Western dressage: showing in a bosal or bitless bridle

[QUOTE=csaper58;9031500]
Mules are a hybrid between a horse and a donkey. They have different head proportions than a horse.

In many mules, esp. the older individuals the teeth tend to slant forward.

Also the OP’s bit was damaged in one spot, on one side only. That seems to indicate a sharp tooth.[/QUOTE]

Any equine can push a snaffle bit up between his back teeth and chew on it, unless you’ve got his mouth strapped shut. Any equine can damage a Happy Mouth bit (or any other bit that isn’t hard metal) by doing so if they chew hard/long enough.

[QUOTE=Bluey;9030314]
Maybe today’s vaqueros, but the old timers had stiff, many times inverted horses.
Just look at the drawings in some of the vaquero books from 70 years ago.
There was then plenty of teasing from the TX cowboys going to the West competitions and, “with half broke horses, beating them”, because their horses moved so much more freely and would outwork them, especially on cattle.

The vaquero tradition is good as what it is.
I know, it is heresy to say any other than praise about it, “them are fighting words” if someone dares to do so.
In reality, the horses it produced were light on hand and on the bridle.
They were not exactly what we see today as any kind of supple, once up on the bridle, but the rare one.
In a way, if you put a bit that demands by it’s action the horse be up in the bridle and on the vertical, only way to carry that bit comfortably, you are handicapping some the supple part of how a horse may move and yes, it took years to get a horse to that point.[/QUOTE]

I agree that you can find pictures of a lot of stiff, inverted horses in spade bits from Way Back.

I couldn’t begin to speculate as to percentages of horses that were trained well (and had the body plus photographs to show for it) vs. those that were not.

I will say that I think we benefit now from continued selective breeding (particularly for athletes that can use their whole body as in the WB) and a whole lot more money put into breeding better horses. People have better raw material to work with now.

I can’t/won’t speak to the people marketing stock breed horses who are downhill. I don’t understand why that conformational defect, in and of itself, doesn’t stop every buyer cold the way it does me.

  1. No where did I suggest doing this. Why do you think this will be the result of letting go and letting her carry herself?

There is a wonderful thread in dressage on helping horses that lean. Many of the tactics there could be helpful to you.

Why do you always insist the answer is to throw money at this problem? It is the same basic issue you have been having with this horse since you joined COTH.

None of the saddles, saddle pads, bridles, bits, or clothes you have bought have fixed it.

And I doubt a new bit will fix it.

Only consistent, correct, training will improve the way your horse carries herself, and only as much as her conformation and fitness allow.

Keep in mind that myself, like many people on this forums, only come here when we are having issues. Very few people come here to say “OMG we won a blue ribbon at the show today!” or “We got a new personal best at the show today” or “I had an amazing lesson today, my horse is amazing!” I leave those types of posts to my blog or to Facebook to share with my real life friends, and the friends I have made through blogging. So yes, if you only take what I post on this forums as a reflection of who I am, I am sure I look like a hot mess.

When I switched to western dressage I went through a period of having to learn. If you asked me about english tack, saddle pads, etc I would likely have an answer for you. When it came to western tack I had no clue. I had to learn. My instructor has a background in 4H-style western, but has spent the last 15 or so years of her teaching career exclusively in the english dressage world. This has been a learning process for her too in some aspects, and she was not always the best resource for questions about western tack. So, I came here to people who have more experience in that area.

There was some trial and error at the start of my journey down the western dressage path, but I now have a saddle that I love and a saddle pad I love, but when it came to questions on comparing styles and brands, again I had no clue and was looking for feedback.

Not sure how clothing has anything to do with anything. Again, coming from a 100% English background, I did need some help sorting out what was in fashion and what was considered acceptable for my newly chosen sport.

  1. Why do you insist the next Happy Mouth bit will meet the same fate as the first?

No one else is joining in indicating they have or had the same issue with this bit.

That strongly points to some issue with the horse’s mouth that needs resolving.

No, nobody in this thread in particular has said that they had issues with the Happy Mouth bits. However, if you do a search of Facebook or Google you will find several threads of people complaining that the bit was damaged or broken, some of them on the first ride. They even had to do a recall a while back. Happy Mouth has made several statements in the past that these bits aren’t for heavy chewers or horses that like to play with their bits a lot. My mare was very quiet in this bit, so I was surprised when she managed to damage it. Also, the damage was towards the middle of the bit, nowhere near her teeth.

Not sure why you are insisting that there is something wrong with her mouth. She gets regular vet check ups, just got floated in November, and will be checked again in 10 days when she gets her yearly check up.

Keep in mind that just as a tight jaw can lead to a tight back, so can a tight back, lead to a tight jaw. A connection issue may not be an actual bit/mouth issue, but rather be tension from elsewhere appearing in the jaw/mouth.

You might be focusing on the wrong end.

1 Like

[QUOTE=Draftmare;9030463]
I was looking more at an Indian hackamore, or a english hackamore, not so much a bosal. I don’t know if that makes any difference in the advice being given.

Showing in one has already kind of fallen by the wayside my instructor feels that we really need to find a bit. Her experience has mirrored many here in that judges don’t seem to know what to do with hackamore horses. I would still like to explore playing around with a hackamore on my own though. My mare was broke out in a sidepull, and I have ridden her in sidepulls before just fine.[/QUOTE]

Of all the bitless pieces of equipment you list, I think the sidepull is the simplest, best piece of equipment for you.

And, IMO, you should choose your horse’s equipment with an eye to it’s mechanical action and how that shapes your horse’s experience.

The beauty of a side pull (and I’ll tell you about the ones I like in a minute) is that it is simple, direct and enourages you (primarly) to use lateral flexion. You can produce longitudinal flexion with one, but that comes in a natural progression, after you have taught the horse the very simple idea that “When you feel me pulling on you, you can make that stop by giving into the pressure and flexing toard it. Pulling away or ignoring it win you no relief. There is only one right answer, and it will always be the right answer.”

So that concept in quotes above is all I want a horse to learn from a sidepull or a snaffle. It is imperative that your hand and/or the piece of equipment let go immediately when the horse does. There should be no delay of the reward for the correct behavior. After all, all the horse can do is recognize a pattern, so you must be clear and consistent with him.

And Indian hackamore, IMO, doesn’t “let go” fast enough. It can’t let go as fast as your hand putting a loop in the rein can. To me, then that means the piece of equipment dulls your aid.

I use a grooming halter tightened down around my horse’s nose (with a bit of sheepskin over the bridge of his nose) when I want a side pull. And like you, OP, I use this homemade contraption when I have a horse for whom the bit is somehow Just Too Much. (That is a separate problem that can be fixed… or improved most of the time. But it’s hard to teach the overly-sensitive horse the “You give when I take” concept AND how to tolerate the bit at the same time. I like to break down any potentially complicated experience into smaller, simpler component parts if I can possibly think of them.

So the beauty of a tight side pull is that my arm (or, later, hand or fingers) has a direct connection to the side of the horse’s head. There is no play in there created by a loose-fitting piece of equipment, rather all of the pressure or release of pressure is under my control.

In choosing a mechanical hackamore, I think you’d be getting a piece of equipment that has the desirable quality of a “quick let-go of pressure.” But I don’t think these are particularly good for teaching lateral flexion.

IMO, you want to get pure and correct lateral flexion first, often and for a very long time in a horse’s training before you drill him hard on flexing longitudinally. If you ask him to just “tuck his chin” too soon in his training, you’ll dig a hole for yourself because he will find a way to tuck his chin to escape pressure from your hand… but he might not lift up his back while he’s doing that.

Yeah. Don’t create that kind of horse…he’s hard, hard, hard to fix. And it takes a ton of feel, timing and skill to re-condition his body and his mind. Oh, and I’ll bet those stiff, inverted bridle horses of yore that Bluey spoke of had this done to them.

[QUOTE=NoSuchPerson;9031368]
Not true. I’ve had two different mules do damage to Happy Mouth bits. The bits were not defective, nor did the mules’ teeth need attention.[/QUOTE]

Add a fussy, sissy-mouthed, momma’s boy (and behind the leg, it turns out) homebred KWPN gelding to that list.

Bless his heart, this gelding didn’t think one should/could possibly go forward with contact. And if you asked him to, he’d chew and fuss on a bit in protest of All That Was Unfair In The World. And momma bought her precious fragile flower a Happy Mouth so as to try and appease him.

And my beloved fancy boy had First World dental care. The horse never missed so much as a pellet of feed.

What worked was finally getting this lazy, kind horse cotton pickin’ ahead of my leg. But I have the toothmarks on a Happy Mouth or two to prove that horses who are physically OK but who express their psychological distress orally can wreck 'em.

[QUOTE=CHT;9031516]
Keep in mind that just as a tight jaw can lead to a tight back, so can a tight back, lead to a tight jaw. A connection issue may not be an actual bit/mouth issue, but rather be tension from elsewhere appearing in the jaw/mouth.

You might be focusing on the wrong end.[/QUOTE]

100% agree.

[QUOTE=mvp;9031513]
I agree that you can find pictures of a lot of stiff, inverted horses in spade bits from Way Back.

I couldn’t begin to speculate as to percentages of horses that were trained well (and had the body plus photographs to show for it) vs. those that were not.

I will say that I think we benefit now from continued selective breeding (particularly for athletes that can use their whole body as in the WB) and a whole lot more money put into breeding better horses. People have better raw material to work with now.

I can’t/won’t speak to the people marketing stock breed horses who are downhill. I don’t understand why that conformational defect, in and of itself, doesn’t stop every buyer cold the way it does me.[/QUOTE]

Hackamore Reinsman by Ed Connel is a classic of the California Vaquero tradition.
Drawing on the front of the book and picture of Ed Connel.
Those illustrate what I was talking about, why I would not consider that kind of riding as “supple”.
Granted, drawings and pictures can be a questionable snapshot in time, not what the previous or subsequent frame was showing,
Still, I think there were enough of those to think maybe that kind of riding didn’t really consider collection and self carriage as we do today.
We are altogether much better at that today, I think.
Right click on the picture and click on “open in a new window” for a bigger, easier to see picture.
I don’t think that is what the OP needs to be emulating for WD:

$_35.jpg

ed-connell8.jpg

Bluey, why are you ignoring all the beautiful examples of modern bridle horses produced by current day Vaquero horseman and instead, relying on examples from the last century?

It’s like posting pictures of jumper riders in the early 1900s using the backward seat over fences as an example of how show jumpers ride.

[QUOTE=NoSuchPerson;9031902]
Bluey, why are you ignoring all the beautiful examples of modern bridle horses produced by current day Vaquero horseman and instead, relying on examples from the last century?

It’s like posting pictures of jumper riders in the early 1900s using the backward seat over fences as an example of how show jumpers ride.[/QUOTE]

Uhu?

I am not, just pointing that they were not what we consider today “supple”, which they were not.

People need to educate their eye to what is correct and think why, not just assume because it is any one kind of riding is wonderful and great, which is all I ever hear from some about old ways, that were not quite what some today think they were.

[QUOTE=csaper58;9028484]
Buying another Happy Mouth bit (or two) may be easier, and cheaper than buying a bosal, and headstall that will fit your mare.

The horse wears OS/Draft size bridle IIRC.[/QUOTE]

Yes for sure on the pricing. With your mare’s draft head you are not likely to find a bosal “off the rack” that will fit…most of them - even the high quality hand-made artisan variety - come in a standard 10" size. My custom bosal for mac’s big head was $400 plus. Horse hair mecate was over $100. A happy mouth is much cheaper.

Wanted to add that my bosal wasn’t that expensive because of the size but because of the quality of workmanship…those made by a true artist are not cheap but will last a lifetime.

If your trainer isn’t educated in the vaquero/Californio tradition of making a bridle horse, forget going the bosal hackamore route. There is too much to learn just about the equipment’s whys and wherefores before you even put one on your horse’s head.

I would recommend going to watch a Buck Brannaman clinic if you can. Or watch his 7 clinics DVDs. Learn and understand about feel, timing, getting I to the horse’s mind and body. If you can go to a Harry Whitney clinic that would be even better, as he teaches one-on-one versus a large group and he’s all about getting to the horse’s mind before anything else. What you learn will be invaluable to your understanding of your horse, her understanding of you, your riding, and her softness.

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OP? Question for you…or two related ones, actually, dealing with the pulling. And please think about them even if you think both are totally, ridiculously out of the question as far as what the real reason for the pulling and not accepting contact is.

  1. Is this horse built uphill, downhill or level with a tendency to travel downhill?

  2. Have you ever had its hocks x rayed?

IME, horses that pull either don’t have the hip and shoulder angles to allow the weight to be shifted to the hind end or something hurts and they protect themselves by unweighting the rear. Hocks being the leading suspect.

If you keep having the same problem, maybe you are looking in the wrong place for the solution. Some horses just can’t do it it can but it hurts…and they don’t limp if both hocks hurt.

You know…you could buy a few more Happy Mouth bits for what a properly balanced, made and fitted bosal costs. The cheaper ones are crap and, like cheap bits that are unbalanced, pitted and lopsided, can cause problems.

[QUOTE=Bluey;9031945]
Uhu?

I am not, just pointing that they were not what we consider today “supple”, which they were not.

People need to educate their eye to what is correct and think why, not just assume because it is any one kind of riding is wonderful and great, which is all I ever hear from some about old ways, that were not quite what some today think they were.[/QUOTE]

Ok. But really, I’m not as stupid as I look. Nor are most COTHers. I can see a horse who is low in the back and stiff, regardless of the tack he’s in or the prestige of his disciplinary roots.

I still think the point made about your picking very old pictures as a basis for warning us about the modern disciplines is unplaced, as others have said. And the comparison to pointing out early 20th century equitation as “how show jumping, in all times and all places is done” was apt.

I don’t really think that there is anything wrong with my horse. She gets regular vet checks, and sees the chiropractor and MT more in the three years that I have had her than I have in my entire life. :sadsmile: She had hock xrays in August of 2014 and they found nothing when we were thinking her PSSM symptoms were lameness. She had xrays just done of her cannon bones and fetlock area just done in November 2016, again nothing found. She is just a quirky and picky horse when it comes to what is on her head. Even getting a fly mask on her can be a struggle some days. Back when I had her on pasture she was a regular Houdini out of her muzzle. She doesn’t even like having her face brushed unless it is directly between her eyes, though she loves having her ears scratched like a dog. She is just odd.

She is an inch shorter in front than she is behind, but she can and will lift her withers and drive from behind, though she would really prefer if I let her allow her hocks to trail out behind her.

I wasn’t really thinking about going with a traditional bosal, because yes, all my headstalls have had to be semi custom thus far!!

I think I will go the sidepull route, there are quite a few people who make them out of paracord and can do custom sizes.

[QUOTE=Draftmare;9033328]
I don’t really think that there is anything wrong with my horse. She gets regular vet checks, and sees the chiropractor and MT more in the three years that I have had her than I have in my entire life. :sadsmile: She had hock xrays in August of 2014 and they found nothing when we were thinking her PSSM symptoms were lameness. She had xrays just done of her cannon bones and fetlock area just done in November 2016, again nothing found. She is just a quirky and picky horse when it comes to what is on her head. Even getting a fly mask on her can be a struggle some days. Back when I had her on pasture she was a regular Houdini out of her muzzle. She doesn’t even like having her face brushed unless it is directly between her eyes, though she loves having her ears scratched like a dog. She is just odd.

She is an inch shorter in front than she is behind, but she can and will lift her withers and drive from behind, though she would really prefer if I let her allow her hocks to trail out behind her.

I wasn’t really thinking about going with a traditional bosal, because yes, all my headstalls have had to be semi custom thus far!!

I think I will go the sidepull route, there are quite a few people who make them out of paracord and can do custom sizes.[/QUOTE]

Just keep trying and learning and watching and something will eventually work.

Let the horse tell you when it is comfortable, best way to go about it.

the thing about a sidepull is this: it must, yes MUST be snuggly fit to the face and stable, so fairly snug in the cheeks and fitted- so there it is, riding low on her face, with a browband, and snug, and likely she’ll need a stiff rope-nose to keep her ‘respectful’- even a single narrow paracord is too soft and forgiving. I have a soft paracord sidepull from Sunset Halters and it’s junk. Fine for trail riding, useless for refined riding.

this is truly, correctly fitted sidepull:
http://www.infohorse.com/buckaroosidetop.jpg

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRspFKG-iV5fSvljogsy9VJGWpVbr0rK3jeSXiOXm2Oj6QsSUNo

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/eb/9a/39/eb9a398f18149427649ab266e40d1c23.jpg

you can find countless examples of the ‘newer’ sidepulls and they are much farther up the face, and look so gentle, and so kind, and the horse is so happy, because they can brace and lock the base of the neck and twiest their head and say Bye Felicia and drag through that mess like a hot knife through butter. Don’t waste your money. there is a REASON to buy a decent leather sidepull with a rope noseband.

This mare needs to learn to pack a bit and deal with her lot in life. I would pay $10 for a 2 minute video of walk and trot U/S. I think I know what it will look like. heavy, on the forehand, quiet in the mouth, and totally in charge. :wink:

OP, you know I love your mare and I know you love your mare, but some of your comments, especially post 55, make me think you are just a little indulgent with her. When you give her an inch, being a mare, she is going to look to take a mile, which is coming out under saddle. I think I would work on her fussiness with her head on the ground. You are not doing anything that is hurting her, no reason why she can’t learn to drop her had down for you to do whatever and patiently wait for you to finish.

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[QUOTE=jdobbs64;9033448]
the thing about a sidepull is this: it must, yes MUST be snuggly fit to the face and stable, so fairly snug in the cheeks and fitted- so there it is, riding low on her face, with a browband, and snug, and likely she’ll need a stiff rope-nose to keep her ‘respectful’- even a single narrow paracord is too soft and forgiving. I have a soft paracord sidepull from Sunset Halters and it’s junk. Fine for trail riding, useless for refined riding.

this is truly, correctly fitted sidepull:
http://www.infohorse.com/buckaroosidetop.jpg

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRspFKG-iV5fSvljogsy9VJGWpVbr0rK3jeSXiOXm2Oj6QsSUNo

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/eb/9a/39/eb9a398f18149427649ab266e40d1c23.jpg

you can find countless examples of the ‘newer’ sidepulls and they are much farther up the face, and look so gentle, and so kind, and the horse is so happy, because they can brace and lock the base of the neck and twiest their head and say Bye Felicia and drag through that mess like a hot knife through butter. Don’t waste your money. there is a REASON to buy a decent leather sidepull with a rope noseband.

This mare needs to learn to pack a bit and deal with her lot in life. I would pay $10 for a 2 minute video of walk and trot U/S. I think I know what it will look like. heavy, on the forehand, quiet in the mouth, and totally in charge. ;)[/QUOTE]

That was helpful, thanks. My home made side pull fits like that… low and tight. I didn’t realize those were “official” requirements. They were just what worked for me.

And “working” was defined as “When I pull on one rein, you immediately give and then I immediately let go.” You have to/can pull harder on a side pull than on a rein. At least that’s true until the horse learns the logic of your hand-- what makes you take and what he can do in order to make you let go.

I agree, too, that anything that has any stretch to it-- including knotted paracord-- isn’t what you want. But I think that the bit across the nose will be stretched out during your first couple of rides, you’ll tighten the noseband down and then it will stop allowing that “play” caused by stretch or a loose noseband to interfere with your training.

I think the stiffened rope used in traditional side pulls is included in order to give more bite to it than would the leather in my home made grooming halter. Perhaps a heavy, built downhill horse could use that little bit extra bite at first?

Can’t quote on my computer, but in response to this…

Perhaps a heavy, built downhill horse could use that little bit extra bite at first?


I think that without proper rider education, it is not fair to the horse employ something that bites . . . without the rider knowing when and how to release for a proper response, then you’re just teaching the horse another thing to be dull to and/or causing more pain than necessary.

I remember a video the OP posted a while back from a WD show she did. I thought the horse looked fine and appropriate for her level. I don’t remember seeing fussiness with the head or bit. What bit was that, OP, and why aren’t you using that anymore? What isn’t working about it?

I’ve worked with an amazing “cowboy” here who has taught me a lot of basics that I never learned in my english riding career of 30+ years. I wish I could box him up and send him to you, OP. He gives very clear instructions. He would teach both you and your mare to be light. Once you had a taste of that, you would want more.

The trouble I find with competition in any subjective discipline is that you are riding to an “ideal” that has been set forth by a group of people and you are being judged on how closely you and your horse match that ideal. Sometimes it is an easy match . . . good breeding or right horse for the job or perfect horse/rider match or talented rider to bring the best out of the horse, or whatever. With a new sport like WD, there’s bound to be lots of growing pains. I think that WD is young enough of a sport that it has a lot of self-definition still to do. Your example of contact with a bosal is a perfect example (or maybe someone else said it). A bosal is not meant to be ridden with constant contact (nevermind “dressage” contact). A curb bit is not meant to be ridden with two hands. It sounds like they (whoever they are) are taking dressage principles and slapping western tack on the horse and calling it WD, without taking into consideration the development of the western horse and how western bridles are supposed to be used.

It sounds like some of the problems you are having are in trying to ride to the ideal of your chosen sport instead of stepping back and focusing on the training of your horse. You are focusing on the equipment (specific bit that is legal to use in a show), not on the training (how to improve the horse so that she is responsive and light and doesn’t lean or drag you or whatever it is that is the root of the issue).