Western Dressage Question

[TMares]

QUOTE:
I am advocating reviewing the language used by equestrians of every discipline around the world to describe bits and devising a system of nomenclature that can consistently, and accurately, describe bits… while giving a clue to how each is meant to function.

But…why? Why fret that? I mean that straight up, honest question. NO agenda.

There’s no business nor any societal need to ‘make’ western people call it a curb bit instead of a shanked snaffle or a grazing bit.

There’s also no business need to ‘make’ english people call a pelham a curb if they’d rather call it a pelham. Or vice versa.

In the general sense audiences in both arenas (pun intended) know what’s being discussed, or will ask a few questions. (ex: You mean a Jr Cowhorse? No, it’s a Billy Allen." or "Is that a mullen mouth? No, it’s a Myler comfort snaffle")

And once judges and competition is involved: audiences in all competitions are responsible for reading their governing body’s rule books and ciphering out what’s permitted and what’s not.

At the end of the day, there’s no english grazing bit, and there’s no western pelham, and really, that’s just fine.

[csaper58]

@KBC

If it aint broke, why fix it, the language used by equestrians around the world works, and the current system actually describes how bits are meant to function. Good luck with your one person crusade to change the whole world, that is a huge ambition.

Oh hilarious, people pointing out that a person is way in over their head, is a charlatan in the way they market themselves is why dressage is dying…certainly isn’t dying up here, still have wait lists for shows, dressage is alive and well it seems, and certainly won’t be killed off by a message board.

He is an average rider, @McGurk summed it up best, she always had a way with words

“If this guy was just another ammy with delusions of competence, futzing around at Training Level but taking good care of his horse, then I would absolutely agree with you”

He definitely is not a trainer, if he was he would be able to place him self accurately in the correct level to ride at.

That one is hilarious, not worth responding too, so I will just enjoy the laugh

OH, hang on a minute, I take it we ARE talking about our training level rider scoring 40’s at 4th, and not another wanna be trainer? If it is the latter direct me to it!

Thank you very much for showing how correct my assessment is.

[McGurk]

How can you people have a 25 page nearly 500 response thread admonishing and belittling 1 person participating in your sport… and on another thread wonder why your classes aren’t filling and if your sport is dying?

If that thread was just to critique and belittle a harmless amateur, then it would indeed be horrible and an indictment of the folks posting in it. But you have completely missed the point.

The person being discussed is a fraud and a charlatan who has victimized people, including some of the people posting. It’s not about his riding talent or lack of it; or even about his delusions about his talent. It’s about a pattern of fradulent and aggressive behavior. That thread exists as a warning, not some sort of middle school slam book.

Are some of the posters in it enjoying “outing” him a little too much? Maybe. Has it become a little bit of a pile on? Probably. But that doesn’t change the fact that it’s a public service to out him, to make sure his potential pool of victims have been alerted.

[KBC]

@csaper58

Thank you very much for showing how correct my assessment is.

You are most welcome…now where is the promised sarcasm font when you need it?

[MudMagnet]

So are we going to be marked down/DQ’d for using a curb/shanked/shankedsnafflecurbwhatever bit two handed or not?

[Spudsmyguy]

@Mondo

strap used on a western snaffle is used to stop the bit from going through the horses mouth not as a curb strap.” True and I understand that is the reason given. It doesn’t make any sense to me as the rings of the bit should prevent it from going through the horse’s mouth. Good lord, I would hope nobody is pulling that hard to one side!

It doesn’t take much pressure to cause the bit rings to slide through the horse’s mouth and no, they don’t prevent it from happening. I thought the same until I tried it on a horse and found I definitely needed a curb strap.

[SillyHorse]

@csaper58

@KBC

If it aint broke, why fix it, the language used by equestrians around the world works, and the current system actually describes how bits are meant to function. Good luck with your one person crusade to change the whole world, that is a huge ambition.

Oh hilarious, people pointing out that a person is way in over their head, is a charlatan in the way they market themselves is why dressage is dying…certainly isn’t dying up here, still have wait lists for shows, dressage is alive and well it seems, and certainly won’t be killed off by a message board.

He is an average rider, @McGurk summed it up best, she always had a way with words

“If this guy was just another ammy with delusions of competence, futzing around at Training Level but taking good care of his horse, then I would absolutely agree with you”

He definitely is not a trainer, if he was he would be able to place him self accurately in the correct level to ride at.

That one is hilarious, not worth responding too, so I will just enjoy the laugh

OH, hang on a minute, I take it we ARE talking about our training level rider scoring 40’s at 4th, and not another wanna be trainer? If it is the latter direct me to it!

Thank you very much for showing how correct my assessment is.

[Paint_Party]

@MudMagnet

So are we going to be marked down/DQ’d for using a curb/shanked/shankedsnafflecurbwhatever bit two handed or not?

No.

I showed my horse to Level 3, was schooling Level 4 in a curb bit with split reins held in both hands. And I always maintained light, even contact.

For me it was vital to choose the right curb bit for Western Dressage so I could develop and keep that steady, light contact. You want to be able to collect and lengthen strides without your horse backing too far off the contact. It’s not at all like riding a western pleasure horse in the show pen.

I used short shanked bits with a low or medium port, loose cheeks and a hinged or rotating centerpiece in the mouth, similar to a Myler. That allowed me to achieve better lateral movements and keep my horse supple through his jaw and neck.

[smoofox]

Wow - a zombie thread rises from the depths after 4 years! But it was still an interesting read so thanks for reviving it. I had forgotten about our dear friend csaper58 - he who loathed dressage and anything else he thought would demonstrate his superior knowledge and expertise over all of us poor dumb sods.

[Mondo]

Thanks smoofox. I thought it was really odd that I was seeing notifications for responses to this ancient thread.

[ladyj79]

I just started reading this and saw csaper and went wait a minute, that person has definitely been banned for YEARS…only then did I note the date

[Paint_Party]

Oh dear! Guess I didn’t realize this was an Old Timey Thread, and that the (apparently) infamous csaper58 had made numerous posts within. I was just responding to Mud Magnet’s recent post.

Although I just read the entire thread and almost wish I’d been here for csaper58’s grossly misguided treatise on “What Makes a Snaffle vs. What Makes a Curb Bit.”

[mvp]

I know it’s masochistic to add to this thread, as I got b!tch-slapped good for posting on here a while back.

But I think the choice of bit, and the two-handed use of a leverage bit and the idea that classical dressage world’s philosophy of bitting should be in play here are really, really important issues. IMO, they are often misunderstood by folks who haven’t spent time in both Dressage and Classical Western riding (let’s say of the California Bridle Horse tradition). Or they are misunderstood (sometimes willfully) by folks who don’t want to learn about the Other.

So I’ll stick my hand in the meat grinder one more time with this additional fact:

I attended a WDAA “Train the Trainers” symposium held in SoCal in 2015 or so. Two of the folks who were on the board (and the founding boarder) were there and teaching. As I recall, Cliff Swanson and Frances Carbonnel were the main presenters. I believe both of them were among the founding members of the whole shebang.

In any case, when the question of riding two-handed with a leverage bit came up, the rather halting answer (that I believe came from Swanson) was: “Compromises were made.”

The background and context to that is that Western Dressage was founded by a group of Morgan folks, as well as though who owned stock breed horses who weren’t finding what they wanted in their respective show worlds. “They wanted something else to do with their horses, a place to compete and a way to make progress” was the sentiment. The Morgan folks, in particular, had horses that were/are too hot to really fit into the very specialized Western Pleasure mold. In addition, lots of these folks were “of a certain age” and so perhaps wanted tack and a way of riding that made them feel safe, even at the “amped up” atmosphere of a horse show.

I believe the needs of the founding members’ is the basis for Swanson’s “compromise.” Knowing more about how the Bridle Horse folks do it (and I"m a baby at this, but an interested one), and hearing where the origins of the two-handed riding on a leverage bit came from, from someone who knew, I decided I wouldn’t pursue that. I don’t care if other folks do want to get their lower-level tests done riding this way, but I’ll do that in a loose ring snaffle. It think there’s less risk to making a training mistake there.

[Paint_Party]

@mvp

I don’t care if other folks do want to get their lower-level tests done riding this way, but I’ll do that in a loose ring snaffle. It think there’s less risk to making a training mistake there.

Just so you know, I completely agree with you.

I may do some lower level WD tests with my new young horse this summer. It will definitely be in a plain ol’ snaffle on a western bridle.

But my older horse, the one I showed in the so-called upper levels of WD, had already been western show-trained and in a curb for years. Believe me, I tried going to a snaffle bit but it just didn’t work for him. So I used the mildest curb I could. Ultimately, it didn’t feel that much different than showing my huntseat equitation horses in a Tom Thumb pelham… except, of course, without a snaffle rein.

But yes, it was indeed a compromise I had to make in order to compete that particular horse in WD at that particular point in his life. And I’m happy to report, he did really well! It was the one type of competition he actually enjoyed doing.

[mvp]

@Paint_Party

@mvp

I don’t care if other folks do want to get their lower-level tests done riding this way, but I’ll do that in a loose ring snaffle. It think there’s less risk to making a training mistake there.

Just so you know, I completely agree with you.

I may do some lower level WD tests with my new young horse this summer. It will definitely be in a plain ol’ snaffle on a western bridle.

But my older horse, the one I showed in the so-called upper levels of WD, had already been western show-trained and in a curb for years. Believe me, I tried going to a snaffle bit but it just didn’t work for him. So I used the mildest curb I could. Ultimately, it didn’t feel that much different than showing my huntseat equitation horses in a Tom Thumb pelham… except, of course, without a snaffle rein.

But yes, it was indeed a compromise I had to make in order to compete that particular horse in WD at that particular point in his life. And I’m happy to report, he did really well! It was the one type of competition he actually enjoyed doing.

See, that means that WD is doing what it should-- giving people a new, (presumably biomechanically correct and therefore helpful to the horse) discipline to participate in. I knew a lot of pros who had clients with beloved western show horses like yours. They were having a great time doing WD.

Good on you for riding a young one in a snaffle. FWIW, really good Western horsemen get a lot of work done in a snaffle and will feel no shame in putting a horse back into it if that’s the right tool for the job.

[quietann]

@Spudsmyguy

It doesn’t take much pressure to cause the bit rings to slide through the horse’s mouth and no, they don’t prevent it from happening. I thought the same until I tried it on a horse and found I definitely needed a curb strap.

There is something slightly different called a bit hobble, which is attached to the snaffle rings in front of the reins and basically just hangs there, but can stop the horse pulling the bit through its mouth. I used to use one if riding in a loose ring snaffle without a cavesson. The ones that are used with a snaffle bit are pretty hard to find, though. Mine is rawhide with regular leather trim, and is quite beautiful.

(Note by snaffle I mean shankless bit…)

[quietann]

@mvp

The background and context to that is that Western Dressage was founded by a group of Morgan folks, as well as though who owned stock breed horses who weren’t finding what they wanted in their respective show worlds. “They wanted something else to do with their horses, a place to compete and a way to make progress” was the sentiment. The Morgan folks, in particular, had horses that were/are too hot to really fit into the very specialized Western Pleasure mold.

Note: my opinion only:

Western Pleasure Morgans go in a curb with plenty of one-handed contact on the reins (unless they are young, in which case they may go in a snaffle or bosal, but few do); in fact, a draped rein is prohibited by the Morgan judging standard for WP. Most go with face on the vertical, or slightly behind it (not correct, and usually penalized). The gait speeds expected have definitely slowed way down over the years, so I think the use of a curb with direct contact is to slow down a naturally lively breed. There are Morgan WP horses who look lovely, but plenty who can be labored because they are being held back. The very low headset seen in stock breed WP isn’t seen in Morgan WP (most of them just aren’t built to go like that.) In fact, the past few years a lot of winning Morgan WP horses have been quite upright in their neck carriage; think parade horse.

link to a video of Acorn Ridge White Socks’ victory pass at the Morgan worlds, one of the winning-est Morgan WP horses yet, and a bit more upright. Note his trainer is one of the masters when it comes to WP. And no… the lope during the class looks nothing like that!

https://richfieldvideoarchive.vhx.tv/morgan-grand-national/videos/mgn18-class-232-acorn-ridge-white-sock-s

(I was there, and I love this horse!)

Western Dressage is not so picky about gait speed, doesn’t lend itself to lots of bling, and is a better fit for those who do not want to have their horse in care of a trainer who controls all aspects of the horse, the rider, and the rider’s use of the horse as is typical in Morgan “show” barns. It’s more amateur-friendly and people are having a great time with it. If Morgan shows offer both kinds of dressage, the WD classes are usually bigger. Same with Ranch Riding.

[cnm161]

What’s everyone riding their western dressage horses in nowadays? The last time I got a western saddle was an embarrassingly long time ago (better measured in decades than years); I’m sure the saddle science/art has improved since then.

Stats: ranch-bred QH gelding who is slightly downhill; dyed-in-the-wool dressage rider looking for a western saddle that best mimics dressage saddle alignment. Oh, and that isn’t too heavy.

[Knights_Mom]

Excuse me that I hadn’t caught up yet and read through all the posts but heres a head up on rule changes coming up

[lorilu]

I have a Harmony WD saddle. It was originally designed for gaited horses, and has panels just like a dressage saddle - and the seat/stirrup placement is very similar. They also have a Light version. Note that Schleese has now designed a WD saddle… http://www.westerndressageridinggear.com/harmony-western-dressage-saddle1.html