You may be able to connect up with some breeders if they’re heading to a dog show near you.
I’ve lost track of the number of folks who have driven 3 plus hours to come meet me and the canine collection when I don’t even have puppies on the ground or anybody pregnant.
[QUOTE=saultgirl;8040157]
I would see a breeder who is unwilling to accommodate with a skype interview/phone conversations/emails with pictures, as an unreasonable person with whom I’d rather not do business.
Your drive time for showing does not compare. If you had to drive that far to fill out your eligibility form for the show, then drive home, then drive back for the show a few weeks/months later, then it compares.[/QUOTE]
Of course I would not drive 22 hours for a one hour meeting; but I would think nothing of driving 4-5 hours to meet a breeder. Personally I’d want to meet their bitch and assess her temperament, meet any other dogs they have bred that they own, see their whelping setup, etc. It’s just not that far in the scheme of purebred dogs. If you are lucky, you will find a good breeder closer to you, but I know a lot of people whose breeders are 5+ hours away and they consider them “close” because they are within driving distance of some common show locations. Marshfield is right - you may be able to meet up somewhere in between, and people do that a lot.
My breeder is flying from NY to Colorado next week to see a litter of puppies whelped from a bitch she owns. Another person who is interested in breeding to the same sire is flying out with her. Neither one of them are taking a puppy from this litter - they just want to see them in person.
The less common the breed, the more likely you’ll have to travel. Just supply and demand. You never know - my own breeder lived only 10 minutes away from me when we got our last puppy. She has no website, no internet presence at all - but if you know the breed, you would know her. So…there might be a great breeder closer to you than you know. Just takes some time to figure out who is who.
[QUOTE=S1969;8040349]
So…there might be a great breeder closer to you than you know. Just takes some time to figure out who is who.[/QUOTE]
Would these breeders not want to be included on the breeders lists for regional/national breed clubs?
I contacted one breeder not listed, but after hearing back from her and digging a little deeper this evening… I think she’s less “back yard breeder” and more “puppy mill”. Sounds like she has lots of dogs. Made me a bit uncomfortable. She said the current litter is spoken for but she has breedings planned for March/April, pending health clearances (on dogs who are just turning 2 this year - is that kind of early to breed?).
I got a bad feeling about this one; I don’t think I’ll be calling her back.
[QUOTE=saultgirl;8040469]
Would these breeders not want to be included on the breeders lists for regional/national breed clubs?[/QUOTE]
If they don’t breed many litters and their litters are spoken for without “advertising” via breeder list for regional/national breed clubs, why join unless there are other “perks” for a breeder…?
[QUOTE=saultgirl;8040469]
Would these breeders not want to be included on the breeders lists for regional/national breed clubs?
.[/QUOTE]
I pay a modest fee to be listed on my regional breed club’s website. But, in order to be a member of my regional club, I had to have x number of years of involvement with the breed and attend x number of meetings. It took me over two years from when I became interested in my regional club until I was an approved member. Just this year, I have enough years of membership in my regional club to be eligible for membership in my national club. A friend of mine breeds fabulous English Cocker Spaniels, there is no regional club for her to be a member of. I’ve linked to a blog below and it discusses how not visible some breed clubs are
http://rufflyspeaking.net/the-scandal-of-marketing-purebred-dogs-ii/
I would not wait years for a dog of any breed. If dogs of a certain breed were not available I would look for a different breed. And perhaps in very rare breeds it is either “responsible breeder” that requires unreasonable (to me) hoops or backyard breeder with train wrecks waiting to happen.
But the truth is it is not just one or the other. There are responsible breeders that breed quality dogs that don’t require buyers to “develop” a personal relationship and pass screening tests. My experience with working dogs, similar to another poster, is you can learn plenty about temperament and health watching the parents work. And in my case the dogs did have breed appropriate health tests. But they did not cost thousands of dollars and did not require I pass screening tests beyond some short phone or email correspondence and a meeting in person to see the puppies and taking home the the one I chose (among those available).
And I think what made these breeders ‘good’ breeders of quality dogs is that they do treat them like performance horses or well bred livestock. And they were farmers not hobby breeders. They breed for performance and to some extent take the emotion out of it.
I have over my lifetime had many dogs, not just herding dogs but large breeds with requisite health issues. Only one died young from what was probably a genetic disease. Otherwise, except for one hit by a car back in the day when dogs ran at will, all lived to the higher end of typical for the breed. The one that had the genetic defect came from a “reputable” breeder and it was not their fault nor could testing have predicted it.
I only have so many dog lifespans left. Should the time come I want or need another dog I am certainly not going to wait months or years without a dog in my life, nor at my age have the patience to prove myself as a responsible pet owner, when the truth is good, healthy dogs can be had for less money and hassle.
I think that the elitist breeders are in such a strange tangent.
In my Great Pyrenees and German Shepherd I paid a combined amount of $900, and think I overpaid for the GP. But they are excellent dogs, healthy and do what we expected of them b/c of the breed, and no health issues.
Why in the world would I 1) want to over pay for some show dog lines that a breeder has hyped up all out of proportion or 2) try to pass some clearance with a breeder if I didn’t want all that their dog entails? And no, I don’t want a shelter mutt as a pet as some sort of “well, you don’t matter” because I won’t pay to play, I want a German Shepherd.
I really think there is a place for the thoughtful backyard breeder. Not even all the genetic testing or hip testing is a guarantee.
[QUOTE=saultgirl;8040469]
Would these breeders not want to be included on the breeders lists for regional/national breed clubs?
I contacted one breeder not listed, but after hearing back from her and digging a little deeper this evening… I think she’s less “back yard breeder” and more “puppy mill”. Sounds like she has lots of dogs. Made me a bit uncomfortable. She said the current litter is spoken for but she has breedings planned for March/April, pending health clearances (on dogs who are just turning 2 this year - is that kind of early to breed?).
I got a bad feeling about this one; I don’t think I’ll be calling her back.[/QUOTE]
The internet is a relatively new thing, when you compare it to breeders that have been doing this for 30-40 years. The only place my club lists breeders is in our magazine, but the only people who get the magazine are club members. 
So, word of mouth was once really the best way to place puppies, and it still works, especially when a breeder doesn’t breed often.
As for age for health clearances - 2 is the age at which hips can be done; and probably for most breeds is old enough to perform most health testing. It’s a tricky thing - my now spayed bitch had trouble in her last litter and needed a C-section. The vet declared her “aged” at 6…and said it wasn’t that surprising. (FWIW, she had only two litters, one at 4 and one at 6.)
So…sometime between 2 and 6 you need to breed the females or it might be too late. Therefore, I would not consider 2 to be too soon to breed, especially in a large breed - but I would want to know about health clearances appropriate for the breed. Other things might point to them as being a puppy mill, but not that, specifically.
[QUOTE=cowboymom;8040704]
Why in the world would I 1) want to over pay for some show dog lines that a breeder has hyped up all out of proportion or 2) try to pass some clearance with a breeder if I didn’t want all that their dog entails? And no, I don’t want a shelter mutt as a pet as some sort of “well, you don’t matter” because I won’t pay to play, I want a German Shepherd.
I really think there is a place for the thoughtful backyard breeder. Not even all the genetic testing or hip testing is a guarantee.[/QUOTE]
I don’t disagree that there is a place for the thoughtful backyard breeder; but I don’t think that it goes together with lack of health testing. The most expensive part of many breeding programs is the titling of the parents - not the health testing. If you don’t want a show champion, that’s fine. If demonstration of work and temperament are enough to prove the working abilities of a puppy - also fine. But skipping the health testing is stupid, and affects generations of dogs - not just YOUR puppy. How many of the non-tested dogs might be bred, and how many of their offspring might be bred?
It’s not a “guarantee” but it’s improving many breeds to eliminate dogs carrying identifiable congenital defects from the breeding population. I personally think it’s inexcusable to breed a dog without specific health testing.
New question:
How important is it to get a dog who has seen a specialized cardiologist vs a dog that has only seen the regular vet to have it’s heart checked?
I spoke with a great lady last evening and that’s one thing many other breeders have included that she does not. Pups are otherwise registered/microchipped/vet checked/etc, plus the parents have their hips/elbows/hearts/cystinuria certified.
[QUOTE=S1969;8040921]
I don’t disagree that there is a place for the thoughtful backyard breeder; but I don’t think that it goes together with lack of health testing. The most expensive part of many breeding programs is the titling of the parents - not the health testing. If you don’t want a show champion, that’s fine. If demonstration of work and temperament are enough to prove the working abilities of a puppy - also fine. But skipping the health testing is stupid, and affects generations of dogs - not just YOUR puppy. How many of the non-tested dogs might be bred, and how many of their offspring might be bred?
It’s not a “guarantee” but it’s improving many breeds to eliminate dogs carrying identifiable congenital defects from the breeding population. I personally think it’s inexcusable to breed a dog without specific health testing.[/QUOTE]
I just want to say thank you, again – I honestly do appreciate your input, even if I am getting frustrated with some of the demands of the breeders. And even if we disagree on reasonable/unreasonable demands.
The breeder I spoke with last night (and we chatted a full hour) said she mostly just likes to have a good conversation or two on the phone and she makes a judgement call based on the conversations. Which is good because she’s probably about a 10 hour drive away.
[QUOTE=saultgirl;8040930]
New question:
How important is it to get a dog who has seen a specialized cardiologist vs a dog that has only seen the regular vet to have it’s heart checked?
I spoke with a great lady last evening and that’s one thing many other breeders have included that she does not. Pups are otherwise registered/microchipped/vet checked/etc, plus the parents have their hips/elbows/hearts/cystinuria certified.[/QUOTE]
For the breed you’re looking into, exam by cardiologist for the parents is very important. If you’re meaning the puppy before it goes home, not such a big deal. Access to such a specialist may be limited in her area.
[QUOTE=Marshfield;8040959]
For the breed you’re looking into, exam by cardiologist for the parents is very important. If you’re meaning the puppy before it goes home, not such a big deal. Access to such a specialist may be limited in her area.[/QUOTE]
Yes, I was referring to the puppies before they come home.
[QUOTE=Where’sMyWhite;8040534]
If they don’t breed many litters and their litters are spoken for without “advertising” via breeder list for regional/national breed clubs, why join unless there are other “perks” for a breeder…?[/QUOTE]
I thought this was a good question so I looked into it, and although it doesn’t answer whether or not they want to be listed as a breeder on a club website list, in Canada, members of the Canadian Kennel Club get 50% reduction in registration fees for puppies.
I’ve only bred one litter of puppies, but I can assure you, those 6 puppies represented a tremendous amount of time, money and effort. Hopefully this will give you an idea as to why breeders can seem stupid about placing their puppies.
I jumped through quite a few hoops to obtain their mother - a show quality bitch. Then invested almost two years in finishing her championship. Then jumped thru even more hoops to get her bred. First breeding to AM/CAN Grand Champion via AI came up empty. Tried again 6 months later to a 2 time National Specialty winner. Drove 7 hours to get to the stud dog.
Her puppies were delivered via C-Section. First two weeks, my husband and I took turns with 24/7 supervision of the litter. Each puppy was weighed, measured & results recorded every day for the first 4 weeks. After 4 weeks, they were weighed, measured & wormed weekly, along with stacked pictures of every angle for each puppy. Then visits to my vet for their vaccinations, as well as samples collected and sent for genetic testing. Hours and hours and hours were spent handling, observing, documenting and interacting with these puppies.
And yes, per my contract with the stud dog owner, I was required to keep all the puppies until they were 16 weeks old so she could make 2nd pick selection from the litter. All my puppy buyers signed contracts that specified my responsibilities, such as health guarantees, and their responsibilities - mainly to provide appropriate home and notify me if they ever need re-home for any reason.
Only one puppy went to a first-timer to the breed. They had been waiting for over a year, had reached out to several breeders in our community, and were well-educated on the requirements of the breed. They drove over 22 hours (from Maine to Kentucky) to pick up their puppy from me.
So again, I hope this gives you some perspective from the breeder’s side. It is gut-wrenching to let those puppies go, but also wonderfully rewarding to see them do well in their new homes. I think, ultimately, that is what most good breeders sincerely want for their puppies.
Frankly, I’d never buy a puppy from one of the conformation-show-breeder types that are often touted as being the most “responsible” of the breeders. My experience is these people produce unhealthy dogs far more often than your average backyard breeder. They select their breeding stock for all of the wrong reasons- looks trump all other criteria, and due to the way conformation showing works, they select for exaggerated looks and tend to ignore the temperament of the dogs. You’re very likely to end up with unhealthy minds in unhealthy bodies.
Plus I too find the idea of having to “Form a relationship” with someone you just want to buy a dog from to be kind of peculiar. The working-dog people I’ve bought dogs from have no interest in that. They act a lot more like horse breeders, which is how animal breeders should act IMHO.
Your best bet is to buy from a real working-dog breeder, someone who actually works their dogs and selects them for real reasons- good temperament and health are highly valued by working dog owners. With some breeds that may not be possible, of course, in which case finding a backyard breeder who does basic health checks might be your best option. There’s no reason why a person who breeds one or two litters in a lifetime can’t do health checks and produce healthy puppies. At least a backyard breeder who treats their bitch as a pet can assure you the mother has a temperament that is suitable for a pet, which is oh so often not the case for show-ring breeders.
When you’re looking for a breeder, think about what criteria YOU value in a dog, and look for a breeder who breeds for those criteria. If you don’t value being able to prance around in a conformation ring- which most dog owners don’t- don’t look for a breeder who breeds for that.
ask yourself WHY in practically all breeds the real dogs- the working and hunting and even the pet dogs- would be laughed out of the conformation show ring, and the ones that win in the show ring can’t perform any of the expected functions of their breed, including acting as good pets.
Just curious – were there puppies you placed in homes that you didn’t pretty much have your mind made up about after the first 45 minutes talking to the person?
Were there people who you spoke with for extended period on the phone that you turned down upon meeting them in person?
[QUOTE=wendy;8041055]
My experience is these people produce unhealthy dogs far more often than your average backyard breeder.[/QUOTE]
Just curious what your experience is. I know you’ve exclaimed before that you disagree in principle with dog shows…I’m curious how many actual “show breeders” you have ever met and/or evaluated their breeding program.
Obviously there are all kinds of breeders, but I know of quite a number of breeders that consider temperament as one of the MOST important criteria.
And, what exactly is a “back yard breeder”??? I know what a puppy mill is (or at least mine definition). But I really don’t know what a BYB is…
The litter I am waiting for a pup from could be considered, I guess, BYB. The pups and their mother live in the home and are very socialized. Is a BYB one where the dogs live outside in a kennel? I really don’t know.
If I am getting a dog for performance work, I will check to see what level of performance and what types the parents, etc have. I don’t have a “thing” about conformation breeders but I want a dog that can do all, not just have a Ch or GCh in front of their name, but what performance credentials do the parents have?
[QUOTE=PlanB;8041062]
Just curious – were there puppies you placed in homes that you didn’t pretty much have your mind made up about after the first 45 minutes talking to the person?
Were there people who you spoke with for extended period on the phone that you turned down upon meeting them in person?[/QUOTE]
The majority of my potential puppy buyers were current or previous owners, breeders or competitors of the breed - so there was already a lot of pre-screening, so to speak. It is quite difficult to get this breed, because the community is very protective.
The ones I spent the most time with were the first-timers. We spoke on the phone and exchanged emailed for several weeks until the puppies were ready to go. They had previously met with a breed owner who lived relatively close by (about 4 hours away!), just to meet their dogs and familiarize themselves with the breed. I got in touch with everyone who had interacted with them.
So, I didn’t have any ironclad requirements. The best resource I found was Facebook. You can learn a lot by creeping on a FB page.
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