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Western pleasure horses and natural self-carriage

Western
#21

[QUOTE=BigMama1;8783255]
I look at a horse through a dressage trained eye so evaluate whether the horse is tracking up, whether the shoulder looks lower than the hip and other factors that are likely totally irrelevant in WP. That’s why it’s so hard for those of us from one discipline to evaluate another.

I don’t think monstrpony is being critical or telling you how it SHOULD be done. She (he?) did say it’s not a case of one being right or wrong. I will agree with her that you don’t need to move the horse’s hips in to get a clean flying change without using the reins. A quick google search will turn up several videos of lovely straight dressage-type changes from a bridle-less horse so it obviously can be done.

I’m also not convinced that the hip cant in WP is specific to the changes - in lots of videos of the modern WP many of us find painful to watch, the horses are loping on the rail almost sideways. Since they are not changing leads I’m curious what the purpose is? I read something about them trying to demonstrate a “deep hock” but don’t understand what that term means in this context or how it is achieved by having the horses hind end travelling to the inside of the shoulders. Would genuinely like to know - always cool to learn something new.[/QUOTE]

Watching the Barcelona olympics dressage classes with several friends that ride western disciplines, their comments were how painful it was to watch those poor uptight, madly wild looking horses, continuously held so confined by their riders and made to prance around.
As one remarked, clearly disgusted, do they ever give a horse his head and let him just move on?

We can say, some don’t like how others ride and how they train, based in what they choose to do with their horses.
Are we really being that honest with ourselves thinking we are the holy grail of horsemanship, everyone else, by our measure, terribly misguided?

I say, let western pleasure folks do what they do, change as they have all along, is a very new discipline that just evolved a few decades ago and is still doing so, yes full of to the rest of horsemen strange ways of moving, but it is THEIR discipline, just as ours is OURS to do as we think is best.

3 Likes
#22

[QUOTE=meaty ogre;8783406]
It’s mainly to keep them slow. The head canted in towards the rail serves as a sort of brake, and the angle does create the illusion of a “deeper hock” (i.e., it looks like the horse is stepping more underneath itself.

(I hesitated to answer your question because I’m afraid I will now draw the ire of many. This is from a very well respected and successful WP trainer in my area. I’m not criticizing or trying to incite a riot, just giving a genuine answer as it was taught to me).[/QUOTE]

I believe you might be correct, although I ride the lope straight. Again, you have people from another discipline trolling on a board and demanding “answers” to their “thoughtful questions” because they want to “understand” when in reality they simply want to feel superior. There are good examples of Western horses and riders and bad examples. They are picking the bad examples and want to know why people ride like that. They need to contact the people they see who are riding like that and ask them. I do lateral work as part of my training routine, I don’t ride sideways at competitions unless it’s part of the pattern.

1 Like
#23

Sorry Palm Beach that you find someone asking questions about an unfamiliar discipline “trolling.”

In no way do I think I’m superior, or that dressage is superior. It’s simply what I know, therefore how I look at horses. Asking to understand what collection means in a WP context, or why in a rail class the horses are loping with their hips to the inside are pretty reasonable questions I think, and I thank those who actually took the time to answer. I’ve seen videos of what I think is “bad” WP from some of the biggest shows and the top horses in the country, so while you may not be riding like that it appears like many are. Just like seeing rollkur and blue tongues in some FEI dressage warm up rings. It’s not everyone, but it’s out there at the highest levels and in any discipline you have to wonder how it becomes acceptable.

Do I, and many other think, modern WP is painful to watch? Yes! Just the same as Bluey pointed out that some WP riders find dressage painful to watch. It’s because we don’t understand what’s going on in the other discipline. And how are we supposed to understand if we don’t ask questions? (And there is a lot of bad dressage out there that I find painful to watch too!)

The video posted was a pleasure to watch and reminded me of the WP classes I saw 20+ years ago. I didn’t understand a few things in it though, and again I thank those who answered, rather than implying each discipline is like a clubhouse which no outsiders may enter :wink:

1 Like
#24

I think that the article is written to counter the excesses in the current WP ring, and they may be using the term self carriage a bit differently than the dressage riders use it.

1 Like
#25

[QUOTE=Palm Beach;8782853]
Yes, you do need to shift the hips because you are not using your hands to support and cue the horse like you do in dressage.

It’s so silly to come into a Western forum, ask questions, get Western answers, and then lecture because things are done different in dressage.[/QUOTE]

You are guilty of the same thing you are accusing me of. One does not use their hands to “support and cue” for a change in dressage. Correct contact is not a death grip, nor is the horse leaning on it in any way. It IS possible to get a straight, correct change without rein aids; the horse just has to be physically developed and schooled in the appropriate aids.

Again, there is NOTHING wrong with doing it a different way, if that is what is expected and accepted in another discipline. It is possibly easier for the horse to shift their hips in preparing for the change, and if all you want is a quiet, efficient change, that’s a way to go. There is also nothing wrong with going a bit further in the horse’s gymnastic development and achieving a straight flying change, if that is your interest. They’re just … different.

I have spent time in both disciplines, and understand and appreciate the purpose and motivation in each case. I’m not making any kind of judgment here, just an observation, and possibly, clarification.

2 Likes
#26

[QUOTE=BigMama1;8784066]

The video posted was a pleasure to watch and reminded me of the WP classes I saw 20+ years ago. I didn’t understand a few things in it though, and again I thank those who answered, rather than implying each discipline is like a clubhouse which no outsiders may enter ;-)[/QUOTE]

I hope we never go back to how the horses looked 20 years ago. I’ve been showing pleasure horses since the early 90’s. The problem is some horses are so good at what they do, people take lesser horses and try to make them look like the good ones. My mare will never have the big strong rocking horse canter. She can not hold her hock in the ground like some of the big strong horses. If I tried to make her do that, she would be a 4 beat troping fool. It’s all in the education of the rider. We all want the fancy winning horse, but there is a reason those horses are so expensive. Heck, my 20 yr old retired gelding can still out lope many of the younger horses. He’s 16hh and was fancy in his day, he’s still fancy now.

A horse showing true collection should have his outside rear hoof print line up with his inside front hoof print. Again, if a little is good, lots must be better. Wrong mentality.

6 Likes
#27

[QUOTE=AQHA4me;8785110]

A horse showing true collection should have his outside rear hoof print line up with his inside front hoof print. Again, if a little is good, lots must be better. Wrong mentality.[/QUOTE]

How so? Do you mean that in western disciplines true collection requires a horse to not be straight?

Not inciting, just asking for clarification.

#28

If you watch a pleasure horse at liberty they will travel this way. I think collection and western pleasure are misnomers, we want lift and drive. We want the horses to have self carriage.

#29

[QUOTE=monstrpony;8785066]
You are guilty of the same thing you are accusing me of. One does not use their hands to “support and cue” for a change in dressage. [/QUOTE]

No, I’m not. The only discipline that I have not done is driving. You do use your hands to support and cue in dressage - which does not mean you carry the horse’s head around the ring with your hands. Hopefully you don’t need contact explained to you.

For the people with all the questions, a quick google search will bring you to the AQHA rule book. But that’s just not as much fun, right?

http://services2.aqha.com/iphonedev/www/sections/sectionIV/rules/433-463/447.html

  1. Gaits

(a) The following terminology shall apply in all western classes:

(1) The walk is a natural, flat–footed, four–beat gait. The horse must move straight and true at the walk. The walk must be alert, with a stride of reasonable length in keeping with the size of the horse.

(2) The jog is a smooth, ground–covering two–beat diagonal gait. The horse works from one pair of diagonals to the other pair. The jog should be square, balanced and with straight, forward movement of the feet. Horses walking with their back feet and trotting in the front are not considered performing the required gait. When asked to extend the jog, it moves out with the same smooth way of going.

(3) The lope is an easy, rhythmical three–beat gait. Horses moving to the left should lope on the left lead. Horses moving to the right should lope on the right lead. Horses traveling at a four–beat gait are not considered to be performing at a proper lope. The horse should lope with a natural stride and appear relaxed and smooth. It should be ridden at a speed that is a natural way of going. The head should be carried at an angle which is natural and suitable to the horse’s conformation at all gaits.

(d) The following terminology is a description of western pleasure gaits:

The Walk

(1) Poor walk – uneven pace and no cadence. Has no flow and may appear intimidated or appear to march.

(2) Average walk – has a four–beat gait, level top–line and is relaxed.

(3) Good walk – has a flowing four–beat gait, level topline, relaxed and is bright and attentive.

The Jog

(1) Extremely poor jog – cannot perform a two–beat gait and has no flow or balance in the motion.

(2) Very poor jog – hesitates in the motion. Does not keep an even and balanced motion or a level top–line. May appear to shuffle.

(3) Poor jog – average motion but has negative characteristics such as; walking with the hind legs, dragging the rear toes or taking an uneven length of stride with the front and rear legs.

(4) Correct or average jog – has a two–beat gait, a level top–line and a relaxed appearance.

(5) Good jog – has an average motion with positive characteristics such as balance and self–carriage while taking the same length of stride with the front and rear legs.

(6) Very good jog – is comfortable to ride while having a consistent two–beat gait. The horse guides well, appears relaxed and has a level top–line.

(7) Excellent jog – effortless and very efficient motion. Swings the legs yet touches the ground softly. Confident, yet soft with its motion while being balanced and under control. Moves flat with the knee and hock and has some cushion in the pastern. Has a bright and alert expression and exhibits more lift and self–carriage than the “very good jog”.

Moderate Extended Jog

(1) Poor extended jog – never lengthens the stride and may appear rough to ride.

(2) Average extended jog – moves up in its pace and appears smooth to ride.

(3) Good extended jog – has an obvious lengthening of stride with a slight increase in pace while exerting less effort and appears smooth to ride.

The Lope

(1) Extremely poor lope – does not have a three–beat gait. Has no flow, rhythm or balance. Uncomfortable to ride.

(2) Very poor lope – appears to have a three–beat lope but has no lift or self–carriage. The horse shuffles, has no flow and bobs his head, giving the appearance of exerting a great deal of effort to perform the gait. Also may appear uncomfortable to ride.

(3) Poor lope – has an average motion but exhibits negative characteristics like head bobbing, not completing the stride with the front leg and leaving the outside hock well behind the horse’s buttocks.

(4) Average lope – has a true three–beat gait with a level top–line and very little head and neck motion. He is relatively straight (not over–canted), guides well and has a relaxed appearance.

(5) Good lope – has an average motion but exhibits positive characteristics in his performance like self–carriage, a steady topline, relaxed appearance and is responsive to the rider’s aids.

(6) Very good lope – has more lift and flow than the average horse. He has a strong but smooth drive from behind. He may bend his knee slightly yet still has a level top–line while exhibiting self–carriage with a relaxed appearance. Appears comfortable to ride.

(7) Excellent lope – has a round back with an effortless strong, deep stride with the rear legs and a flat swing with the front legs. He keeps a level top–line, a relaxed yet alert and confident appearance and is correct but soft. A special horse with a great degree of lift and self–carriage.

#30

Palm Beach I really don’t understand why you are so opposed to people asking questions of other COTHers. It’s what we do in every other forum and how we learn.

The rules are very interesting - thanks for posting - but they make me even more puzzled because so many of the videos circulating last year from big shows had placing and winning horses demonstrating what could only be described as a (2) lope, specifically the shuffling, head-bobbing and effort.

Is what you’re seeing in the show ring generally reflective of the description in the rules? Or is it like dressage where the winning piaffe often bears little resemblance to the criteria set out in the FEI rule book?

#31

At shows, the wp horses are judged as a group, ranked, and the top ranked ones get ribbons. They are placed in relation to each other, not scored like dressage. What “big shows” are you going to? What classes are you watching?

#32

[QUOTE=Palm Beach;8787151]
At shows, the wp horses are judged as a group, ranked, and the top ranked ones get ribbons. They are placed in relation to each other, not scored like dressage. What “big shows” are you going to? What classes are you watching?[/QUOTE]

Not going to any. The videos I’m talking about were circulating last year from Congress and a couple of other big shows. They were rail classes with all the horses
going in a group. The videos caused quite a bit of outrage and controversy at the time, as did some from the warm up rings. Wondering if that trickles down to lower level local shows when people see horses like that pinning at the big shows? Or is it more a case of a few bad examples getting the media attention and not really indicative of what goes on at most shows?

#33

One of the reasons horses were asked to lope canted to the inside was for the optical illusion that they were driving deeper with the inside leg.

I think it is finally on its way out.

I didn’t get to watch any of the YWS WP classes live as we were getting ready for other stuff. I did watch the finals online. Everything was moving pretty forward (relatively)
It is all relative.

1 Like
#34

[QUOTE=BigMama1;8787202]
Not going to any. The videos I’m talking about were circulating last year from Congress and a couple of other big shows. They were rail classes with all the horses
going in a group. The videos caused quite a bit of outrage and controversy at the time, as did some from the warm up rings. Wondering if that trickles down to lower level local shows when people see horses like that pinning at the big shows? Or is it more a case of a few bad examples getting the media attention and not really indicative of what goes on at most shows?[/QUOTE]

Congress is just a really big show. Anyone can go. You don’t have to be good. I can show you some pretty weak rounds from Culpeper.

And do you really think that people who ride at the local level are such yokels that they look at a video from Congress and go, “Oh, so THAT’S how it’s done”???

There is a misperception in both the Western and English world that people who don’t travel the circuit are inferior riders and trainers.

#35

This is impressive!

1 Like
#36

I skimmed, so forgive me if someone has addressed this point already: What about the conformational AQHA trainwrecks that are being bred these days? High behind, straight hocks, straight pasterns, and straight shoulders… of course these horses can’t move for crap! Perhaps that’s the idea, though, based on what WP has become.

#37

Halter horses and pleasure horses share virtually no up close common breeding these days - they’ve essentially become two separate sub-breeds. Other divisions within the QH ranks include: hunter types (mostly TB at this point), racing types (also mostly TB), reiners/working cow horses/ranch horses, cutters (extremely specialized at this point!), foundation bred, etc. The conformational flaws you’re talking about are NOT, I promise you, conducive to a good-moving performance horse for any discipline.

And this “if a little is good, a lot must be better” mentality is certainly not exclusive to QHs. Look at gaited horses, modern dressage breeding, Arabian halter horses, or even conformation dog breeders. It’s really easy to forget that form should follow function when you’re chasing the most recent show-ring fad. Luckily, there are many dedicated breeders in all breeds/disciplines who work hard to avoid these pitfalls.

4 Likes
#38

You (all) understand that the horse in the video is a reiner and not a WP horse, right?

As I understand it, horses bred for those disciplines do not come from the same AQHA lines.

So I don’t think a reiner going bridleless has much to demonstrate about how WP horses are built or naturally carry themselves.

1 Like
#39

Not a reiner, lol. He’s a very impressive and titled western riding horse, but Lord have mercy he’s not a reiner.

4 Likes
#40

^^This. Harley D Zip is absolutely NOT a reiner. At all. Per an AQHA press release when he was made into a Breyer:

The talented champion’s record boasts nearly 6,000 AQHA points, including 2,300 open western riding points. The multiple All American Quarter Horse Congress champion and Congress amateur versatility champion is a three-time AQHA year-end all-around high-point horse; multiple year-end high-point junior and senior horse; and by class has earned 11 year-end high-point championships. As a 16-time world champion and nine-time reserve world champion, Harley is an example of how versatile and well-rounded the American Quarter Horse is.

“All-around” = pleasure type bloodlines in almost every case, I can assure you (as would a glance at his pedigree).

1 Like

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