Western dressage: showing in a bosal or bitless bridle

[mvp]

@ findeight.

FWIW, it wasn’t the OP who believed that the horse needed more consistent contact in a bosal. I believe it was an FEI judge who said so in comments.

And the pot-stirrer that I am, I can’t help but point out that perhaps an FEI judge doesn’t know jack about how bridle horse training works.

OP, what F8 did say that was right and worth re-reading is the bit about a horse being able to bull through a bosal, riders rubbing the skin off and really, really trashing a horse once you teach him this very “wrong” way to relate to a bosal.

As others have described on other terms, the bosal works on a “signal” or a contrast between when the facial nerves long the horse’s nose are touched and when that touch is released. Holding on too long is the kiss of death; there’s not contrast there, just suffering and no horse will stay sane and trying for too long in that situation.

What the FEI judge might have wanted (and which I’d want too… and I think a top WD person would want, as well as a Bridle Horse Person (I think) is a horse who is what the Dressagists call “through.” That is so say, he is using his whole body. He’s pushing from behind and allowing that energy to flow up to the bit via a relaxed topline and engaged core.

The way Western Disciplines tend to get that (and the type of horse that populates their tradition) and the way Dressagists get that (and their very different horses) can get folks tangled up.

I mention all this mainly because I think you might be getting caught between 'em. IMO, getting a horse who is “Western Light” in the bridle to carry himself and be “through” all.the.time is much harder than it is when you have the consistent contact of the Dressagist. Really, it takes a ton of feel and skill from the rider to produce a horse who responds to the bit (or whatever he’s wearing on his head) as a signal device But! also uses his body to push forward into that. And note: The horse isn’t pushing into contact. This is a little bit theoretical, but I think he’s pushing forward into an uphill posture with a relaxed topline. The “wall in front” is a signal in front that he knows about.

[findeight]

MVP is correct about that. You also need the right horse with the right mind and right conformation (i.e slightly uphill with a good engine and hip/hock angles behind) to pull it off.

Good bridle horse moves different too, kind of slinky, effortless and low. Hard to describe, look at the SBF or NRCHA. Reining has gone in a bit of a different direction lately…that’s a different thread.

Anyway, maybe that FEI judge didn’t express their thoughts well or maybe they needed to get out more. No judge is a god, even though some of them might think so. They can be wrong. No idea here as Western Dressage is something I really don’t know much about other then what I have read but I know how the equipment works and how the horse should respond to it and the other aids.

[csaper58]

It may not be the FEI judge’s fault.

If I am reading the rules correctly, they require in all levels the horse must accept light contact with the bit.

Makes no difference if they wear snaffle bits, curb bits, or bosals.

www.westerndressageassociation.org/western-dressage-rules-tests/

Click on ‘western dressage judges guidelines (rev 01/2015)’.

There is a link to USEF Western Dressage also, and those rules seem to require the same consistent contact no matter the type of bit/bosal.

See section WD 117 in the USEF western dressage PDF

[findeight]

Thanks for that link csaper58. Very enlightening, really enjoyed the pictures.

Thrilled to see the bosal pictured WITH a snaffle or curb bit and that is acceptable. It’s a traditional transitional step between snaffle and bosal and again from bosal to curb. The light contact the rules repeatedly and clearly require would be on the reins to the bit, not the bosal.

Judge was right. Bosal alone is not a great choice for constant light contact. Acceptance of contact willingly is part of the judging criteria. That’s trickier to pull off with a curb then the snaffle but it can be done.

I don’t have a ton of time using a side pull, just rode around in them sometimes. Liked a bosal better. Can’t speak to maintaining constant light contact but…wouldn’t be my choice.
.

[NoSuchPerson]

@csaper58;9029757

It may not be the FEI judge’s fault.

If I am reading the rules correctly, they require in all levels the horse must accept light contact with the bit.

Makes no difference if they wear snaffle bits, curb bits, or bosals.

Back when people first started talking about western dressage, I hoped that they would come up with something based on classical dressage principles but also incorporate and embrace key principles of western riding. Unfortunately, it ended up mostly being regular English dressage in a western saddle. The “must maintain contact” rule and allowing two hands on the curb are examples of that.(end soapbox)

[csaper58]

[QUOTE=NoSuchPerson;9029953]
Back when people first started talking about western dressage, I hoped that they would come up with something based on classical dressage principles but also incorporate and embrace key principles of western riding. Unfortunately, it ended up mostly being regular English dressage in a western saddle. The “must maintain contact” rule and allowing two hands on the curb are examples of that.(end soapbox) :)[/QUOTE]

In the link it appears the some of the rules have been revised.

Perhaps if concerned people raise enough of an out cry the rules requiring the horse to accept contact in bits & bosals that were not designed for consistent contact can be revised also.

[mvp]

[QUOTE=NoSuchPerson;9029953]
Back when people first started talking about western dressage, I hoped that they would come up with something based on classical dressage principles but also incorporate and embrace key principles of western riding. Unfortunately, it ended up mostly being regular English dressage in a western saddle. The “must maintain contact” rule and allowing two hands on the curb are examples of that.(end soapbox) :)[/QUOTE]

FWIW, I agree with you.

I think the fascination with contact comes from the “equipment accident” of riding horses in snaffles for so long in their training, as is done in Dressage World.

(Furthermore, if a great deal of Dressage Philosophy was built by and for the improvement of an old-fashioned WB type of horse, that too, makes it perspectival. Not all makes and models of horses get to the end result of uphill carriage, strength and suppleness as does this one specialty animal.)

So to require contact as the sign of good training is an unhelpful thing to import to the Western Disciplines. Furthermore, I think it’s unnecessary. Vaqueros were making equally uphill, strong and supple horses for a long time just fine… complete with a different relationship to the bit built in.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=mvp;9030285]
FWIW, I agree with you.

I think the fascination with contact comes from the “equipment accident” of riding horses in snaffles for so long in their training, as is done in Dressage World.

(Furthermore, if a great deal of Dressage Philosophy was built by and for the improvement of an old-fashioned WB type of horse, that too, makes it perspectival. Not all makes and models of horses get to the end result of uphill carriage, strength and suppleness as does this one specialty animal.)

So to require contact as the sign of good training is an unhelpful thing to import to the Western Disciplines. Furthermore, I think it’s unnecessary. Vaqueros were making equally uphill, strong and supple horses for a long time just fine… complete with a different relationship to the bit built in.[/QUOTE]

Maybe today’s vaqueros, but the old timers had stiff, many times inverted horses.
Just look at the drawings in some of the vaquero books from 70 years ago.
There was then plenty of teasing from the TX cowboys going to the West competitions and, “with half broke horses, beating them”, because their horses moved so much more freely and would outwork them, especially on cattle.

The vaquero tradition is good as what it is.
I know, it is heresy to say any other than praise about it, “them are fighting words” if someone dares to do so.
In reality, the horses it produced were light on hand and on the bridle.
They were not exactly what we see today as any kind of supple, once up on the bridle, but the rare one.
In a way, if you put a bit that demands by it’s action the horse be up in the bridle and on the vertical, only way to carry that bit comfortably, you are handicapping some the supple part of how a horse may move and yes, it took years to get a horse to that point.

[jdobbs64]

I think the OPs mare just pushes down and through any bit b/c she wasn’t taught to respect it. Just a guess.

[Draftmare]

I was looking more at an Indian hackamore, or a english hackamore, not so much a bosal. I don’t know if that makes any difference in the advice being given.

Showing in one has already kind of fallen by the wayside my instructor feels that we really need to find a bit. Her experience has mirrored many here in that judges don’t seem to know what to do with hackamore horses. I would still like to explore playing around with a hackamore on my own though. My mare was broke out in a sidepull, and I have ridden her in sidepulls before just fine.

[jdobbs64]

English hack= curb. No clue on an Indian hack.

I don’t think she’s responsive in her face …so yeah she needs to accept a bit.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Draftmare;9030463]
I was looking more at an Indian hackamore, or a english hackamore, not so much a bosal. I don’t know if that makes any difference in the advice being given.

Showing in one has already kind of fallen by the wayside my instructor feels that we really need to find a bit. Her experience has mirrored many here in that judges don’t seem to know what to do with hackamore horses. I would still like to explore playing around with a hackamore on my own though. My mare was broke out in a sidepull, and I have ridden her in sidepulls before just fine.[/QUOTE]

How a horse goes is not so much about what it has on it’s head, but in it’s head.

Training the hands and all other aids of the rider, teaching them to acquire the skills necessary to have effective hands to guide a horse, that is what is important.

Yes, horses do have some headgear that they prefer, some bits that fit better, others that annoy or distract, others that, not handled properly, can even cause them discomfort or even pain.

BUT, in the end, it all hangs on the hands on those reins, that determine what that bit is doing in that horse’s mouth.

Some times, you can teach a horse what you want on the ground, asking with different bits and watching how it responds and then asking again according to how the horse is getting what you are asking.
Then, once the horse knows what you want, do the same once on it’s back.

I just taught someone that was starting colts, that would work with them on the ground on mere pulling to turning them this or that way, but without teaching the horse to move itself from an asking hand, that just got on and then was pulling around and the horse resisting, how to teach first on the ground, so the horse then at least knows what someone on it’s back is asking when it uses those reins and it is not one more of all those signals the horse is getting from that person, seat, legs, balancing that weight up there and hands on reins, all that to pay attention to also.
That person told me several days later it was using the same now on all horses, even older ones and it was an immense help, for them a break-thru.

I wonder if you have tried that, different bits and on the ground watch how your horse responds and help her understand what you are asking, to each light signal to respond lightly, then try the same horseback.
Don’t overdo that, a short couple minutes and just the beginning, to be built on later, then go do other, later maybe ask again some more.

We used a plain old type D snaffle for a bit, could do all and any we wanted with that, but most any other bit would have been fine to train with, just would have worked whatever that bit and horse demanded we use to teach.

[csaper58]

A horse can not ‘lean’ by itself.

It takes two.

The rider must be pulling and the horse leaning/bracing for it to happen. It does not matter if the rider or horse initiates it both must participate for it to continue.

Sadly, this is what many incorrectly believe is contact.

It isn’t about the bit, it is a function of the opposition reflex that is part of the genetic make up of all horses.

Pain from ill fitting tack can also contribute to a stiff, unyielding horse.

An english hackamore or any english equipment is illegal in WD.

[csaper58]

[QUOTE=Draftmare;9025230]
Curious if anybody does this, and what your set up looks like. Pros and cons to going with a bosal or bitless?

Looking for alternatives for a horse that is hard to bit. I have tried every metal that I could think of. Finally went to rubber. It worked for about a year, and then my mare started bracing against it. I switched her to Happy Mouth and things were perfect until a week ago when I found a huge chunk missing out of my bit. I don’t really want to spend another $60 on a bit that only lasted me 3.5 months. She was broke out in a hackamore, so I don’t think transitioning her back would be hard, I just worry about collection and lateral work.[/QUOTE]

OP, are you certain your horse damaged the bit?

Could someone have ‘borrowed’ it and put it back damaged?

Could a rodent or dog have chewed it?

If a horse does manage to chew a chunk off this bit either the bit was defective or the horse’s teeth need attention.

You might consider having the dentist put a mild bit seat on your horse.

[Draftmare]

A horse can not ‘lean’ by itself.

It takes two.

The rider must be pulling and the horse leaning/bracing for it to happen. It does not matter if the rider or horse initiates it both must participate for it to continue.

Sadly, this is what many incorrectly believe is contact.

It isn’t about the bit, it is a function of the opposition reflex that is part of the genetic make up of all horses.

Pain from ill fitting tack can also contribute to a stiff, unyielding horse.

An english hackamore or any english equipment is illegal in WD.

Sure, it takes two, but I can’t just keep giving and giving and giving the reins until I am on the buckle and my horse’s nose is in the sand. So, I guess I am not following your logic.

And again, my mare only braces and leans in the rubber bit. I had a Happy Mouth that she did not lean in but am highly disappointed that it only lasted me 3.5 months. I have thought about buying a new one, but I am not sure that I want to be forking over $60 every 3 months for a new bit. Which is why I started looking at alternatives. Because of my mare being difficult to bit in the past, I started to think of alternatives like removing the bit altogether since some types of hackamores are western dressage legal.

I sent an email to WDAA to ask for some clarification on which types of hackamores are legal and which kinds aren’t.

[Draftmare]

OP, are you certain your horse damaged the bit?

Could someone have ‘borrowed’ it and put it back damaged?

Could a rodent or dog have chewed it?

If a horse does manage to chew a chunk off this bit either the bit was defective or the horse’s teeth need attention.

You might consider having the dentist put a mild bit seat on your horse.

She just had her teeth checked in November (after we had the bit).

[jdobbs64]

http://www.westerndressageassociation.org/documents/WDAA-EquipmentGuide_Rev1-9-15a_54c0f3a7298f9.pdf

[csaper58]

[QUOTE=Draftmare;9031241]
Sure, it takes two, but I can’t just keep giving and giving and giving the reins until I am on the buckle and my horse’s nose is in the sand. So, I guess I am not following your logic.

And again, my mare only braces and leans in the rubber bit. I had a Happy Mouth that she did not lean in but am highly disappointed that it only lasted me 3.5 months. I have thought about buying a new one, but I am not sure that I want to be forking over $60 every 3 months for a new bit. Which is why I started looking at alternatives. Because of my mare being difficult to bit in the past, I started to think of alternatives like removing the bit altogether since some types of hackamores are western dressage legal.

I sent an email to WDAA to ask for some clarification on which types of hackamores are legal and which kinds aren’t.[/QUOTE]

Bold in the above post is mine

1. No where did I suggest doing this. Why do you think this will be the result of letting go and letting her carry herself?

There is a wonderful thread in dressage on helping horses that lean. Many of the tactics there could be helpful to you.

Why do you always insist the answer is to throw money at this problem? It is the same basic issue you have been having with this horse since you joined COTH.

None of the saddles, saddle pads, bridles, bits, or clothes you have bought have fixed it.

And I doubt a new bit will fix it.

Only consistent, correct, training will improve the way your horse carries herself, and only as much as her conformation and fitness allow.

2. Why do you insist the next Happy Mouth bit will meet the same fate as the first?

No one else is joining in indicating they have or had the same issue with this bit.

That strongly points to some issue with the horse’s mouth that needs resolving.

[NoSuchPerson]

[QUOTE=csaper58;9031164]

If a horse does manage to chew a chunk off this bit either the bit was defective or the horse’s teeth need attention.[/QUOTE]

Not true. I’ve had two different mules do damage to Happy Mouth bits. The bits were not defective, nor did the mules’ teeth need attention.

[csaper58]

[QUOTE=NoSuchPerson;9031368]
Not true. I’ve had two different mules do damage to Happy Mouth bits. The bits were not defective, nor did the mules’ teeth need attention.[/QUOTE]

Mules are a hybrid between a horse and a donkey. They have different head proportions than a horse.

In many mules, esp. the older individuals the teeth tend to slant forward.

Also the OP’s bit was damaged in one spot, on one side only. That seems to indicate a sharp tooth.