I feel I have totally wasted my time and effort here.
[QUOTE=Houndhill;8038519]
I feel I have totally wasted my time and effort here.[/QUOTE]
You haven’t; I’m sorry you feel this way. This whole thing has been pretty mind-blowing for me.
I’m learning a lot. At first I was totally “I am ABSOLUTELY only going to purchase a puppy from a REPUTABLE breeder”… but I have now opened my mind and I am considering all options.
I don’t really want a purebred dog bad enough to jump through all these hoops.
[QUOTE=Houndhill;8037269]
Many of the breeders I know (including myself) do not accept any kind of deposits, and certainly would not want someone to feel obligated to go through with acquiring a puppy if their circumstances changed, or for any reason, for fear of losing a non-refundable deposit!
Also, if the breeder has not even seen your application, how do they know they would even consider you for a puppy? It seems premature of the breeder to require a deposit when they haven’t even seen the application, let alone one that is non-refundable.
I don’t blame you for not being comftable with that, I wouldn’t be either.[/QUOTE]
I didn’t directly address your post earlier so I do apologize – I read it and I appreciate your input. To clarify, the deposit “becomes non-refundable once the application is approved”.
I sent the application form with no mention of the deposit; I’ll see what she says.
Additional questions:
Would it be ok to ask the breeder for her vet’s name and number so I can get a reference from her vet and confirm her dogs are healthy?
Also, I was going to request contact information for two prior puppy purchasers to see if they’ve been happy with their puppies. This information should be willingly provided by a reputable breeder, I am assuming?
Not to make anyone’s head explode, but I also got my son’s GSD from a backyard breeder. :lol: Called on the ad, talked to the old guy selling the pups, called his vet that verified the guy has been breeding dogs forever and vet has never seen any genetic issues with them, paid the man $400 and went home with our new puppy that was actually still a puppy when we got him, which we wanted. He’s what we wanted, we aren’t breeding him and we’re very happy with him.
When I was looking for that GSD I saw all kinds of fubared dogs for $1500 and up that you had to beg the people to please let you put a few thousand dollars in their pocket to buy one of their dogs and be told how it was going to go. I stopped looking and went to craigslist, found a pup, done. There are NO GSD’s in our local shelters (and weren’t when we were looking either), whatever other pups were in his litter are not in the shelters/rescues here.
There is a lower rung of dog breeding that is irresponsible and it’s just b/c the owner took NO care with their dog but there are many Many MANY breeders that are mid-tier and not so full of themselves that they make such a federal case out of someone getting a dog.
I think what OP is going through is ridiculous, honestly. She may have more patience than I ever did, though.
[QUOTE=cowboymom;8038625]
I think what OP is going through is ridiculous, honestly. She may have more patience than I ever did, though.[/QUOTE]
The OP has only been “going through” the search for a dog breeder for…one week? Really, it seems a bit soon to give it up as a lost cause due to lack of patience or unrealistic “hoops.”
If you really, truly only want a pet - and don’t care about a dog being a well-bred, healthy specimen of the breed…there is nothing wrong with just going to the local shelter and finding a great pet. Or considering breed rescue, where you may have no information about the dog, but are willing to give it a good home.
If you really want a well-bred, healthy specimen of a purebred dog - it is really unrealistic to expect a few days on Google to match you with a well-bred, yet inexpensive purebred puppy, immediately. This is what people spend their LIVES doing - it’s not just sperm meets egg. If you don’t care about that…then you are really looking for the wrong thing.
Trying to find a quality breeder (like Houndhill, or some others here) on Kijiji…just ain’t going to happen. In horse terms - you’re not likely to find an AA horse at Camelot. Could it happen? Sure. Once in a lifetime…if you’re lucky.
[QUOTE=Houndhill;8038519]
I feel I have totally wasted my time and effort here.[/QUOTE]
I’m with you, Houndhill.
A contract does not make a good breeder.
If you are that hot to trot to get a purebred puppy, by all means, get one off Craigslist or Kijiji or the box in the back of the station wagon in the grocery store parking lot.
Yes, you can get a puppy from a reputable breeder that ends up with health problems. But it is less likely than if you get one from any of the sources above.
I don’t suggest you come back here in 2 years talking about how your heart is broken because you fell in love and bought a pup and now find out it has some congenital heart condition. Will the breeder take it back, maybe? Will you want to give it back or “trade it” (depending on the conditions of the contract).
Contracts are great until you factor in, in this case, the living being associated with that contract.
[QUOTE=saultgirl;8038612]
Additional questions:
Would it be ok to ask the breeder for her vet’s name and number so I can get a reference from her vet and confirm her dogs are healthy?
Also, I was going to request contact information for two prior puppy purchasers to see if they’ve been happy with their puppies. This information should be willingly provided by a reputable breeder, I am assuming?[/QUOTE]
Neither of those would likely be an issue. What most of us call our dogs is not their registered names. I provide prospective buyer’s with the registered names and the link to the OFA database so they can see proof of health testing. Nobody should be put off by you asking for that information
[QUOTE=Marshfield;8038778]
Neither of those would likely be an issue. What most of us call our dogs is not their registered names. I provide prospective buyer’s with the registered names and the link to the OFA database so they can see proof of health testing. Nobody should be put off by you asking for that information[/QUOTE]
Thank you. I will feel better about some of these issues if I can speak to some people who have puppies from some of these breeders, I think.
[QUOTE=saultgirl;8038485]
the fancy ones get crippled, too.[/QUOTE]
There’s a problem right there. Stop thinking of them as ‘fancy’ and start thinking of them as well-bred by breeders who have invested time and money and labors of love into their dogs.
(And no I’m not talking about the backyard breeder version of love which is often ‘we love our dogs, they are part of the family!’)
But breeders who breed for the good of the breed and the future.
So instead of thinking of them as fancy think of them as well-bred from stewards of the breed who take breeding of the dogs as much a labor of love as stewardship.
Yes a well-bred dog can have things happen to them. But the chances of them being a healthy, sane, dog is so much better when you go with a reputable breeder.
My breed of choice?
I go to a reputable breeder who health tests their dogs and I can be sure I will get a dog that is clear of some genetic diseases common in the breed (PRA, EIC to just name one). Temperament in my breed can be iffy. Good breeders have been working to improve it over the past few decades but my chances of getting a dog with a genetically sound temperament are so much greater than if I go with a dog from a reputable breeder. (There’s resource guarding, same-sex aggression and some dog aggression in the breed).
My fiance and I can currently have a dog (she’s his dog and a different breed than my chosen breed) and she was a backyard bred/no care to lines or whatever bred dog and we’ve had several health and temperament issues with her that I can flat out tell you had we gone with a good breeder some if not most of those issues wouldn’t exist. She’s his baby. But more than once or twice he’s wondered if he should just put her down.
A good breeder is worth waiting for. I’m a year out from getting my dog of my chosen breed (military, moving, house hunting etc) but I’ve already started contacting breeders of the area I know I will be in once settled.
And yes I will admit that one of the reason I’m going with this breed of dog as opposed to others is because of the reception I’ve gotten from breeder and enthusiasts. There were a few other breeds I looked at but the breed politics turned me off.
A good breeder is a resource for the life of the dog.
And yes I would love to rescue but with my current dogs temperament issues and the fact that many of the dogs available in rescue have their own issues (plus we have cats) it’d be a much easier transition for every animal involved to get a puppy.
You have been given tons of great information here from some really good breeders. Please understand that they don’t just say things to say things and take some of what they say to heart because they do want what’s best for you and you possible future dog.
A friend of mine active in collie rescue adopted a 1 year old from a hoarding situation in Texas. The “breeder” and yes, she called herself a breeder is also an ophthalmologist (human). My friend just discovered her dog is going blind from genetic eye disease that is prevalent in collies (collie eye anomaly). The so called breeder never bothered to do eye checks on any of her breeding dogs.
This is a risk with a rescue dog, but it doesn’t make it any less devastating for my friend.
By patronizing a breeder who doesn’t know what they’re doing, doesn’t bother to do genetic checks, doesn’t bother to breed to try to eliminate conformation problems, the purchaser just perpetuates the problem. Don’t want to wait? Find a rescue, take a free dog off of craiglist. Just don’t pay for them. Please. You may save dogs from a life of health problems and pain.
[QUOTE=saultgirl;8029075]
I’m still working on it but if I drive by someone at the side of the road with a box that says “free puppies” I can’t be held responsible if one or two come home with me.[/QUOTE]
Gotta say…sometimes that is just how it happens!
Only on page 2 of this thread…most of the ideas offered are sound, I suppose, but I have to speak for “the other side”.
I’ve bought dogs from people who tested and people who didn’t. I’ve gone out looking for a pup of a certain breed/color/gender and both those times, I did not get to choose. Why? because in both cases only 1 pup was left! So that’s the one I took.
Oddly, both those dogs turned out to be some of the best I’ve ever owned in all ways (health, mind, personality, etc).
Continue to do your due diligence, but know that it will not be a guarantee of good OR bad. And maybe the Universe will just plop the Perfect Pup in front of you one day without you even asking.
BTW, when I was a kid we went to the National Dog Show in Washington D.C. (not sure they even have that anymore). Totally fell in love with a Newf. named “Charlie.” I wanted one for so long…
Then I grew up and my lifestyle never really accommodated this breed. But I’ve always had a soft spot for them.
Good luck! Oh, and I breed horses & dogs…and I think there tends to be more than alittle “crazy” in this segment of the population sometimes. Just keep digging.
[QUOTE=saultgirl;8033738]
Is it unusual for a breeder to not release puppies until they reach 16 weeks?
How easy/hard is to become an “AKC Breeder of Merit”?[/QUOTE]
Hope others addressed this: apparently it isn’t tough at all.
http://blog.humanesociety.org/wayne/2015/02/akc-champions-puppy-mills.html
And this is far from the first time this has happened.
I’m afraid I am also one of those people who have gotten dogs from folks who ran ads in the local paper (not sure what Kijii? is).
All 3 of these dogs were healthy, sound and pretty much problem free most of their lives. I never spent anywhere CLOSE to $300 per year for their health needs. More like $500 per lifetime if it was averaged out.
However that being said, in all cases the breed probably made the difference. One was a JRT from proven field lines, the other 2 were heelers (ACD). Again both parents were working ranch dogs…no testing, but their soundness was proven via work.
That might be difficult to do with a Newfie, but it IS possible to get healthy, sound dogs with good dispositions from (so-called) BYB.
Maybe you are going about this backwards? Why not join a Newfie club and when you see/hear about dogs you like, ask the folks where they got them.
But go check out ads for the “lesser” breeders. Then follow your gut. You might be taking more of a risk…but it certainly isn’t guaranteed the pup you get will be a sick mess. You probably WILL get a dog who is not perfect in terms of the breed standard, but if you just want a pet that shouldn’t matter too much.
[QUOTE=Houndhill;8038519]
I feel I have totally wasted my time and effort here.[/QUOTE]
Why? We give advice. Whether it is taken or not is not up to us.
I think being required to provide your entire pet-owning history, personal references, details of living arrangements, occupations, signing contracts to agree to specific food/training, etc. is ridiculous, especially when you are paying thousands of dollars. That is definitely jumping through hoops.
Can anyone imagine going to look at a horse for sale and being required to give all these things? If the horse’s seller insisted on several meetings with you, getting to know you over a long period of time, and then making it clear they expect to be part of the horse’s life forever? That you need to form a “life long relationship” with the dog’s breeder? We would probably all tell the seller to shove it. It’s strange that this is acceptable and expected in the dog world.
Unless… do you all shop for your horses at places like this, too?
The extensive interview is because the last thing any responsible breeder wants to go is make a mistake in placing a dog and have it end up in a bad place. What matters most is being certain that if for any reason the family cannot keep the dog it comes back to the breeder and doesn’t end up in a shelter.
Before I met him, my husband did make a mistake in puppy placement with his first litter. He sold a dog to someone who began physically abusing the dog (witnessed by credible sources). When the dog had had enough, and began biting, he sold the dog several states a way. We got the phone call after the dog bit new owner requiring 25 stitches. We took the dog back and buried him in our front yard as there was no saving him.
[QUOTE=PlanB;8039911]
I think being required to provide your entire pet-owning history, personal references, details of living arrangements, occupations, signing contracts to agree to specific food/training, etc. is ridiculous, especially when you are paying thousands of dollars. That is definitely jumping through hoops.
Can anyone imagine going to look at a horse for sale and being required to give all these things? If the horse’s seller insisted on several meetings with you, getting to know you over a long period of time, and then making it clear they expect to be part of the horse’s life forever? That you need to form a “life long relationship” with the dog’s breeder? We would probably all tell the seller to shove it. It’s strange that this is acceptable and expected in the dog world.
Unless… do you all shop for your horses at places like this, too?[/QUOTE]
Well, two things. First - many of these things would not be necessary if a person actually took the time to get to know the breeder. If you actually MEET them, face to face, they may not require references at all (I’m not sure that my own breeder requires references, but then again, she tends to try to place them with people she actually knows…or has gotten to know). Not all breeders want to dictate what food you feed, or how you live - they just want to know that you have enough income to properly feed and care for the puppy throughout it’s life.
As someone else said on this thread - the “search process” is as much an opportunity for the buyer to choose the seller. If you don’t want a breeder that is in your business for the next 12 years, find one that won’t be. It’s just unlikely that you’ll figure that out within a week, using the internet. It would be a lot easier and faster to have real conversations with real breeders, face to face.
Secondly, it’s just not worth comparing horse sales to puppy sales. It’s just different. If horses could produce 8 foals at once, I’d bet that horse owners would actually make placement decisions based on income, personalities, barn/farm amenities, and contracts. And, some probably do already, even for the one foal. Unfortunately too many horses are treated like used cars - maybe by their breeders as well as their owners. Too bad. I can’t wish for the same for dogs.
Most of the breeders I know are just regular people. Some produce some top show and field dogs, but most of them are looking for a home where the people will treat that dog as a pet, provide good vet care, and a safe home…not expect owners to jump through hoops. The others are looking to specialized homes to place dogs with super high end potential. Those buyers/breeders self-select each other so that’s a different thing.
Please explain how it would be easier/faster when the breeders are a minimum of 4.5 hours drive one way, with most being 7.5-11 hours drive away. One I’ve contacted is from across the country.
I’ve been having some good conversations on the phone with one breeder, but she has indicated (in an email yesterday) it would be nice if we could meet before she starts calling my references. I’m going to email her back to let her know I’m not willing to drive 5 hours one way just to meet her (unless I’m picking up a puppy at the same time) but I am going to suggest we sit down and have a skype conversation. If she’s not reasonable enough for that, I will cross her off my list.
10 hours of drive time just for a face-to-face meeting = asking me to jump through an unreasonable hoop. Or she’s welcome to drive here to meet me.
In case anyone missed it earlier, my current dog was adopted from the shelter as an adult dog w/ issues. He was extensively retrained by us and he’s a total dude now. However, that was a boat load of work and I’d rather start with a puppy this time. I am in no way opposed to rescuing a mutt from the pound, and if a mutt puppy (with similar breeding i.e. newf/berner/st. bernard/etc) shows up at the pound I’ll take it.
You’re looking at this from your perspective, only. It’s not a breeder’s fault you live 5-10+ hours away from them. They may not be willing to change their standards because of your location; especially if they have other puppy buyers that live closer and/or are willing to travel. Might not be what you want to hear, but it’s the truth.
It is easier/faster to have real conversations with people rather than email back and forth. In some cases it means traveling to meet breeders, and yes, I would expect most breeders would want to meet you in person.
I would not think 4-6 hours of driving is too far to consider meeting a breeder in person. The chances of very many breeders living within a 1-3 hour radius of your location isn’t great; the more unusual the breed, the less likely it is.
In your case, I would try my best to narrow down the breeders, but I would plan on meeting your top choice (and they may insist on it). Maybe it won’t be necessary, but I would plan on it rather than be disappointed.
For comparison – I drove 22 hours last year for a dog show (it was our nationals, but still…just ONE show. 10 minutes in the ring). I don’t think most breeders will consider it a major hardship to expect you to drive 5 hours to meet them.
I see it as unreasonable request and will not drive 5 hours one way just to meet someone for what, an hour for coffee? What a waste of gas. Not so bad if I’m travelling in Michigan where gas is practically free, but we pay about $5/gallon in Ontario.
I would see a breeder who is unwilling to accommodate with a skype interview/phone conversations/emails with pictures, as an unreasonable person with whom I’d rather not do business.
A few good phone conversations, some emails with pictures, and you should be able to get a pretty good feel for a person, their lifestyle, their current animals.
Your drive time for showing does not compare. If you had to drive that far to fill out your eligibility form for the show, then drive home, then drive back for the show a few weeks/months later, then it compares.
