I was agreeing with you…badly it seems
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You mean the ones that keep labeling bits with shanks “snaffles” it is so annoying
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I find folks selling ‘Shanked Snaffles’ ( and correctly including the mouth piece type + the cheek style in the name ) much less annoying than the ones who keep labeling mullen mouth and ported mouth bits with round leverage creating cheeks ‘Snaffles’.
Seeing this is a thread about Western Dressage then we really need to follow their guide lines
http://westerndressageassociation.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/WD_Equipment_Guide-rev1-20-2017.pdf
Snaffle Bits
A snaffle bit may be used on a horse of any age being ridden at any level.
A rider must use two hands with a snaffle bit.
A snaffle bit offers no leverage or curb action, and does not have shanks of any configuration.
Curb B
it
s
:
There is no discrimination against a
ny standard Western bit. A stan
dard Western curb bit may be used
on a horse of any
age being ridden at any level.
A standard Western bit is defined as having a shank with a maximum length overall of 8 1/2"
(215.9 mm). The mouthpiece
will consist of a metal
bar 5/16" (7.9 mm) to 3/4" 19.05 mm) in
diameter as measured one inch in from the shank. The bars may be inlaid but must be smooth
or latex
wrapped. (The bars may be encased in smooth 5/16" (7.9 mm) to 3/4" (19.05 mm) in
diameter tu
bular barrels that rotate around the bars). Nothing
may protrude above or below
the mouthpiece (bar) such as extensions, prongs or rivets designed to intimidate the horse.
Rollers attached to the
center of the bit are acceptable, and may extend below the b
ar. Jointed
mouthpieces are acceptable and may consist of two or three pieces and
may have one or two
joints. A three
piece mouthpiece may include a connecting ring of 1 ¼ inch (31.75 mm) or less in
diameter or a connecting
flat bar of 3/8 to ¾ inch (9.5mm
–
19.05 mm) measured top to bottom
with a maximum length of 2" (50 mm), which lies flat in the mouth, or a roller
or port as
described herein. The port must be no higher than 3 ½ inches (88.9 mm) maximum with roller(s)
and covers acceptable. Jointed
mouth
pieces, half
breeds and spade bits are standard. Wire on
the braces (above the bars and attaching to the spade) of a traditional spade bit is
acceptable
Sorry about the crazy formatting on the cut and paste.
When it comes to it, you have to go back to the rule book, especially if asking questions about judging.
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From your rule book quote…" There is no discrimination against any standard western bit" and " jointed mouth pieces are acceptable [this is in the section discussing shank/curb bits]"
A shanked snaffle-mouth bit is a standard western bit and used quite often in western dressage.
Apparently many dressage folks can’t recognize it the way it’s described in the rule book. So perhaps some new language is appropriate.
I simply don;t get your point, jointed mouth pieces are acceptable in a CURB bit, yes, yes they are, you can have a shank that is jointed, it does not make it a snaffle.
Just because you want to change the world does not make you right…there is no such think as a shanked snaffle mouth bit in ANY discipline…
SHANKS = CURB
No Shanks = Snaffle, it is amazing to me that is is a hard concept for you to grasp…
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Bold added to the quote above is mine.
I can tell you don’t get it. For a start, the shanks are not jointed, the mouth piece is jointed.
The fact that you can’t keep your terminology straight kind of proves my point.
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Just because people call it a snaffle mouth, doesn’t make it a snaffle. It’s pretty common to call any broken mouthed curb bit a snaffle mouth or a more mild bit, and you see plenty of inexperienced western people putting their green horses in snaffle mouthed short shanked curb bits because to them it’s the most mild bit out there and western horses HAVE to be in curbs, even if they aren’t trained to neck rein.
The “snaffle mouth” curb isn’t even a more mild bit, as the pinch action of the bit combined with the leverage of the shanks can make it severe. It’s still a curb bit and it still uses leverage and it’s more uneducation or confusion about the terminology that makes people think it’s an actual snaffle bit.
Here’s an example. This bit is listed as a snaffle because of the jointed mouth, even though it’s clearly a curb. It has shanks and is used with a curb chain to create leverage.
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I guess you are talking about this
I simply don;t get your point, jointed mouth pieces are acceptable in a CURB bit, yes, yes they are, you can have a shank that is jointed, it does not make it a snaffle.
See that is what happens when one slips into colloquial terms, I was using that as you would around here, “a SHANKED BIT” or for short a jointed shank…I am aware that shanks are not jointed…I agree that was confusing, but does not negate the point in hand…
These bits curb or snaffle?
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My answer, I have no idea…
these?
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To me Snaffle, snaffle, curb, snaffle,
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Yup snaffle, curb, snaffle snaffle…
I can tell the difference from the shanks, not the mouthpieces, makes the shanks the difference
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I think you really don’t understand.
Some folks just have curb and snaffle stuck in their brain and for them that’s the only way things can be.
Many more folks are seeing the need for additional clarity
Can’t enlarge the thumbnails but what I see is
First group…1.a ported mouth-piece 2.a french mouth/dog bone mouth-piece 3. a barrel style mullen mouth-piece 4.a smooth, curved mullen mouth-piece
Second group… pics are too cropped [Yes I know they are the same 4 bits]
Last group… 1.a ported, alloy, mouth-piece with eggbutt rings ( this bit will create some rotation/leverage within the mouth due to the asymmetry in height and where the rein bites onto the ring.) 2…a french mouth/dog bone, no pinch, mouth-piece with swept-back swiveling shanks 3.a barrel style mullen mouth-piece with D-rings 4.a smooth, curved mullen mouth-piece with eggbutt rings.
I would not designate any of those bits as snaffle or curb. Those two term become more meaningless and misleading with every new bit that comes to market in the horse world.
I think it is more that everyone totally is reading what you are writing but not agreeing with you. It has nothing to do with not understanding you. Not agreeing =/= Not understanding.
Having just studied these things for pony club I am on the same page as the posts below. Leverage = curb, no leverage = snaffle. It does not matter if the mouthpiece has joints or does not have joints, if it is a direct action bit it is a snaffle. If it is leverage then it is a curb.
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Exactly Trubandloki, I understand totally what they are saying, they are just wrong, wrong in the general sense, and more importantly totally wrong when it comes to the rules in Western Dressage, which is where we started, where there is clear distinctions between curb and snaffle, in both American and Canadian rule books.
a person can rewrite the rules for their own world, but when a discipline has a set of rules you go by them!
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Thank you KBC. You have been terrific in clarifying and certainly have answered my question in the OP!
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Based on a discussion I found on site called “The Cultured Cowboy,” it appears that many western riders refer to the broken mouthpiece in a snaffle bit as a “snaffle mouthpiece”. They probably consider it to be milder because we all know we learn to ride in a “mild” bit with a broken mouthpiece, a snaffle, and many, including csaper58, imported “snaffle” to refer to the broken mouthpiece, not the bit. Csaper58 says “Some folks just have curb and snaffle stuck in their brain and for them that’s the only way things can be.” Yes, you are right, you have that stuck in your brain, but your way is not the only, let alone the right way.
Snaffle and curb are types of BITS, not mouthpieces. A mouthpiece is part of a bit, just like the seat is part of a saddle. We ride in a saddle, though, not a seat, and use a bit in the bridle. The mouthpiece is the part of the bit that goes in the horse’s mouth.
If you consult the USEF [English] Dressage rules, lower level dressage riders are required to ride with a snaffle bit in a snaffle bridle. There are pictures of dozens of snaffle bits approved for use in competition. All are some version of a ring (loose, egg butt, D, full cheek) which passes through the end of the mouthpiece and allows for attachment of the bridle and reins to the ring Not all snaffle bits are approved for competition. For example, up until a few years ago no bits manufactured by the Myler company were legal for use in dressage; now a few are. The Baucher (hanging or dropped cheek bit) is the only bit that looks different because it has a short straight piece attached to the ring that holds the bit onto the bridle. But the reins and headstall are still connected to the ring, which is what makes it a snaffle. There is, and cannot be any leverage. The rules also have copious specifications that detail modifications that can and cannot be made to a snaffle. There also is reference to the unjointed mouthpiece which is legal for a snaffle. A mullen mouth, which is solid with no port, is a legal snaffle bit.
At upper levels, including FEI, riders are required to ride in the double bridle with bit and bridoon . A bridoon is defined in the rules as a “snaffle bit used together with a curb bit to form a double bridle.” Again, there are copious pictures of approved bits which are curb and snaffle. Interestingly, there don’t appear to be any approved curb bits with a broken mouthpiece. As with the snaffle, there are many restrictions and specifications for each type of bit. I happen to ride my gelding in a Sprenger KK Ultra bridoon because it was $45 at a Dover tent sale vs. $130 retail for the snaffle, and I didn’t recognize it at the time as having smaller rings. The mouthpiece is identical to the regular snaffle. He goes quite nicely in it.
If you look at USEF rules for Western Dressage, you will find (and I copied this from the rules):
"A snaffle offers no leverage or curb action.
"A standard snaffle is a conventional O-Ring, Egg Butt, Full Cheek (keepers optional) or D-Ring, all with rings …. The inside of the circumference of the ring must be free of rein, curb or headstall attachments that would provide leverage.
“Curb Bit: There is no discrimination against any standard Western bit. … A standard Western bit is defined as having a shank … Reins must be attached to each shank.”
The Kimberwick (from Kimberwick in England so it would be an “English” bit) is a prohibited bit in the USEF rules. It is a type of curb bit because it has shanks, along with D-shaped rings and a curb chain. It has a broken mouthpiece. It is considered quite harsh by many because it combines the nutcracker action of the broken mouthpiece with the leverage of the shanks. I assume our friend csaper58 would call it a snaffle. He would be wrong.
A Pelham bit is a sort of a hybrid because it has two sets of reins. One set is attached to rings at the ends of the mouthpiece, like a snaffle. The other is attached to the ends of the shanks. It’s supposed to function similarly to a double bridle. I recently found a picture of me at age 11 in 1959 when I learned to ride on a very large gelding called Cardinal Richelieu, who went in a Pelham, unjointed with a relatively low port. I never got the hang of those two sets of reins at all and surely did not understand, and probably still don’t today, why he went in that bit vs a bit with one rein like everybody else did.
The USEF Western Dressage rules aren’t as detailed as the English Dressage rules, and don’t have dozens of pictures of allowable bits, but the terminology about bits is pretty consistent in terms of describing snaffle and curb bits, their form and function. Curb bits clearly are associated with leverage. Snaffle bits do not allow any leverage. “Western bits” have shanks. Shanks provide leverage. There are multiple mouthpieces that can be used in either. The USEF may or may not have the respect of all in its role in the equestrian world, but it does offer some sort of standardization through its rules, at least in terms of bits and associated terminology, and it clearly delineates what it does and does not approve for bitting of show horses.
OP asked about “light contact” in a Western bit. Still a good question looking for an answer. A Western, shanked, or leverage bit, multiples the amount of pressure the reins put on the mouth, based on the length of the shanks:
“The pivot point to where the reins are attached at the end of the long shank (divided by) the pivot point to where the curb chain is attached at the end of the short shank.” If there isn’t a shank and pivot point, like on a see-saw, there can’t be any leverage.
A curb with a 5" rein shank and a 1" curb shank generates a force ratio of 5:1. So if you put 10 pounds of pressure on the reins, you get 50 pounds of pressure on the mouth, versus 10 pounds from the unleveraged snaffle. If you want 10 pounds of pressure out of that shanked bit, you can only do 1/5 the pressure, or 2 pounds on the reins. I guess that’s the mathematical answer to OP’s question about “light contact” in a Western bit.
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The type of mind set…
that looks forward to the performance of rigidly defined exacting tasks, often finds the acceptance of new ideas difficult…
and, not surprisingly, worships rules to the point the rules become dogma…
and finds any discussion of adapting, correcting, or replacing, the antiquated lexicon used within those rules to be heresy…
and attacks or blindly ignores any source of divergence from the beliefs they hold as incontrovertibly true…
is the mind set of a great segment of dressage enthusiasts.
That is why Dressage is dying in so many places.
And having to recruit free thinking western folk to bolster it’s failing ranks.
“That is why Dressage is dying in so many places.
And having to recruit free thinking western folk to bolster it’s failing ranks.” :lol::lol::lol::lol:
Thanks for the laugh.
Seriously though, thank you walktrot for the thorough response. I wish I could hit more than one “like”.
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What sort of bat shit crazy planet are you living on?
I do not worship the rules, but strangely enough I am a competitor and I obey the rules as set, or I don’t get to compete. At the same time I am active in suggesting rule changes and asking for clarifications, as there IS some confusion and oversights in the Canadian Rule Book…but they are very clear about snaffles and curbs.
One moment of total hilarity on my point, we had a clinician come up from the States, who told me that the full check snaffle I was riding in was illegal, because I had keepers on it…that made it a leverage bit…lose the keepers and it was OK as a snaffle…I HATE full cheeks without keepers so switched to a snaffle.
That is why Dressage is dying in so many places.
And having to recruit free thinking western folk to bolster it’s failing ranks.
I am pretty certain that Dressage is not dying because it rightly recognizes the difference between snaffle and curb bits…you would need to look to other reasons. The dressage shows around here tend to fill up within a couple of days of the prize list being published, and always have waiting lists, and our Stewards are very clear about bits!
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Dressage didn’t go out and “recruit” western riders - THEY came to US seeking to create a “new” discipline for the “western” horse.
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Bold added to the post quoted is mine.
Csaper58 what you posted above
[quote]Thank you for proving my point that many participants in dressage can’t abide the thought of, much less any discussion of, the possibility there is out-dated terminology used in their sport. {/quote]
This total horsepucky. I’m not a participant in dressage but think you are totally wrong. Long time western and winglish (who has done quite well at regular hunter shows but I digress) rider here and even I know that anything with a shank is a curb regardless of what the manufacturers/catalogues call it. Heck, even AQHA has it figured out for western showing. Anything with a shank is a curb. Go take a look at the handbook, it’s available online for non-members.
It’s not just dressage riders who have figured out that anything with a shank and a curbstrap has leverage which equals a curb. Just because manufacturers call something with a broken mouthpiece and shanks a shanked snaffle, doesn’t make it a snaffle, it’s just an old (very old) way of stating the bit has a broken mouthpiece and shanks. It’s not terribly complicated or confusing to most people. A tom thumb by North American standards is a shanked bit and a curb. A snaffle does not have leverage period regardless of what someone may choose to call it. Learned all this pre-interwebz, it’s not new or dressage.
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