Western pleasure horses and natural self-carriage

[CenteredRiding]

Just read an article stating that western pleasure horses have natural collection (self carriage) in the field, and that training has spoilt their natural carriage. Here is the link:

Western Pleasure: It’s Time To Move Forward And Straighten Things Out

Am currently leasing a QH while learning about classical dressage. All my studies have indicated that horses left untrained do not have self carriage. They have a natural way of movement which can be beautiful to watch, but it’s not collected, i.e., hind legs doing equal share of load-bearing. (Exception being the stallion who arches his neck and lifts his back in “presentation” mode).

I’ve observed this in my QH: running in the field his head is high, face horizontal, tail up, back hollow. Is he an exception to those the article speaks of? Or are “western pleasure horses” (which must at least include quarterhorses) an exceptional breed from those studied in Europe and which studies culminate in modern dressage training?

(Maybe should post this in “Off Course” category? - it’s kind of cross-disciplined with dressage).

Curious what others think of the training vs. natural self-carriage question. Article’s got me confused.

[DMK]

collection =/= self carriage

collection (and extension) are more advanced levels of a gait that cannot be properly achieved until a horse can “carry himself” without assistance from a rider (self carriage).

Self carriage (to me) is a horse executing a certain pace within a gait, not on the forehand, not carrying his head inverted or overly flexed, but in a way that allows him to stay in front of your leg and appropriate for his conformation, he will not need to adjust the rhythm in order to stay there (i.e., speed up/slow down), and can continue this in a straight line or a moderate bend with the only minimal assistance from the rider to reaffirm direction.

(note - depending on your discipline all of this may be achieved on anything from steady contact to no contact at all, but it is all the same principle)

Once a horse can do that consistently in all three gaits and then add a faster/slower version to the list, it is pretty easy to ask him to build on those blocks to achieve collection or extension.

So yes, all horses can have self carriage, how difficult it is is a combination of conformation and correct training. And generally disciplines that focus on quick results/extreme versions of natural gaits are more prone to screw that up in the desire to get it done quickly.

[Sunsets]

@DMK;8775651

collection =/= self carriage

collection (and extension) are more advanced levels of a gait that cannot be properly achieved until a horse can “carry himself” without assistance from a rider (self carriage).

Agreed. Another way to think of “self carriage” is “frame”. Not in the bad sense (as in holding the horse in “a frame”) but like dancers use the phrase. Ever go out to a social dance or wedding reception and see a dancer who REALLY knows what they’re about? How they hold themselves together and how they can make just about any partner look decent? That’s advanced self carriage.

Along the same lines - the rider must develop their own self carriage - we can’t expect our horses to hold together if we are flopping around up there :winkgrin:

[Rackonteur]

The purpose of dressage is to train the rider to train the horse well enough that he can move as freely under a rider as he can at liberty in the pasture.

Of course no horse does. Just watch one galloping at liberty and then under saddle.

But in theory it’s a good idea.

[CenteredRiding]

Yes, thank-you. I think you are all more or less confirming what has been my understanding. Writer of article, however, seems to be stating that western pleasure horses have self carriage before they are trained or sat upon, and that the trainers/riders are spoiling their natural carriage.

Ah well, I guess everyone’s right. Sometimes the never ridden, natural horse may appear to carry himself nicely. My recent observations have been that they seem more strung out than rounded when running or trotting in a field.

[findthedistance]

Not all QHs are western pleasure horses. That’s a good starting point. And how a horse moves when it’s fresh and blasting around the field isn’t necessarily a fair demonstration of the horse’s natural movement. They all have the potential to get wild enough to run around like llamas. :lol:

Good, pleasure-bred QHs do travel low, slow, and balanced at liberty. As in any discipline, those athletes that naturally move in a manner close to the sport’s ideal are desirable and often easier to train. Is it “collection”? Not really. Is it “self-carriage”? I’d say yes. Then you add the weight of a rider to the mix and spend time chasing the level of self-carriage the horse had while loose.

[MtnDrmz]

I wouldn’t be surprised if perhaps that article was pointing towards allowing WP horses to move more forward and freely in the western pleasure classes, similar to how the good ones would at liberty, rather then trainers creating the ultra low, ultra slow style that many have today.

[Sunlight_Star]

There is NOTHING natural about AQHA western pleasure horses. Watched an AQHA show in New Smyrna Beach FL a week and a half ago and my 8yo grandchildren even asked what gaits exactly the Western Pleasure horses were doing. They also asked about the fake tails on the western horses. It would have been a joke except it was a wonderful opportunity to show children what NOT to do…in particular #56 and #79 (I think) but it doesn’t matter because the only 2 decent horses/ riders were consistently placed last by the 4 judges.

So much for AQHA’s concern for the horses…not only could everyone, including the judges, see what the riders were doing to “warm their horses up” but let’s ask intelligent people what one must do to a horse to produce these artificial gaits.

[Palm_Beach]

[QUOTE=CenteredRiding;8775586]
Just read an article stating that western pleasure horses have natural collection (self carriage) in the field, and that training has spoilt their natural carriage. Here is the link:

Western Pleasure: It’s Time To Move Forward And Straighten Things Out

Am currently leasing a QH while learning about classical dressage. All my studies have indicated that horses left untrained do not have self carriage. They have a natural way of movement which can be beautiful to watch, but it’s not collected, i.e., hind legs doing equal share of load-bearing. (Exception being the stallion who arches his neck and lifts his back in “presentation” mode).

I’ve observed this in my QH: running in the field his head is high, face horizontal, tail up, back hollow. Is he an exception to those the article speaks of? Or are “western pleasure horses” (which must at least include quarterhorses) an exceptional breed from those studied in Europe and which studies culminate in modern dressage training?

(Maybe should post this in “Off Course” category? - it’s kind of cross-disciplined with dressage).

Curious what others think of the training vs. natural self-carriage question. Article’s got me confused. [/QUOTE]

Did you even READ the article???

“After years of breeding horses with self-carriage, natural lift, flowing strides, and level top lines, how did the western pleasure horse become something that receives so much criticism?”

“Many people also have the mindset that if going slow is good, than figuring out a way to go slower is even better. This applies to the slowness of the jog, the speed of the lope, the lack of knowledge of the gaits, and the desire to create the illusion of the split in the hock.”

“As with anything, it’s all about balance. If you go to the extremes to have the lowest headset, the slowest horse, and the deepest hock, you’re going to sacrifice the balance and integrity of the horse’s natural way of going.”

etc etc

"Those trainers who currently show western pleasure horses with correct movement and forward motion should continue to do so, regardless of sometimes being placed below the broken, mechanical movers. Others can work toward correcting the incorrect movement and work to enhance what is natural for the horse and begin working with, and not against, his self- carriage. With the naturally gifted horses that the industry has bred, these horses will only improve upon what they were already born to do. Judges should hold incorrect, artificial movers accountable by not placing them in the top five. "

You are a dressage rider and have experience with ONE HORSE and you want to compare quarter horses, who originated and are predominantly USA bred, with “those studied in Europe?”

Maybe a horse that can do this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpU8S7ZfWAE

has pretty good natural self carriage and balance.

You are comparing apples to oranges and want to know which tastes better.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Sunlight Star;8778738]
There is NOTHING natural about AQHA western pleasure horses. Watched an AQHA show in New Smyrna Beach FL a week and a half ago and my 8yo grandchildren even asked what gaits exactly the Western Pleasure horses were doing. They also asked about the fake tails on the western horses. It would have been a joke except it was a wonderful opportunity to show children what NOT to do…in particular #56 and #79 (I think) but it doesn’t matter because the only 2 decent horses/ riders were consistently placed last by the 4 judges.

So much for AQHA’s concern for the horses…not only could everyone, including the judges, see what the riders were doing to “warm their horses up” but let’s ask intelligent people what one must do to a horse to produce these artificial gaits.[/QUOTE]

You know, I feel that those gaited horses motoring around in their classes, goosestepping and legs flipping all over and tails cut so they stick up are very “unnatural” also, but I don’t go to their forums to tell them about it.

Everyone has the horses they have for their reasons.
We may like or not what they do with their horses, but just running their horses down when it is not asked for seems unnecessary.

If we want to question something, lets remember that maybe we don’t know anything about what they do and why, before we tell them what they are doing wrong.
One clear example, you thought the horses that placed last were the best.
Maybe consider you don’t know what is being judged in their class?

I also am not fond of western pleasure horses, but know that much knowledge, breeding and training go into them.
It is not as easy to ride one properly as those showing make it look.
It is very competitive and yes, it is a SHOW, where they showcase what they do, just like the rest of us do with our horses, that someone else may also not like.

[CenteredRiding]

[QUOTE=findthedistance;8778606]
Not all QHs are western pleasure horses. That’s a good starting point. And how a horse moves when it’s fresh and blasting around the field isn’t necessarily a fair demonstration of the horse’s natural movement. They all have the potential to get wild enough to run around like llamas. :lol:

Good, pleasure-bred QHs do travel low, slow, and balanced at liberty. As in any discipline, those athletes that naturally move in a manner close to the sport’s ideal are desirable and often easier to train. Is it “collection”? Not really. Is it “self-carriage”? I’d say yes. Then you add the weight of a rider to the mix and spend time chasing the level of self-carriage the horse had while loose.[/QUOTE]

Yup. That makes sense.

@MtnDrmz;8778727

I wouldn’t be surprised if perhaps that article was pointing towards allowing WP horses to move more forward and freely in the western pleasure classes, similar to how the good ones would at liberty, rather then trainers creating the ultra low, ultra slow style that many have today.

This too. Thanks.

[QUOTE=Palm Beach;8778755]Did you even READ the article???

“After years of breeding horses with self-carriage, natural lift, flowing strides, and level top lines, how did the western pleasure horse become something that receives so much criticism?”

“Many people also have the mindset that if going slow is good, than figuring out a way to go slower is even better. This applies to the slowness of the jog, the speed of the lope, the lack of knowledge of the gaits, and the desire to create the illusion of the split in the hock.”

“As with anything, it’s all about balance. If you go to the extremes to have the lowest headset, the slowest horse, and the deepest hock, you’re going to sacrifice the balance and integrity of the horse’s natural way of going.”

etc etc[/QUOTE]

Read it and was confused because I had the impression self-carriage needed to be trained. I think I was mistaken. Of course everyone is trying to breed it in, no doubt with success.

My interest in the western pleasure article was sparked because I’m leasing a QH boarded at a mostly-QH barn that trains/produces western pleasure horses. I see lots of them every day and often amazed how alike they look and move. Often can’t tell one from another. It’s like there’s some cookie cutter machine back near the round pen, where they use the harness contraptions on their backs with the reins attached real low, to “soften” their heads down to their knees.

So was interested in what this author was saying. Sounds like you agree with him and that’s what I was looking to hear. I see every day the kind of movement I believe this author is complaining of. And toplines like those in his 1st picture.

Makes me sad. To see & hear some of the things they do. Artificial is one word, there may be others.

[Sunsets]

[QUOTE=Palm Beach;8778755]
Did you even READ the article???

“After years of breeding horses with self-carriage, natural lift, flowing strides, and level top lines, how did the western pleasure horse become something that receives so much criticism?”

Maybe a horse that can do this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpU8S7ZfWAE

has pretty good natural self carriage and balance.

You are comparing apples to oranges and want to know which tastes better.[/QUOTE]

That is a video of a fantastic Western pleasure horse. He looks like a pleasure to ride. And yeah, I’d say he has “self-carriage” (though I suspect his rider or trainer really got it to shine). That horse could lope with a 2 year old up in the saddle. Just lovely.

But he’d get dinged in a dressage show for “not enough impulsion” And that’s OK. Valegro wouldn’t be able to lope around like that.

Apples and oranges.

[meaty_ogre]

OP, I think this thread went off on a tangent, as WP threads usually do, but back to your original question -

My WP bred and trained horse moves like $hit in the field. Hollow backed, canters close behind, no shoulder reach, heavy on his feet, as high headed as his neck will allow. Neither collected nor in what I’d call self-carriage. But, on the longe line or under saddle, he does lift his rib cage and he exhibits a definite preference for a slow, ambling lope rather than a ground covering canter. I’ve never seen him gallop. He is slow-legged both in the field and under saddle. He is definitely WP bred, but it still took training to get him to lift his back. No amount of training has helped him get his hocks to reach under himself though, and his reach with his front legs is still limited, though dressage work has gotten him more supple and straight.

My half-arab also carries himself around inverted (hollow backed and high headed) in the field, not surprisingly. Seems typical of Arabians and half-Arabians I have seen. My daughter’s pony also runs hollow-backed with her nose poked out. Both the pony and the half-arab can exhibit some impressive extension in the trot, but it’s what the dressage folks would call leg-movers.

My Thoroughbred is really the only horse I have seen voluntarily demonstrate self-carriage when running in the field, with lifted back, tucked hindquarters and hocks reaching well under himself, impressive propulsion and suspension.

[BigMama1]

All horses have natural self carriage. All trainers / riders ruin that when we first get on their backs and disrupt their natural balance. Good riding / training teaches the horse how to move in that self carriage again, even while carrying a wobbly human on their back.

What the writer is describing is exactly what I see in today’s wp classes - horses going so slowly as to almost be shuffling, laboured, lame-looking movement and horses so crooked they are almost loping sideways.

I’m not a western rider and never have been, but 20 years ago I boarded for some time at a QH barn and went to many, many shows. What a wp horse looked like then bears little resemblance to the zombie horses at many of today’s top shows. It saddens me because the QH is such a versatile, talented athlete. They deserve to be shown in a way that highlights their abilities and modern wp does not do that

[BigMama1]

[QUOTE=Sunsets;8778941]
That is a video of a fantastic Western pleasure horse. He looks like a pleasure to ride. And yeah, I’d say he has “self-carriage” (though I suspect his rider or trainer really got it to shine). That horse could lope with a 2 year old up in the saddle. Just lovely.

But he’d get dinged in a dressage show for “not enough impulsion” And that’s OK. Valegro wouldn’t be able to lope around like that.

Apples and oranges.[/QUOTE]

Agreed lovely horse. What I see as a non-western rider, however is a horse that is built and travels downhill, with the weight carried on the forehand. In my discipline that’s the opposite of collection so I need to understand what “collection” means in the WP context. Also what I understand collection to be can’t be achieved without impulsion.

At the lope the horse is often not straight, with the haunches noticeable carried to the inside, and the lope has a 4-beat tendency. Those are things I’d say make this horse a poor scorer in my discipline, but if those things are ok in wp, that’s great!

There is certainly none of the shuffling, lurching or lame steps I’ve seen in bad WP examples and this horse looks like a pure pleasure to ride, which is what laymen think WP is supposed to be

[Palm_Beach]

[QUOTE=BigMama1;8781882]
Agreed lovely horse. What I see as a non-western rider, however is a horse that is built and travels downhill, with the weight carried on the forehand. In my discipline that’s the opposite of collection so I need to understand what “collection” means in the WP context. Also what I understand collection to be can’t be achieved without impulsion.

At the lope the horse is often not straight, with the haunches noticeable carried to the inside, and the lope has a 4-beat tendency. Those are things I’d say make this horse a poor scorer in my discipline, but if those things are ok in wp, that’s great!

There is certainly none of the shuffling, lurching or lame steps I’ve seen in bad WP examples and this horse looks like a pure pleasure to ride, which is what laymen think WP is supposed to be :-)[/QUOTE]

He does not travel downhill at all. He has a different conformation than the dressage horses who have their necks in your lap. You need to look at his shoulders and back, not his neck and head. It’s much easier to feel than to see.

As you can see, western riders ride totally off the seat and leg, unlike dressage riders. So yes, there is a cant to the hindquarters, but that is because to get the lead changes you need to move the hips over, and in this pattern you do not have time to move them back before you hit the turn.

[monstrpony]

[QUOTE=Palm Beach;8782412]

So yes, there is a cant to the hindquarters, but that is because to get the lead changes you need to move the hips over, and in this pattern you do not have time to move them back before you hit the turn.[/QUOTE]

You don’t NEED to move the hips over; that’s simply how it is done in the western disciplines. In dressage, straightness in changes is valued because it reflects a higher gymnastic development of the horse, which is what dressage is about.

Not saying one is right or wrong, just different in terms of what is expected/accepted.

[Palm_Beach]

[QUOTE=monstrpony;8782463]
You don’t NEED to move the hips over; that’s simply how it is done in the western disciplines. In dressage, straightness in changes is valued because it reflects a higher gymnastic development of the horse, which is what dressage is about.

Not saying one is right or wrong, just different in terms of what is expected/accepted.[/QUOTE]

Yes, you do need to shift the hips because you are not using your hands to support and cue the horse like you do in dressage.

It’s so silly to come into a Western forum, ask questions, get Western answers, and then lecture because things are done different in dressage.

[BigMama1]

I look at a horse through a dressage trained eye so evaluate whether the horse is tracking up, whether the shoulder looks lower than the hip and other factors that are likely totally irrelevant in WP. That’s why it’s so hard for those of us from one discipline to evaluate another.

I don’t think monstrpony is being critical or telling you how it SHOULD be done. She (he?) did say it’s not a case of one being right or wrong. I will agree with her that you don’t need to move the horse’s hips in to get a clean flying change without using the reins. A quick google search will turn up several videos of lovely straight dressage-type changes from a bridle-less horse so it obviously can be done.

I’m also not convinced that the hip cant in WP is specific to the changes - in lots of videos of the modern WP many of us find painful to watch, the horses are loping on the rail almost sideways. Since they are not changing leads I’m curious what the purpose is? I read something about them trying to demonstrate a “deep hock” but don’t understand what that term means in this context or how it is achieved by having the horses hind end travelling to the inside of the shoulders. Would genuinely like to know - always cool to learn something new.

[meaty_ogre]

[QUOTE=BigMama1;8783255]

I’m also not convinced that the hip cant in WP is specific to the changes - in lots of videos of the modern WP many of us find painful to watch, the horses are loping on the rail almost sideways. Since they are not changing leads I’m curious what the purpose is? I read something about them trying to demonstrate a “deep hock” but don’t understand what that term means in this context or how it is achieved by having the horses hind end travelling to the inside of the shoulders. Would genuinely like to know - always cool to learn something new.[/QUOTE]

It’s mainly to keep them slow. The head canted in towards the rail serves as a sort of brake, and the angle does create the illusion of a “deeper hock” (i.e., it looks like the horse is stepping more underneath itself.

(I hesitated to answer your question because I’m afraid I will now draw the ire of many. This is from a very well respected and successful WP trainer in my area. I’m not criticizing or trying to incite a riot, just giving a genuine answer as it was taught to me).