Who’s claiming otherwise, Lorilu? I wasn’t. I was emphasizing that there are other differences besides leverage.
I think you may mean you have found no examples of dressage trainers, clinicians, or websites. Knowledgeable trainers in many other disciplines know a lot more.
Google ‘Shanked snaffle’ .
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A snaffle has the reins and the mouthpiece attached to the same ring as the bit hanger. There is no leverage, and the mouthpiece can be solid or broken. Curb bits use a lever or shank and can have solid or broken mouthpiece. The reins and bit hanger are attached to opposite ends of the lever. One pound of pressure on a snaffle via the reins is one pound of pressure on the horses mouth. With a curb bit the amount of pressure is magnified depending on how long the lever/shank is. A “knowledgeable trainer in another discipline” would be trainer John Lyons, whose website and now long-gone discussion board are where I first learned about bits and leverage. I’ve seen many articles on the differences between snaffle and curb bits, and Wikipedia has a couple of good ones.
Bit terminology is suffering from years of people riding in broken snaffles when they learn to ride, and assuming that any broken mouthpiece is a snaffle and gentle. Not at all true. Yes, you can google “shanked snaffle” and see that there are bits that are called that from particular manufacturers. That only serves to muddy up the waters. In the end, it is the leverage that makes the difference.
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well here 's 1
http://www.horseforum.com/horse-tack-equipment/bit-information-curb-western-type-bits-69588/
another http://www.horsechannel.com/western-horse-training/bit-advice-10035.aspx
http://www2.ca.uky.edu/horsediscovery/Western_Curb_Bits.pdf
http://extension.uga.edu/publications/detail.html?number=B1379&title=Bits%20101
I could go on.
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and csaper, those are NOT dressage pages. You are welcome.
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I’m sure you can go on, and on, and on…
You quoted another forum, a TV Channel, an 8 yr old pdf, and a 6 yr old publication.
With info compiled by folks just quoting out-dated info they learned as kids or on the internet.
Here is a ported bit with leverage. Is it a a snaffle?
https://www.toklat.com/Products/BP/89-4404
Here is a lovely ported bit that will rotate in the horse’s mouth when the reins are used, hold it in your hand and try it. The rotation and leverage are slight but are there.
www.dressageextensions.com item # 10251-DSC
There are so many hybrid bits, ring/shank configurations and new technologies that many in the bit making industry have decided the safest route is to name only the bit parts, not the bit as a whole.
But catalogues and websites and people still insist on sticking bits in various pigeon holes whether they belong or not.
You are welcome too.
The ported Toklat bit you link to is a snaffle because it has a single ring that the mouthpiece attaches to, as well as the reins and bit hanger. It doesn’t provide any leverage, period. Same with the Srenger Comfort Mouth Snaffle on Dressage Extensions.
Leverage is created by a lever, which is: “A simple machine consisting of a bar that pivots on a fixed support, or fulcrum, and is used to transmit torque. A force applied by pushing down on one end of the lever results in a force pushing up at the other end.” (I coped that off Google.)
The shank on a curb bit is the lever, and the point where the mouthpiece attaches is the fulcrum. I remember, somewhat vaguely, learning this psychics-type stuff when I was in school in the 50s-60s, back when kids got a real education. As noted earlier in this thread, the longer the lever/shank, the more force is applied to the horse’s mouth via the reins, The longer the distance from the end (rein connection) to the fulcrum (mouthpiece) the more force is applied to the horse’s mouth. .A bit moving around in the mouth by whatever means does not apply leverage. It can affect the horse’s performance because of where it applies pressure, such as bars or tongue. A port offers tongue relief and some horses will play with the roller. But if there is not a shank, no matter how long, it is a snaffle. A snaffle is not a “bit part”. it is a type of bit. The part of the bit that is in the mouth is the mouthpiece.
I have always tried to avoid taking shots at people on discussion forums, but csaper58 is in way over his/her head, and ought to quit while still ahead (if that’s still possible). COTHers by and large have way too much experience and knowledge to be put off by ignorance based on opinion versus reference to credible information. Using terminology incorrectly sometimes catches on in our modern society, which can pervert meaning and ultimately wind up in the dictionary. A manufacturer may choose to offer some sort of fancy hybrid bit and give it a fancy hybrid name. In the case of bits and bitting, there is well-established nomenclature, such as is used by the venerable Sprenger company and others. In the end it will either be a snaffle or a curb depending on how the reins attach vis-a-vis the mouthpiece, and the presence or absence of a lever.
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Thank you walktrot - agree 100%. I tried to hit “Like” but unfortunately, my computer isn’t allowing me to today.
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Absolutely a snaffle
No idea takes me to the home page
So according to you this is a snaffle?
[ATTACH=JSON]{“data-align”:“none”,“data-size”:“large”,“data-attachmentid”:9823942}[/ATTACH]
It has a single jointed mouth
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You should really have looked at a picture, and read thru the description be fore you began espousing your superiority…
The established nomenclature in changing in many areas of equine sport, which is why so many in this Dressage forum are having trouble understanding Western, and Western Dressage and the equipment used.
http://www.dressageextensions.com/ How come the women are pictured in the undies and Carl Hester is in suit?
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Bold portion with in the text above is mine.
Absolutely a snaffle
Absolutely a ported leverage bit labeled a snaffle
Still a snaffle, you can’t rewrite the books to suit yourself…snaffle, with ‘hooks’ still a snaffle
It is a shank bit with a snaffle mouth piece. According to the nomenclature of many on this thread, is both a curb bit and a snaffle bit.
It is 100% a curb bit, with a jointed mouthpiece, I cannot even get my head around the thought that anything about it is a snaffle, it would be funny if it weren’t so scary.
Sorry you weren’t able to puzzle out plugging the item number into the search box. I’ll have to do better at spoon feeding you the info
Thanks for your apology, shame you can’t admit that your labeling of bits is as out of wack as your linking abilities
The simple designations ‘snaffle bit’ or ‘curb bit’ are no longer viable as accurate classifications, and should be phased out in my opinion.
You are entitled to your opinion, as wrong as it is. The majority of us do not appear to struggle with the very simple truth, is simply is NOT the mouth piece that defines the bit, but the cheeks. Go read @walktrot 's post again and try to understand it this time
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The bit pictured is a hybrid for sure. Based on my earlier argument, I would call it a snaffle with a shank because the cheek pieces are not fixed. Some posters have disabused me of this argument due to the concept of leverage.
But I am wondering if you are calling a “snaffle mouth” something with a joint (csaper58)? Because there are non-jointed snaffles. (Just asking for clarification, not looking to piss anybody off. Sorry for misreading your name and calling you casper earlier.)
“The majority of us do not appear to struggle with the very simple truth, is simply is NOT the mouth piece that defines the bit, but the cheeks.” Yep. No argument there from me.
Also, I’ve seen a lot of discussion about the nature of the leverage with curb bits. They also apply leverage to the poll, not just the mouth.
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Both the mouth and the cheek piece must be considered when define the bit. Snaffle and curb are for me types of mouth pieces.
A snaffle mouth piece is is a mouth broken in one or more places that bends such that the rings or cheeks can or almost touch, a snaffle folds.
The myler bit that I linked to does not fold at all, and is ported, so a variety of a curb mouth piece. The slots in the cheek pieces for the headstall and the reins give the bit leverage.
So why does a curb mouth piece with leverage-creating cheek pieces = a snaffle bit to dressage folk?
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“So why does a curb mouth piece with leverage-creating cheek pieces = a snaffle bit to dressage folk?” See photo above. No joint in the mouthpiece, no shanks. Snaffle.
But, the mouthpiece does not a snaffle make. A Pelham is considered a snaffle to “dressage folk” (or a Tom Thumb) because the shanks swivel as has been said multiple times. That affects the amount of leverage.
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See, this is the point, if you take a bunch of pictures of mouthpieces, without the cheeks in view you have no idea what bit they are from, show the cheeks and you can tell straight away, snaffle or curb.
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Did you look at the photo I posted? It shows the entire bit - cheeks (eggbutt in this case) and all. What are you talking about?
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continuing here is SO not worth it. I am quite old enough, and educated enough, (in BOTH the western AND dressage traditions) to not be annoyed by a certain poster’s digs at me and others. Call it whatever the F you like. The rest of us know that leverage means curb and single rings are snaffles, regardless of mouthpieces. Hooks and slots add leverage when used which is why that bit is NOT legal in “snaffle only” dressage levels (Intro through Second). In fact, it is not legal AT ALL at any level in Dressage. Just be careful if you enter a show with bit restrictions. The judges will probably not agree with your opinions.
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Why do you consider information that contradicts your beliefs to be personal digs?
And your position is that all ringed bits are snaffles. Even the ones not legal in ‘snaffle only’ dressage, those are just illegal snaffles with leverage.
Oh… but wait, you said above and I’ll quote “leverage means curb”.
Your confused argument is why many feel that all the new hybrid bits on the market require a re-evaluation of the system of bit classification. Hostility toward that discussion is what is “SO not worth it.”
The discussion is especially valuable as many now buy from catalogs or websites, with visually uninformative pictures, and negligible descriptions, put together by folks that don’t even ride.
