I think a sidepull with enough bite to signal is preferable to one so dull the horse just ignores it. I’m not condoning a Noavel, after all :). if we didn’t need more than nothing but less than a piece of twisted wire, we’d all be riding them in yarn and butterfly wings.
[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;9034214]
[COLOR=#333333]Perhaps a heavy, built downhill horse could use that little bit extra bite at first?
I think that without proper rider education, it is not fair to the horse employ something that bites . . . without the rider knowing when and how to release for a proper response, then you’re just teaching the horse another thing to be dull to and/or causing more pain than necessary.[/QUOTE]
I was the one who wrote the suggestion about more bite.
Look, I assume “good enough” riding. Or if you don’t, what exactly is your suggestion? It seems to me that the only alternative can be that the OP, due to presumed lack of riding skills continue to allow her horse to go as her build suggests she would-- a tad downhill.
FWIW, the OP did say that the mare is capable of raising the front of her rib cage.
I guess one could always CYA and take a “First, do no harm” to the horse position. If that’s the goal, then OK and my advice for changing the horse should be disregarded.
I agree with the rest of your post about the value of a well-educated western horseman who can teach well and the growing pains built into WD while in it’s early days.
All anyone can do-- including the OP-- is apply what makes sense to her and leave the rest for another day. I think trying something different, if you understand the reasoning behind it and know what behavior from the horse you’ll praise is a pretty safe way to go. YMMV.
[QUOTE=mvp;9034256]
I was the one who wrote the suggestion about more bite.
Look, I assume “good enough” riding. Or if you don’t, what exactly is your suggestion? It seems to me that the only alternative can be that the OP, due to presumed lack of riding skills continue to allow her horse to go as her build suggests she would-- a tad downhill.
FWIW, the OP did say that the mare is capable of raising the front of her rib cage.
I guess one could always CYA and take a “First, do no harm” to the horse position. If that’s the goal, then OK and my advice for changing the horse should be disregarded.
I agree with the rest of your post about the value of a well-educated western horseman who can teach well and the growing pains built into WD while in it’s early days.
All anyone can do-- including the OP-- is apply what makes sense to her and leave the rest for another day. I think trying something different, if you understand the reasoning behind it and know what behavior from the horse you’ll praise is a pretty safe way to go. YMMV.[/QUOTE]
-
Why would anyone with skill and compassion ask their horse to spend 90% of it’s time under saddle fighting the way that horse’s body is put together, and the way that body naturally functions?
-
Any horse can lift and sit for a moment or a few strides. The OP has stated this horse has PSSM. Posted photos of this horse show it is built down hill. This horse had most of the summer off due to a leg injury. This horse seems to be trying to please it’s rider, but the horse may lack the ability and/or the conditioning needed.
If you can run a mile, don’t assume you can run a marathon.
And if that horse finds a way to please it’s rider (see the OP’s brag thread after her show) Why would she then sabotage all that progress (and create 4 new threads to justify doing that) because 1 inexpensive easy to replace bit, that she repeatedly states the horse likes, broke?
I quote the OP in post #1 of this thread, “I switched her to the Happy Mouth and things were perfect”
Why not just get another HM bit and get back to riding/conditioning this horse?
Instead the Op would rather go on a snipe hunt for the perfect bit/bosal/hackamore, in a color that matches her other tack, and fits this mare’s oversize head, at a reasonable ($60 ish?) price.
What is this horse, that desperately needs to retain it’s conditioning, doing in the meantime?
[QUOTE=csaper58;9034435]
-
Why would anyone with skill and compassion ask their horse to spend 90% of it’s time under saddle fighting the way that horse’s body is put together, and the way that body naturally functions?
-
Any horse can lift and sit for a moment or a few strides. The OP has stated this horse has PSSM. Posted photos of this horse show it is built down hill. This horse had most of the summer off due to a leg injury. This horse seems to be trying to please it’s rider, but the horse may lack the ability and/or the conditioning needed.
If you can run a mile, don’t assume you can run a marathon.
And if that horse finds a way to please it’s rider (see the OP’s brag thread after her show) Why would she then sabotage all that progress (and create 4 new threads to justify doing that) because 1 inexpensive easy to replace bit, that she repeatedly states the horse likes, broke?
I quote the OP in post #1 of this thread, “I switched her to the Happy Mouth and things were perfect”
Why not just get another HM bit and get back to riding/conditioning this horse?
Instead the Op would rather go on a snipe hunt for the perfect bit/bosal/hackamore, in a color that matches her other tack, and fits this mare’s oversize head, at a reasonable ($60 ish?) price.
What is this horse, that desperately needs to retain it’s conditioning, doing in the meantime?[/QUOTE]
I wonder if the OP is still in the “don’t know what I don’t know” when it comes to this task in front of her and her horse and that is why the questions are all over the place, trying to make some sense of what doesn’t quite yet make sense.
I think that is perfectly fine, the OP and all reading can learn something from the discussions, which is one point of these forums.
1 Like
[QUOTE=Bluey;9034502]
I wonder if the OP is still in the “don’t know what I don’t know” when it comes to this task in front of her and her horse and that is why the questions are all over the place, trying to make some sense of what doesn’t quite yet make sense.
I think that is perfectly fine, the OP and all reading can learn something from the discussions, which is one point of these forums.[/QUOTE]
When something doesn’t go her way is ‘learning’ the OP’s primary agenda?
Or, does she throw the little bit of hard won progress into the wind and start a retail therapy thread.
The resulting pursuit of a ‘special’ purchase (happily enabled by CoTH) usually lasts long enough that it puts the poor horse back at square one with respect to it’s tricky physical conditioning.
And now there are several posts with folks are urging the OP to be tougher on the horse.
:rolleyes:
1 Like
Jesus, you guys. Knock off the horsemanship bashing of the OP.
FWIW, if the OP’s horse’s withers are just that one inch lower at the withers than the croup (and is otherwise built fine), this isn’t the worse equine architecture any of us has seen.
So whether for reasons of that description or the spirit of reserving judgment because, really, none of us has seen the pair go, I’ll take the OP at face value.
Also, of all the ways to hurt or mess-up-the-head of a horse, I don’t think the OP is doing anything that’s “beyond normal limits” egregious.
All of us start out knowing less than we know now. Furthermore, if you are doing it right, you’ll look back on what your Best Guess today and roll your eyes a little bit. A key part of this recipe for constant improvement as a horseman is the willingness to ask for help and try new stuff.
Don’t discourage that. And don’t let anyone else tell you not to pose a new approach to a horse… and see what he says back to you.
1 Like
Lol the op may not need a new bridle but someone needs a new pill :winkgrin:
[QUOTE=mvp;9034733]
Jesus, you guys. Knock off the horsemanship bashing of the OP.
FWIW, if the OP’s horse’s withers are just that one inch lower at the withers than the croup (and is otherwise built fine), this isn’t the worse equine architecture any of us has seen.
So whether for reasons of that description or the spirit of reserving judgment because, really, none of us has seen the pair go, I’ll take the OP at face value.
Also, of all the ways to hurt or mess-up-the-head of a horse, I don’t think the OP is doing anything that’s “beyond normal limits” egregious.
All of us start out knowing less than we know now. Furthermore, if you are doing it right, you’ll look back on what your Best Guess today and roll your eyes a little bit. A key part of this recipe for constant improvement as a horseman is the willingness to ask for help and try new stuff.
Don’t discourage that. And don’t let anyone else tell you not to pose a new approach to a horse… and see what he says back to you.[/QUOTE]
Mostly I agree with what you say. I don’t know that it applies to the OP.
I am curious why you keep overlooking the PSSM diagnosis the OP said the horse has, and how that is relevant to the horse’s inability to make progress with self carriage.
And that riding in ‘fits and starts’, (between shopping sprees) is the exact opposite of what the horse needs and is greatly contributing to all the resistance issues the OP is having.
I guessed I missed the parts of this thread where the OP talked about the horse’s health issues and showed us pictures of the mare’s conformation.
If that info was gathered from elsewhere, and by someone who investigated all of the OP’s threads then you got me: I’m taking the OP’s request for help and her estimation of what counts as “relevant information” at face value. After all, it’s my job as a horseman to tell you all I can think of in order to help you help me. But I don’t know what I don’t know. And while I’d welcome “out of the box” suggestions, those aren’t always helpful.
[QUOTE=mvp;9034845]
I guessed I missed the parts of this thread where the OP talked about the horse’s health issues and showed us pictures of the mare’s conformation.
If that info was gathered from elsewhere, and by someone who investigated all of the OP’s threads then you got me: I’m taking the OP’s request for help and her estimation of what counts as “relevant information” at face value. After all, it’s my job as a horseman to tell you all I can think of in order to help you help me. But I don’t know what I don’t know. And while I’d welcome “out of the box” suggestions, those aren’t always helpful.[/QUOTE]
All my info was gathered from the OP in this thread.
I am all for encouraging someone.
I think they should be encouraged in a meaningful way.
Because when you blindly support someone, you must consider all they are doing, and what that is doing to the living, feeling, horse.
When the going gets rough the OP finds a problem to use as an excuse to quit. (the broken bit) Then comes here to get support for throwing time and money at that problem (see her 4 threads on this issue).
PSSM horses must have a consistent level/intensity of exercise.
1 Like
Are shoe pads not allowed in WD? Using a pad under front shoes could get withers up to normal, level, to erase the heavy front end, downhill problem. Horse having to lift her front end will be incredibly easier, perhaps allowing horse to work EASIER, if she can start with a level body.
Poor conformation for certain disciplines, means horse has a much harder time doing them as easily, smoothly, as a horse better built for the job. Can’t remember if I ever saw any photos of this horse, but does she have a thick throatlatch? Such horses have a hard time going with a vertical face. Pinches their wind pipe. This could add to problems horse has trying to collect, lift and drive off the rear end, while carrying rider. Rider may be sabatoging horse efforts as I mentioned in my first post, by doing small subtle things they don’t notice but still affecting the horse.
I agree, the first couple posts by OP do sound like she wants to buy a cure, not figure it out. I see lots of folks who do this, a more expensive bit, brand name saddle, using the bit Trainer likes. Blame everything but your own skills or lack of them. Yep, harsh, but not having plenty of money to buy horse fixes, we have always had to go with finding the true problem with horse, fix the cause, to get the expected performance needed to win. It is never easy.
I am not thinking OP will fix the issue with sidepull bridle, use of a true Hackamore with bosal or any other magic she can purchase.
[B]Sorry, can’t quote from my computer . . .
MVP wrote: [/B]Look, I assume “good enough” riding. Or if you don’t, what exactly is your suggestion?
Sure, “good enough” riding. I think that the OP has that. My suggestion is to improve her skills and learn to be a better rider and to seek instruction from people who are really good horsemen (or women) and really know how to get the best from a horse. That is not an insult - we can all benefit to improve our skills and become better. I say this with the perspective of my own experience. I had ridden for 30 years (mostly h/j, but dressage and eventing as well) and had always been in training (and showing when it fit with my schedule and finances). So presumably, I was a “good enough” rider. But as I aspire to be a better rider and better horsewoman, when I was faced with a difficult problem I realized that the track I had been on with “traditional” english trainers wasn’t helping me. Through my work with a few horsemen of the cowboy variety, I improved my understanding of the aids, of timing and release, and of breaking things down to really small and understandable progressions for the horse to understand and learn from. It has been a huge and amazing help to me.
So my suggestions aren’t coming from a place of spouting nonsense for the sake of it. I would imagine that the OP came here looking for advice because she wants to learn. I offer her suggestions that helped me a lot when dealing with a horse with less-than-ideal conformation and a “tough” mind as well. If she doesn’t like the suggestion, she is free to ignore it.
. . . .
[B]I guess one could always CYA and take a “First, do no harm” to the horse position. If that’s the goal, then OK and my advice for changing the horse should be disregarded.
[/B]If my motto was “first, do no harm,” then I wouldn’t be riding. Not that I’m advocating harming any horse, of course. But I don’t think that riding is inherently good for horses and seeing how there’s likely more bad riding and instruction out there than good, it seems impossible to do no harm at all. What I’d like to do is do as little harm as possible and ride my horses such that it brings out the best in them mentally and physically, that benefits their soundness and longevity, and that promotes a partnership between us. That’s my goal, anyway.
Look, we all make mistakes and struggle along the way and hopefully we learn from them. I applaud anyone who is genuinely looking for help.
I absolutely have struggled with similar issues, myself. I’ve gone the bitless bridle route when I didn’t feel I had options for something better. I did the best I could with the information I had at that time. People would make similar suggestions to better educate the horse to the bit, but no one ever suggested how or perhaps types of trainers to seek. Sometimes people just say “do better” - but what does that mean? If you’re already doing what you think is the best you can with the knowledge you have, you try something else instead. Once I found the type of trainer who could really help me, it opened my eyes and taught me a lot. So instead of saying “do better,” my intention is to offer suggestions of the types of trainers to look for who could be of help.
I think OP and her mare make a lovely pair and I want to see them be happy and successful together, that’s all.
And I’d add smiley faces here if the emoticons were working for me.
[QUOTE=csaper58;9034945]
All my info was gathered from the OP in this thread.
I am all for encouraging someone.
I think they should be encouraged in a meaningful way.
Because when you blindly support someone, you must consider all they are doing, and what that is doing to the living, feeling, horse.
When the going gets rough the OP finds a problem to use as an excuse to quit. (the broken bit) Then comes here to get support for throwing time and money at that problem (see her 4 threads on this issue).
PSSM horses must have a consistent level/intensity of exercise.[/QUOTE]
Well, look. I haven’t read all four threads.
I “blindly” support the OP in the sense that I haven’t watched the pair go. I don’t think I’m uncritical of her, do you?
But peace out, man. The advice was free. Take what you like and leave the rest.
csaper58, what is going on that has you so unhappy? Are you safe? Are you okay?
[QUOTE=Draftmare;9037438]
csaper58, what is going on that has you so unhappy? Are you safe? Are you okay?[/QUOTE]
I am fine.
What a bazaar change of topic.
Is the discussion of your penchant for shopping when life gets difficult such a touchy subject you can’t contemplate it?
The compulsion to spend money regardless of need or financial means is very treatable mental illness.
Okay there is your answer, a Merhow Trailer shopping thread.:rolleyes:
[QUOTE=csaper58;9037799]
I am fine.
What a bazaar change of topic.
Is the discussion of your penchant for shopping when life gets difficult such a touchy subject you can’t contemplate it?
The compulsion to spend money regardless of need or financial means is very treatable mental illness.
Okay there is your answer, a Merhow Trailer shopping thread.:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
Ouch.
Also, it’s “bizarre.”
And last, you need to stop stalking the OP and making ad hominem attacks.
It’s fair-- as well as a good feature of COTH- that we all get to come and ask for help or experience here. No one ought to be treated badly for doing that. For all any of us knows, the OP’s horse- and trailer threads are unrelated.
[QUOTE=mvp;9037827]
Ouch.
Also, it’s “bizarre.”
And last, you need to stop stalking the OP and making ad hominem attacks.
It’s fair-- as well as a good feature of COTH- that we all get to come and ask for help or experience here. No one ought to be treated badly for doing that. For all any of us knows, the OP’s horse- and trailer threads are unrelated.[/QUOTE]
Oops spelling error noted, thanks.
How can answering a question directed to me by the OP be defined as ‘stalking’ her?
You know how to spell, perhaps you need to study the definitions?
[QUOTE=csaper58;9037865]
Oops spelling error noted, thanks.
How can answering a question directed to me by the OP be defined as ‘stalking’ her?
You know how to spell, perhaps you need to study the definitions?[/QUOTE]
I think you ought to do the OP the courtesy of answering her questions on each thread. She didn’t ask for you to diagnose some underlying mental illness, nor can you possibly do that here. So trolling around to discover that the OP has recently started a trailer shopping thread and using that to insult the OP is what made me consider your behavior “stalking.”
Does that make my inference a bit more clear? And wasn’t that obvious in the first place?
But I’m not going to turn this into a fight between us, complete with your inference that I don’t know the meanings of the words I use.
So I’ll withdraw again and for the last time on this thread. If this is how the game is played, I leave you the mistress of the field. Peace out!
COTH’s forums are social forums focused on horses. They are not a trainer, a riding lesson, a therapist, a coach, a vet, a farrier, a braider, a nutritionist…or a bazaar. 
Good luck to you, Draftmare. Check your PMs I sent you one over the weekend.
[QUOTE=mvp;9037908]
I think you ought to do the OP the courtesy of answering her questions on each thread. She didn’t ask for you to diagnose some underlying mental illness, nor can you possibly do that here. So trolling around to discover that the OP has recently started a trailer shopping thread and using that to insult the OP is what made me consider your behavior “stalking.”
Does that make my inference a bit more clear? And wasn’t that obvious in the first place?
But I’m not going to turn this into a fight between us, complete with your inference that I don’t know the meanings of the words I use.
So I’ll withdraw again and for the last time on this thread. If this is how the game is played, I leave you the mistress of the field. Peace out![/QUOTE]
I answer the content of the OP’s question (post 74) and the underlying inference.
As a thread progresses the discussions evolve in ways no one can control.
I believe considering all information posted by a member as relevant is appropriate.
History is the context for the future.
“peace out!” to you too.
