Western Dressage Question

[KBC]

[QUOTE=jvanrens;n9829489]
Csaper58 what you posted above

Thank you for proving my point that many participants in dressage can’t abide the thought of, much less any discussion of, the possibility there is out-dated terminology used in their sport. {/quote]

This total horsepucky. I’m not a participant in dressage but think you are totally wrong. Long time western and winglish (who has done quite well at regular hunter shows but I digress) rider here and even I know that anything with a shank is a curb regardless of what the manufacturers/catalogues call it. Heck, even AQHA has it figured out for western showing. Anything with a shank is a curb. Go take a look at the handbook, it’s available online for non-members.

It’s not just dressage riders who have figured out that anything with a shank and a curbstrap has leverage which equals a curb. Just because manufacturers call something with a broken mouthpiece and shanks a shanked snaffle, doesn’t make it a snaffle, it’s just an old (very old) way of stating the bit has a broken mouthpiece and shanks. It’s not terribly complicated or confusing to most people. A tom thumb by North American standards is a shanked bit and a curb. A snaffle does not have leverage period regardless of what someone may choose to call it. Learned all this pre-interwebz, it’s not new or dressage.

Thanks for a word of common sense, brings back my faith in the usual good info that I read on COTH,

@csaper58 I was wrong, you are not bay shit crazy, you are a whole nother level above that…I’ll stay with the widely recognized divisions between curb and snaffle, confident in the knowledge that I will be able to converse with people in every discipline and we will understand each other…you live in whatever strange world you want…AGAIN this thread is about Western Dressage, and the classifications are very clear, end of story…

[csaper58]

[quote="“KBC,post:81,topic:434884”]

@jvanrens

Csaper58 what you posted above

Thanks for a word of common sense, brings back my faith in the usual good info that I read on COTH,

@csaper58 I was wrong, you are not bay shit crazy, you are a whole nother level above that…I’ll stay with the widely recognized divisions between curb and snaffle, confident in the knowledge that I will be able to converse with people in every discipline and we will understand each other…you live in whatever strange world you want…AGAIN this thread is about Western Dressage, and the classifications are very clear, end of story…

Your borderline hysterical name-calling tirade again proves your close-mindedness, and fear of the discussion.

You may abstain from, or contribute to, the discussion… but it is not up to you to dismiss, or censor it.

[Kirby_s_Keeper]

I can’t believe that this is still being discussed but it is entertaining:winkgrin:

[alibi_18]

@csaper58

That is why Dressage is dying in so many places.

And having to recruit free thinking western folk to bolster it’s failing ranks.

Western Dressage was created because some folks liked riding western but didn’t like what the western disciplines had to offer. Western riders thought dressage looked fun and interresting enough to copy most of its rules, tests and judging system.

“Free thinking western folks”… yeah right.

As for the snaffle / curb discussion… You are wrong but also entitled to your opinion.

[cnm161]

@csaper58

Thank you for proving my point that many participants in dressage can’t abide the thought of, much less any discussion of, the possibility there is out-dated terminology used in their sport.

Hang on. What?

In my industry, jargon varies from company to company and sometimes within each company. I could go on a crusade about why my version is better than everyone else’s and everyone’s just behind the times and backwards, or I could use the terminology that best fits the audience I’m trying to communicate with and carry on with my life in the blissful knowledge that at least my message is understood by its recipients. I tend to choose the latter because it’s a whole lot less stressful.

More to the point in dressage-- if you’re going to play in that sandbox, you’d better know those rules. Not a single TD is going to care if I call it a snaffle. The TD is going to go by what the rules say.

[KBC]

[quote="“csaper58,post:82,topic:434884”]

@KBC

Your borderline hysterical name-calling tirade again proves your close-mindedness, and fear of the discussion.

You may abstain from, or contribute to, the discussion… but it is not up to you to dismiss, or censor it.

oh I feel all sorts of honoured, I am allowed to contribute, well thank you so much.

Name calling tirade? I think that you have all sorts of issues beyond not being able to identify the difference between curbs and snaffles…can’t recognize a tirade or more importantly what is not a tirade…but carry on, I give you permission

[walktrot]

@cnm161

More to the point in dressage-- if you’re going to play in that sandbox, you’d better know those rules. Not a single TD is going to care if I call it a snaffle. The TD is going to go by what the rules say.

Huh? If you ride up to the TD in your “snaffle” bit with shanks, the TD is going to call it a curb. And go by what the rules say as you ride off into the sunset.

I work in a psychiatric hospital (coding, not working with patients) so I know that “bat-shit crazy” is not an actual diagnosis but rather a symptom. Of what? There are several options. Use “jargon” all you want at work. Apparently precision isn’t necessary there, and you can live a blissful existence saying whatever comes to your mind to suit your audience. Sound familiar???

[Mondo]

I have detected from csaper a certain disdain for dressage. Of course we are going to go by the rule book for competition. Why wouldn’t we? There is no point competing if you are going to be disqualified by flouting the rules. But those Western riders who want to play in our 60 x 20 meter dressage sandbox, need to abide by our rules such as they are. If you find dressage so off-putting, why even follow this thread? You never did answer my question about whether you believe a snaffle has to have a jointed mouthpiece. (Because it doesn’t)

walktrot - I interpreted cnm’s post to be agreeing with you in that it doesn’t matter what you call your bit, it either complies with the rules or it doesn’t.

[cnm161]

@walktrot

Huh? If you ride up to the TD in your “snaffle” bit with shanks, the TD is going to call it a curb. And go by what the rules say as you ride off into the sunset.

I work in a psychiatric hospital (coding, not working with patients) so I know that “bat-shit crazy” is not an actual diagnosis but rather a symptom. Of what? There are several options. Use “jargon” all you want at work. Apparently precision isn’t necessary there, and you can live a blissful existence saying whatever comes to your mind to suit your audience. Sound familiar???

Irony alert: It appears I was unclear in my previous communication. Stings a bit.

I agree if I show up in a bit with shanks, the TD is not going to care what I personally call it. The TD will call it a curb (agreeing with the rule book) and will react accordingly.

[TMares]

I call 'em macaroons. So Tasty!!

[Belowthesalt]

[QUOTE=TwoRoads;n9818867]

A baucher bit creates a very small amount of leverage but is still considered a snaffle. I think there is a little bit of a grey area here. Although I would say that to be a snaffle you would need more direct contact with the bit, the reins can’t be in a ring, below the bit, in a way that creates leverage. So like a kimberwick or elevator. If you ignore the slots and just attach the reins like to a normal D ring or loose ring it’s basically working as a snaffle, but as soon as you use one of those lower or outside rings to create leverage you no longer have a snaffle.[/QUOTE

If Hilda Gurney says a Baucher does not have any leverage, I’m gonna believe her (and she did). However, I agree that if you have the reins on the upper ring of a shanked “snaffle,” then it works like a snaffle, but the minute you use the lower rings/shank - it isn’t a snaffle any longer. Ditto for “snaffle” mouthed pelhams. A Tom Thumb is a curb, “snaffle” mouth or not. I evented my first event horse in a rubber mullen mouth Tom Thumb with a curb chain (key word “CURB chain.” I would hever call it a snaffle. Are people using shanked “snaffles” withOUT a curb strap/chain? A grey area indeed.

[KBC]

@Belowthesalt

Are people using shanked “snaffles” withOUT a curb strap/chain? A grey area indeed.

Now that is a very good question…I was lazy tacking up my mare the other day, and did not tighten her curb chain, it wasn’t until I saw a picture afterwards and saw the shanks in a straight line with the reins did it dawn on me what I had done…and certainly explained why I wasn’t getting the response I did the first time I rode her in the curb.

Does not change the description of the bit, still a broken mouth curb, but without an effective curb chain in place it was certainly acting as a snaffle.

[walktrot]

Sorry CNM, yanked on the wrong chain!

[csaper58]

@Mondo

I have detected from csaper a certain disdain for dressage.

Nope, I don’t disdain dressage at all. Just all the people who try to police it from the bleachers.

[alibi_18]

@csaper58

Nope, I don’t disdain dressage at all. Just all the people who try to police it from the bleachers.

You know that there is a lot of us who are not in the bleachers but rather in the sandbox…

[BigMama1]

@Kirby's Keeper

I can’t believe that this is still being discussed but it is entertaining:winkgrin:

Right? If it were taking place in CE there would have been 20 reports by now and a ton of threats to shut the whole forum down :lol:

[KBC]

@csaper58

Nope, I don’t disdain dressage at all. Just all the people who try to police it from the bleachers.

So you ride dressage? Sorry I thought from your attitude that you didn’t.

[lorilu]

@csaper58

Nope, I don’t disdain dressage at all. Just all the people who try to police it from the bleachers.

Reading and following the rulebook is hardly “policing from the bleachers.” As for me, I DO have disdain for those who think the rules do not apply to them because somehow the accepted correct definitions (as defined in the rulebook) is “wrong”. If you want to play in the game, you have to follow the rules AS WRITTEN. If you think a bit with shanks should qualify as a snaffle, why not write to the rules committee(s) and present your point? I am sure the FEI, USEF, and USDF are in need of “experts”. Did you know ANYONE can propose a rules change? WHy not propose it?

[csaper58]

@lorilu

Reading and following the rulebook is hardly “policing from the bleachers.” As for me, I DO have disdain for those who think the rules do not apply to them because somehow the accepted correct definitions (as defined in the rulebook) is “wrong”. If you want to play in the game, you have to follow the rules AS WRITTEN. If you think a bit with shanks should qualify as a snaffle, why not write to the rules committee(s) and present your point? I am sure the FEI, USEF, and USDF are in need of “experts”. Did you know ANYONE can propose a rules change? WHy not propose it?

Apparently you are reading but not following.

I have never, in this thread or any other, advocated disregarding the rules set down in the USEF rule book.

I am advocating reviewing the language used by equestrians of every discipline around the world to describe bits and devising a system of nomenclature that can consistently, and accurately, describe bits… while giving a clue to how each is meant to function.

And yes, the tedious, vehement, diatribes that so many of the most active posters in the Dressage Forum engage in on this BB is exactly ‘policing from the bleachers’.

How can you people have a 25 page nearly 500 response thread admonishing and belittling 1 person participating in your sport… and on another thread wonder why your classes aren’t filling and if your sport is dying?

He may be a poor rider, he may or may not be a trainer, but take a step back and assess how your hyper-critical diatribe is making all dressage riders look.

That thread, and the similar response to any topic that challenges the archaic mind-set of your hyper-critical DQ-subset makes all dressage riders look like bored, narrow-minded, cliquish, judgemental, harpies.

But hey, y’all are just having fun in your sandbox…oops… I mean dressage arena.

[KBC]

@csaper58

Apparently you are reading but not following.

I have never, in this thread or any other, advocated disregarding the rules set down in the USEF rule book.

I am advocating reviewing the language used by equestrians of every discipline around the world to describe bits and devising a system of nomenclature that can consistently, and accurately, describe bits… while giving a clue to how each is meant to function.

If it aint broke, why fix it, the language used by equestrians around the world works, and the current system actually describes how bits are meant to function. Good luck with your one person crusade to change the whole world, that is a huge ambition.

And yes, the tedious, vehement, diatribes that so many of the most active posters in the Dressage Forum engage in on this BB is exactly ‘policing from the bleachers’.

How can you people have a 25 page nearly 500 response thread admonishing and belittling 1 person participating in your sport… and on another thread wonder why your classes aren’t filling and if your sport is dying?

Oh hilarious, people pointing out that a person is way in over their head, is a charlatan in the way they market themselves is why dressage is dying…certainly isn’t dying up here, still have wait lists for shows, dressage is alive and well it seems, and certainly won’t be killed off by a message board.

He may be a poor rider, he may or may not be a trainer, but take a step back and assess how your hyper-critical diatribe is making all dressage riders look.

He is an average rider, @McGurk summed it up best, she always had a way with words

“If this guy was just another ammy with delusions of competence, futzing around at Training Level but taking good care of his horse, then I would absolutely agree with you”

He definitely is not a trainer, if he was he would be able to place him self accurately in the correct level to ride at.

That thread, and the similar response to any topic that challenges the archaic mind-set of your hyper-critical DQ-subset makes all dressage riders look like bored, narrow-minded, cliquish, judgemental, harpies.

But hey, y’all are just having fun in your sandbox…oops… I mean dressage arena.

That one is hilarious, not worth responding too, so I will just enjoy the laugh

OH, hang on a minute, I take it we ARE talking about our training level rider scoring 40’s at 4th, and not another wanna be trainer? If it is the latter direct me to it!