We've decided to get a puppy - breeder recommendations?

So, I spent quite a bit of time yesterday chatting with two local ladies who used to be really big into Newf breeding/showing. They were both very nice, helpful, and seemed to really know their stuff.

Problem was, they each advised me away from the breeders the other recommended. And they both held strong opinions! The “you can’t go wrong” breeder to one, was the “RUN AWAY” breeder to the other.

A bit frustrating; it has me considering buying a “bargain basement” newf from a kijiji ad for $800 and just hoping for the best, instead of putting mega bucks into a fancy dog from a “reputable” breeder!

[QUOTE=saultgirl;8025955]
Problem was, they each advised me away from the breeders the other recommended. And they both held strong opinions! The “you can’t go wrong” breeder to one, was the “RUN AWAY” breeder to the other. [/QUOTE]

And what is your opinion of both recommended breeders? Do they health test their dogs? Do they offer guarantees? Do they ask for a questionnaire? Will they let you have some input into the pup you get? Are either/both close enough for you to go visit in person and meet the potential parents of the litter?

Me? Don’t know that I’d go ‘bargain basement’ on a purebred if that is what I was looking for. I want to spend what is the current “going rate” for a purebred and feel good about the pup, the parents, and the environment in which the pup will be raised…

How funny!

I would try to keep an open mind, continue your research on reputable breeders through the national and regional Newf clubs as far as who does the required health testing and is breeding for the correct temperament and conformation. There will be names that continue to come up.

Buying a poorly bred animal is not a solution.

[QUOTE=saultgirl;8025955]
So, I spent quite a bit of time yesterday chatting with two local ladies who used to be really big into Newf breeding/showing. They were both very nice, helpful, and seemed to really know their stuff.

Problem was, they each advised me away from the breeders the other recommended. And they both held strong opinions! The “you can’t go wrong” breeder to one, was the “RUN AWAY” breeder to the other.

A bit frustrating; it has me considering buying a “bargain basement” newf from a kijiji ad for $800 and just hoping for the best, instead of putting mega bucks into a fancy dog from a “reputable” breeder![/QUOTE]

Oh, please don’t get discouraged and settle for a backyard-bred animal. You may be opening up a whole can of trouble down the road in terms of health and/or behavior problems.

Dog people are no different from horse people in that they can have strong opinions about who they do and don’t like and why–sometimes based more on personalities of the people than anything to do with the dogs!!

The best thing to do is form your opinion first-hand.

What do you want to do with your Newfoundland? And it is perfectly fine to say–I want a healthy companion. I am not sure what the comparable is in Canada, but in the US, you can use www.offa.org to verify that the health testing you’re told about has truly been done.

I don’t see tons of Newfoundlands in obedience/rally, but would encourage you to look at some of the dogs in those venues and see where they trace back to. IMHO, if the dogs are from kennels with dogs competing in these venues, they’re often likely to make good family pets. As much as I love agility, I wouldn’t necessarily use that a benchmark of ability to live in an average family situation. My up and coming girl would be a demon dog in an average family.

Also, do not be put off by only meeting the mother. While I currently have a resident male, most of my litters have been born off of shipped, fresh chilled semen from a few thousand miles away. I’d say the more family members you can meet, the better. I let prospective puppy buyers meet multiple generations.

I’d also say definitely not a breed to get off of Kijii. The health testing with the breed is pretty extensive, in part due to some cardiac issues. You may want to widen your search radius.

I should also add, that my faith in the more reputable breeders is a bit shaken by the fact that both the ladies I spoke with (who have been breeding and/or showing Newfs since the late 70’s) both had to euth a fancy Newf in the last year due to serious genetic health issues. So buying the best money can buy doesn’t seem to guard against major problems.

Then I’m hearing comments about some breeders such as

“using stolen x-rays/vet records”
“continuing to breed lines with heart/elbow/hip problems”
“sells with a guarantee but you’ll never collect on the guarantee from her if you need to”
“I’ve heard there are lawsuits against that kennel in the works”
“the guarantee offered comes with a strict and very weird food plan requirement”
“none of his dogs follow breed standards”

I’ve sent a few more emails but haven’t heard back from any other breeders today. I also heard that if breeders talk to each other and find out that I’ve contacted more than one breeder, they won’t get back to me because it shows I’m not serious about them.

As far as meeting a lot of these people and dogs… I’m looking at a 7-9 hour drive to the closest ones so it’s unlikely I’ll be making the trip more than the one time to pick up the puppy. And if we’re being realistic, I can’t imagine that I would decide on a puppy (or rather, be gifted with the privilege of being chosen to pay $$$$ for a puppy), then driving all that way and then deciding the mom is not quite like the pictures, and then turning down the puppy.

This is frustrating. Husband and I have always said that our mutt is the best $40 we ever spent, but that certainly seems to be more true now than ever!

[QUOTE=saultgirl;8026634]
Then I’m hearing comments about some breeders such as

“using stolen x-rays/vet records”
“continuing to breed lines with heart/elbow/hip problems”
“sells with a guarantee but you’ll never collect on the guarantee from her if you need to”
“I’ve heard there are lawsuits against that kennel in the works”
“the guarantee offered comes with a strict and very weird food plan requirement”
“none of his dogs follow breed standards”

I’ve sent a few more emails but haven’t heard back from any other breeders today. I also heard that if breeders talk to each other and find out that I’ve contacted more than one breeder, they won’t get back to me because it shows I’m not serious about them. [/QUOTE]

Don’t worry about what breeders might say to each other; you have every right to talk to multiple breeders - and 99.99% of them would agree that you should (except when they are expecting puppies) :slight_smile:

I also would tell you not to listen to the “breeder gossip”. It’s worse than junior high, in some cases. I’m not exactly sure why people are so catty…I guess jealousy and competition. But you hear “that stuff” in lots of breeds and a lot of it is totally untrue (or at least, totally unfounded…just rumors. Maybe some of the are true, but the people spreading the rumors don’t know anything for sure).

The bottom line is that you may have to do some digging, some traveling and/or some waiting before you find the right match for a breeder and a puppy. I second the idea of finding a local breed club if you can.

If you’ve only talked to two breeders, you’ve not yet scratched the surface.

You need to talk to many breeders.

We are accustomed to the fact that nowadays, prospective homes send emails to every single breeder on the breed website (often without divulging where they live or anything beyond "do you have any puppies?)

There are indeed reputable breeders of Newfs who don’t do any of those questionable practices.

Make it your job to find them.

Any dog shows near you where you might get to meet some more folks in your chosen breed? I’m not sure if you’re in the US or Canada, but in the US www.infodog.com lists many of the AKC shows

[QUOTE=Houndhill;8026698]
If you’ve only talked to two breeders, you’ve not yet scratched the surface.

You need to talk to many breeders.

We are accustomed to the fact that nowadays, prospective homes send emails to every single breeder on the breed website (often without divulging where they live or anything beyond "do you have any puppies?)

There are indeed reputable breeders of Newfs who don’t do any of those questionable practices.

Make it your job to find them.[/QUOTE]

The two ladies I spoke with are not breeders any more (I specifically wanted to speak with some people who don’t have a dog in the fight).

I sent out a few more (detailed) emails today, and one breeder did call me. I’ll be calling her back later.

Remember offa.org and the CHIC database are your friends. Don’t be afraid to ask about health… don’t be afraid to ask the breeder if they’ve had pups returned due to health-related issues.

Sure, can the breeder lie about the sire? Yeah, but at some point, you gotta trust someone. And find out if the parents have titles, either conformation or performance. It isn’t a guarantee, but another box to check that the parents have done something besides have (or make) puppies.

I know that I found out about the litter I am hoping to get a pup from via my trainer who has been in BTs for many years doing performance competition. She’s never bred but she seems to know who is who… Told me about the litter and I contacted the breeder. So, in my case, the trust in the breeder was built-in from my trainer.

Wasn’t sure how far away you were from the prospective litters :wink:

If there is something in the contract you don’t like… don’t get a puppy and don’t sign it. I haven’t asked my breeder if she wants to be co-owner but for me, that is not a big deal as I do not plan on breeding this pup and she knows that. This kid will be a companion for the one I have along with performance work (not conformation).

There are unscrupulous breeders just like there are unscrupulous horse people (or any kind of people). Due your due diligence and trust what your gut is telling you… and a bargain basement pup will probably be worth every penny you paid for it.

BLech. I think I’m just going to give up on this idea. I’m reading on the Newf rescue site about “minimum requirements” for having a newf, and apparently I just don’t add up. I fail at:

-budget of $2,000 to $2,500 per year for life for vet care, not including serious illness or injury (apparently my newf mutt has been extraordinarily healthy in the years I’ve had him – I filled out a puppy application form and answered yearly estimated budget of $250 per year? Is $2000-$2500 per year what “good” dog owners spend at the vet?)
-newf sized dog crate (I just use a small room when necessary)
-fenced yard (nope)
-“appropriate grooming tools for your dog which at a bare minimum should include a slicker, an undercoat brush, nail clippers, straight scissors, thinning scissors, combs, dog shampoos, conditioner, de-tangler, etc.” lol we’ve survived thus far with a brush and nail clippers.
-"If you don’t have the facilities at home to bathe a 130 lb dog, be prepared to pay a pretty penny a few times a year to have it done professionally, " (umm, it’s $10 at the self-serve dog wash?!)

If this is the stuff breeders are going to want to hear from me, I just don’t think I can do it!

The veterinary care estimate is high. While it varies some by region, I would expect $3-500 to cover a typical year. There is the option of pet insurance. I show my corgis in the breed ring and don’t have that much equipment. If you were to take a Newfoundland for professional grooming, I would expect to be in the eighth dollar range

I think the rescue groups make their requirements so onerous to make people think twice before making an impulsive adoption. Some of the rescue dogs may also come with “baggage”.

Newfs are more expensive at the vet because of their size - heart worm medicine in particular - but that cost estimate is way too high. I think the $300-500 range is about right also.

I washed mine with a hose outside. When they were little we used the bath tub, but they can clog the drain… If you take a newf to the groomer, expect to pay a small fortune (up to $100 for a wash, comb out and dry). They have a double coat, the outer being almost waterproof, the inner very thick and fine, so it takes effort. Don’t really need the conditioner/detangler if you don’t want to use it. You don’t really need to bathe them frequently; you can dry out their skin and cause skin problems. They shed a little all year, but about twice a year they blow their undercoat, so a undercoat brush/comb is very helpful. Expect some intensive grooming and LOTS of hair during that time (they can burn out your vacuum cleaner motor!). Really, I can not emphasize this enough - there will be LOTS of hair. It will come out in tufts. It is very fine and fluffy and will float through the room. When my daughter was just a baby, she was crawling and drooled a little because she was teething, and she looked like she had a black beard. If you are not diligent with grooming, you can get some terrible mats. Don’t suggest shaving them down because it will eventually mess up the outer coat. However, I will admit to shaving my newfs when they got old because they were arthritic and the grooming was hard on them (one lived to be almost 14 yrs old - very old for a newf). Scissors and thinning shears are for making them neater (trim feathers, ears, feet), but not really necessary if you aren’t showing. The breeder should be able to show you the basics of grooming/trimming. Also expect drool. Our Newfs had “tight mouths” and did not drool much, but some can be faucets. They all get long drool strings when you have a tasty treat and watch out if they shake their heads! They also like to stick their muzzles all the way into their water bowls and come up dripping. Oh, and they like to play in water!

We did crate train ours and did have a giant crate. Again not necessary, but it does make house training much easier. You could probably get a used one for a decent price if really needed, but a small room with a tall, sturdy gate may be all you need.

I would really suggest budgeting for some obedience training. They are BIG dogs and can easily drag a large adult man and knock someone over if they jump up. Our bitch was about 120 lbs, and our male was 150 lbs. Puppy classes are also great for socialization.

Newfs can be a lot of work and cost more to own then many other dogs. We have owned a variety of dogs over the years - doxie, shih tzu, golden, welsh terrier, Aussie and Newfs, and hands down, the Newfs have been the best ones for us. The sweetest, most even tempered, laid-back dogs that would place themselves between their people and a stranger, never aggressive and very tolerant of kids.

Here’s my advice (and take it if you want).

From what we can tell (and that is only from your first post), you’ve just decided to buy a purebred puppy. And not two days later, you’re totally disappointed with the world of purebred dogs and breeding (and rescue). As Houndhill said; you’ve barely scratched the surface.

I know a lot of breeders, some great, some good…some not that great, etc. At least 50% of them (especially the great ones) don’t have websites, or don’t update them regularly. They don’t have to - because people who know the breed know who they are. And that would be a great breeder’s first choice when placing puppies – to place them back into the fold of breed fanciers.

If you find a breeder online that is willing to sell you a puppy – I’ll bet $100 they would not make the “great breeder” list. That’s not how great breeders work – they spend their entire lives doing this; they aren’t going to sell puppies like used saddles.

So, if you want to buy a well-bred puppy from a great breeder, you need to do some work on your own to find them, and to demonstrate that you are a great home for the product of their life’s work.

I am the secretary of my regional breed club - and I got an email just this morning from someone looking for a puppy. It just happens that I know of about 5 litters on the ground or being bred from GREAT breeders. If you haven’t tried to get in touch with a regional Newf club and/or the national breed club – do it now…and give people a chance to respond.

These are the American links, but you may also find CA links helpful):
http://www.ncanewfs.org/
http://www.ncanewfs.org/regclubs/pages/regclubmap.html#.VO2r9MJ0zIU
http://www.glnewfclub.org/Breeders-List.html

Also, Facebook is a great resource. There is a FB page devoted to my breed – “for sale”…upcoming litters, puppies, and older dogs that need rehoming for one reason or another. This doesn’t eliminate the research – not everyone on FB is a good breeder. But it might give you some ideas.

Finally, I agree with neversaynever about rescue groups – most of the dogs they have to replace have been abandoned already by someone – often because they were not prepared to deal with the breed (don’t have the $, don’t have the room, don’t have the patience, etc.) They tend to set the bar very high to prevent a 2nd abandonment. It is likely that you would meet the requirements of a rescue dog, but they are keeping people from just going “awww…this poor dog NEEDS a good home.”

Good luck!

Just to clarify – I was on the rescue site to review their list of recommended breeders. I don’t want to go that route this time. My current dog was a rescue and he had a lot of issues that needed to be retrained.

I’ll admit to being a little overly dramatic here; I was just disheartened by having these lengthy, informative conversations with two people who know the “who’s who” of the breed, and then got completely conflicting information as far as who I should contact and who I should avoid.

I did make a few more contacts later last evening which I will follow up with today. One was highly recommended by one person I spoke with, and not mentioned by the other. I’m probably going to email the other to see what she says.

Like geez, I just everything in my life to be simple, convenient, reasonably priced and of exceptional quality, is that too much to ask??! :lol:

[QUOTE=saultgirl;8027463]
Like geez, I just everything in my life to be simple, convenient, reasonably priced and of exceptional quality, is that too much to ask??! :lol:[/QUOTE]

Yes, it probably is when it comes to dogs… :slight_smile:

Was the rescue the Newf rescue or some other more local rescue? If not the national breed rescue, then why would you believe their list of recommended breeders. I’d be thinking the good breeders wouldn’t even make the rescue’s radar.

Where did you get the names of the two people who know the “who’s who” of the Newf breed? I don’t think I’d be able to discover this in two days of research on either of the breeders I have any experience with.

With my Bouviers, I started with a local breeder for my first one and then starting attending dog shows and making acquaintances with other competitors and started learning the who’s who of Bouviers. All of my pups came based on personal knowledge or recommendations from people I had know for quite some time.

I’m just getting into BTs. Found my first, and current, a bit by accident. The litter I am now on the list for, I found out about from my trainer. When I sent email inquiring about a puppy, I used my trainer’s name as reference so it would not appear to be a complete off the wall inquiry.

Getting a high quality, healthy (can we all say healthy enough) puppy is a task for someone getting into a purebred breed, it is not an overnight acquisition. Much research and be prepared to wait once you do find the right breeder(s) until the right pup comes along.

Well, I just got officially turned down by the first breeder due to not having a fenced in yard :frowning:

:frowning:

IMO, no fenced yard may be a deal breaker for more than one breeder. But keep looking. How feasible to put in a fenced area that the dog can be in except when you go out for walks?

[QUOTE=Where’sMyWhite;8028875]
:frowning:

IMO, no fenced yard may be a deal breaker for more than one breeder. But keep looking. How feasible to put in a fenced area that the dog can be in except when you go out for walks?[/QUOTE]

I would consider putting in a fenced area if I could put it up near the house, but there isn’t room close to the house to put it, and I don’t like the idea of penning up a dog away from the house.

The plan is for the puppy to be on a leash until it’s trained enough to be off a leash (or when it is in one of the fenced areas on the farm).

I was a bit upset at first about this, but now that I’ve had time to analyze the situation, it’s probably for the best. There were some red flags in the conversation and the lady seemed a little flaky. She got a little funny when I started asking her about her policies/adoption contract (she didn’t want to talk about a contract unless I was going to get a puppy); she admitted her bitch didn’t get the clearance on her hips (but she said she bred her to a stud with nice hips), and twice she avoided direct questions and changed the subject.

She just bred one of her girls this weekend and said she couldn’t promise me a puppy from this litter (which was fine) . She said she had another breeding planned for summer but she said she wouldn’t reveal the name of the stud so as to not “jinx it”.

She also got a little rude when I said I would rather confine the dog to a small room rather than a crate “Well that’s fine, but when your dog is at the vet’s office for surgery and it’s freaking out because it’s in a crate…” :confused: I dunno, my current dog doesn’t have a crate and he was quiet when he had surgery last year.

Oh well. I’m waiting to hear back from a couple more. I think one of the breeders I had high hopes for might not work out because they want you to come to the kennel to visit several times before getting a puppy, and they want to come and inspect your home, and it’s about an 8 hour drive away from here.