We've decided to get a puppy - breeder recommendations?

[PlanB]

[QUOTE=Where’sMyWhite;8041139]
And, what exactly is a “back yard breeder”??? I know what a puppy mill is (or at least mine definition). But I really don’t know what a BYB is…

The litter I am waiting for a pup from could be considered, I guess, BYB. The pups and their mother live in the home and are very socialized. Is a BYB one where the dogs live outside in a kennel? I really don’t know.

If I am getting a dog for performance work, I will check to see what level of performance and what types the parents, etc have. I don’t have a “thing” about conformation breeders but I want a dog that can do all, not just have a Ch or GCh in front of their name, but what performance credentials do the parents have?[/QUOTE]

Not sure what breed you’re dealing wtih, but this link is in regards to the OP breed:

http://newf-friends.blogspot.ca/p/identifying-byb.html

[LauraKY]

To me, a backyard breeder is more of a philosophy than a location. Is the breeder in it to make money? A properly bred, health checked, socialized and cared for puppy is probably not going to make the breeder much money, if any.

[wendy]

Obviously there are all kinds of breeders, but I know of quite a number of breeders that consider temperament as one of the MOST important criteria.

I’ve met working-dog and sport-dog breeders that valued temperament. Not show-ring breeders. The biggest problem I’ve seen there is over-looking dog aggression. Dog aggression is highly inheritable, and owning a dog-aggressive dog can be a very miserable experience for a pet owner. Especially if you get a dog from a breed that is supposed to be friendly, and it turns out the breeder ignored the sire’s propensity to attack other dogs because of the way the sire looked.

Think like a horse owner when you shop for dogs- if you want a horse to work cows, you don’t buy a horse from a halter-show breeder. If you want a horse to pack your 12 year old around you don’t buy a ditzy arab bred to act crazy in the halter ring.
YET that is exactly what the show-ring breeders are pushing on dog owners- dog owners don’t have any need or desire for the attributes bred into conformation dogs, yet they are told that is what they should look for. It’s silly from a genetic perspective and even sillier from a horse-owner perspective.

[Mao]

[QUOTE=PlanB;8041159]
Not sure what breed you’re dealing wtih, but this link is in regards to the OP breed:

http://newf-friends.blogspot.ca/p/identifying-byb.html[/QUOTE]

PlanB - that is an excellent article - thanks for posting. I think it can be applied to all breeds, not just Newfoundlands.

[neversaynever]

[QUOTE=saultgirl;8040930]
New question:

How important is it to get a dog who has seen a specialized cardiologist vs a dog that has only seen the regular vet to have it’s heart checked?

I spoke with a great lady last evening and that’s one thing many other breeders have included that she does not. Pups are otherwise registered/microchipped/vet checked/etc, plus the parents have their hips/elbows/hearts/cystinuria certified.[/QUOTE]

SAS is one of the big health problems in Newfs. I would want the breeder to have at least a preliminary check for murmurs by the vet. Sometimes a younger puppy will have a murmur, but it can “resolve” and not be an issue, although it would be suspect. The age for a heart certification is 16 weeks. That is why they may not release their puppies to their new owners until that time (both of the breeders we got our newfs from did this). The certification is done by a cardiology specialist and likely will involve an echocardiogram. If the breeder does not have it done to the puppies at 16 wks, I would at least want it in the contract that a dog shown to have SAS should be covered under the health guarantee. It would be up to you to have it done.

Here is some info on it. http://www.ncanewfs.org/health/genetichealthcardiac.html#.VPh07YE8KrU

[EKLay]

[QUOTE=wendy;8041180]
I’ve met working-dog and sport-dog breeders that valued temperament. Not show-ring breeders. The biggest problem I’ve seen there is over-looking dog aggression. [I snipped some here]

YET that is exactly what the show-ring breeders are pushing on dog owners- dog owners don’t have any need or desire for the attributes bred into conformation dogs, yet they are told that is what they should look for. It’s silly from a genetic perspective and even sillier from a horse-owner perspective. [/QUOTE]

See, I wonder if you’ve perhaps met some crazy people? I’ve met all three kinds of breeders, and all of the nice, responsible ones put temperament first. There are strange people in every bunch, but I wouldn’t ever use the crazy people as a good measure of the whole bunch.

This could be partly a breed thing too, but at least in Ibizans, most people dual title, so you have a conformation titled working dog. Drive and hunting ability are huge - no one wants a pretty dog that can’t work. I would be curious to what types of attributes you’ve seen bred into conformation dogs that owners don’t need or want?

I want good hips, elbows, eyes, no propensity for seizures, not predisposed to developing allergies, a personable but not overly friendly temperament, bold attitude, ability to think and problem solve, high energy, and high drive. Picking a breed, rather than an unknown mix allowed me to be very confident that I’d get what I was looking for, and being choosy when I picked a breeder gave me the final assurance I’d get what I wanted. I don’t care that she titles her dogs in conformation, but it was one more piece of evidence in her favor that she really cares about the breed, loves her dogs, and is committed, not someone out to make a quick buck. Conformation titles on dogs wouldn’t ever be a deciding factor for me, but it can be one of those nice little extras.

I do feel like some kind of wait for a puppy has to be a good thing though? If the supply is less than the demand, that should theoretically mean the dogs are all wanted, and there would be less issue with “bad” homes, and less of a dog surplus.

It is hard to compare horse ownership to dog ownership though, and hard to say that horse sales are “the” way to do it and that dog sales should work the same way. Dogs are cheaper to own, more accessible, and live shorter lives. I feel like most people who sell a dog/puppy expect the buyer to be that dog’s “forever home”, whereas that’s not the case with horses. I think this is probably a big part of why some dog breeders can be so picky. I would personally prefer that to the methods used by one of our neighbors, who will sell puppies to anyone with the money for it, doesn’t do any sort of testing, and breeds his bitch on every heat.

I totally agree that some people are just nuts, and those people I dodn’t talk to when looking for a dog.

[cbv]

[QUOTE=EKLay;8041490]
See, I wonder if you’ve perhaps met some crazy people? I’ve met all three kinds of breeders, and all of the nice, responsible ones put temperament first. There are strange people in every bunch, but I wouldn’t ever use the crazy people as a good measure of the whole bunch.

I want good hips, elbows, eyes, no propensity for seizures, not predisposed to developing allergies, a personable but not overly friendly temperament, bold attitude, ability to think and problem solve, high energy, and high drive. Picking a breed, rather than an unknown mix allowed me to be very confident that I’d get what I was looking for, and being choosy when I picked a breeder gave me the final assurance I’d get what I wanted…cares about the breed, loves her dogs, and is committed, not someone out to make a quick buck.

I do feel like some kind of wait for a puppy has to be a good thing though? If the supply is less than the demand, that should theoretically mean the dogs are all wanted, and there would be less issue with “bad” homes, and less of a dog surplus.

It is hard to compare horse ownership to dog ownership though…dogs are cheaper to own, more accessible, and live shorter lives. I feel like most people who sell a dog/puppy expect the buyer to be that dog’s “forever home”, whereas that’s not the case with horses…I would personally prefer that to the methods used by one of our neighbors, who will sell puppies to anyone with the money for it, doesn’t do any sort of testing, and breeds his bitch on every heat.

I totally agree that some people are just nuts, and those people I dodn’t talk to when looking for a dog. :)[/QUOTE]

I agree that using the extremes is not useful but would say when you compare what you went through to get your puppy, and your neighbor, you are describing the two extremes. And there is an awful lot of space in between for breeders to breed healthy dogs with good temperaments and buyers to find good, healthy, wonderful pets that meet their criteria and expectations. And plenty of room for heartbreak no matter how careful the consideration and screening.

My herding dogs meet many of your criteria…although completely opposite to sight hounds in so many ways…I know because I have had two Borzoi’s in the family. We were referred to the breeder by veterinarian friends active in coursing and agility, and told she was a well known and respected breeder (no internet back then). No hoops and no waiting for puppies. Both lived a healthy 13 years, which is respectable for that breed.

In fact, when researching sight hounds I was most intrigued with Ibizan hounds, which I expect were even more rare in the US back then. It is one of the breeds I have daydreamed about. Will probably do some more now that you have brought it up. Would still be interested, but not if I had to go through what you did.

Actually my interest in sight hounds and love of herding dogs has also had me research lurchers now and again. Fortunately for me I have no great breed loyalty – I have a whole list of them I am fascinated by – so lots of choices

[saultgirl]

@cbv;8041718

I agree that using the extremes is not useful but would say when you compare what you went through to get your puppy, and your neighbor, you are describing the two extremes. And there is an awful lot of space in between for breeders to breed healthy dogs with good temperaments and buyers to find good, healthy, wonderful pets that meet their criteria and expectations. And plenty of room for heartbreak no matter how careful the consideration and screening.

Yes yes yes!

An onto my next question:

I’m being told the bitch didn’t get her clearance on her elbows because “one elbow” had “something minor” which “could be from an injury or something”. Followed by discussion about how you have to look at the whole dog and the parents’ elbow clearances - not necessarily rule out the dog.

Same discussion dealing w/ another breeder who’s bitch didn’t get the clearance on hips. I had previous crossed off this breeder anyways, but now this “not clear but it’s still ok” is coming up again with someone else. Thoughts?

How does this compare to vetting a horse and seeing iffy x-rays?

[Mao]

I can’t speak specifically to elbow and hip clearances, since that isn’t a issue in my breed. But the fact is the majority of purebreds have their own set of genetic issues because of closed gene pools and, in my case, low population.

The three big ones in my breed are DCM, Osteosarcoma and bloat. It is impossible to find any bloodline completely clear of all three. Therefore, when selecting a breeding pair, to only approach is avoid doubling up on any of the three. The alternative is to letting the breed go extinct. And therein is the horns of the dilemma.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=wendy;8041180]
I’ve met working-dog and sport-dog breeders that valued temperament. Not show-ring breeders. [/QUOTE]

Most “show dogs” I know are someone’s pet. So I disagree that “show-ring breeders don’t value temperament.” Maybe they don’t all value it as much as they should, maybe some don’t value it at all…but most of the breeders I know value it a lot. Of course, my breed is also a breed that values dual titles (or multiple titles), and in hunting breeds temperament is critical.

So perhaps there are some breeds where temperament is less important. But I think it’s a pretty huge brush stroke to say “show ring breeders don’t value temperament.”

Since you don’t show dogs, I’m curious how many “show ring breeders” you really know, and on what you’re basing your information.

[Houndhill]

I just wanted to express my appreciation to those responsible breeders in this forum for your participation. It can be difficult to try to educate those who may have a different frame of reference, and I so appreciate your patience and perseverance.

I just want to reiterate, many of us who breed dogs have a difference experience than some, as far as breeding for temperament, including lack of aggression to other dogs, as well as health and conformation.

Some of us have dedicated ourselves over the years to a particular breed, because we love that breed, “for the pleasure of their company”, in the words of a breeder of many years ago. That includes how we live with those dogs on a day to day basis, how they live together harmoniously in a group in our homes, how they make good decisions about how to interact with other dogs and humans not in our households.

Many of us have bred many champions (and National Specialty winners), yet understand that so many of the puppies we so carefully breed will end up holding down a couch for someone. If they were dog- aggressive, or had other temperament issues, it would be of great concern to us, let alone those that we keep or that go to other breeders who still keep hounds in groups. I have many times have six or more intact males, some of whom have been used at stud, together, and who have welcomed other intact males with similar experience into our home. What more could one ask of any dog?

To be accused of not considering temperament and character in breeding decisions is extremely insulting to me, to the other responsible breeders on this list, and to breeders in general.

Most of the breeders I know (not all!) do indeed consider temperament of paramount importance, and health and functionality equally important. Do we also breed champions and hounds who win in the show ring, yes, but this in no way negates our primary purpose - to preserve or even improve the breed that we love.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=saultgirl;8041800]
I’m being told the bitch didn’t get her clearance on her elbows because “one elbow” had “something minor” which “could be from an injury or something”. Followed by discussion about how you have to look at the whole dog and the parents’ elbow clearances - not necessarily rule out the dog.[/QUOTE]

The issue would be WHY the elbow didn’t clear, and whether the breeder made a good choice to breed it anyway. For any particular dog, a mild inheritable condition isn’t a death sentence, and in some cases is truly benign - except for breeding. So…it’s not so much like a PPE in horses where you will necessarily face the impact of the anomaly. But…if the breeder chose to ignore what might have been a sign of inherited defect…I would have a problem with that. Because what else might they have ignored/overlooked, or undervalued?

I’m not sure if OFA gives a specific reason for a “fail” or not; but a vet might be able to tell you more about the xray.

It’s true that you have to look at “the whole dog” but usually when a dog fails a health clearance it is not bred. So unless you know for sure that it IS an injury, I would question that.

[saultgirl]

[QUOTE=S1969;8041883]
The issue would be WHY the elbow didn’t clear, and whether the breeder made a good choice to breed it anyway. For any particular dog, a mild inheritable condition isn’t a death sentence, and in some cases is truly benign - except for breeding. So…it’s not so much like a PPE in horses where you will necessarily face the impact of the anomaly. But…if the breeder chose to ignore what might have been a sign of inherited defect…I would have a problem with that. Because what else might they have ignored/overlooked, or undervalued?

I’m not sure if OFA gives a specific reason for a “fail” or not; but a vet might be able to tell you more about the xray.

It’s true that you have to look at “the whole dog” but usually when a dog fails a health clearance it is not bred. So unless you know for sure that it IS an injury, I would question that.[/QUOTE]

I’m wondering whether to press for further details about the elbow or just skip this breeder all together. It wasn’t mentioned at all at the first conversation… I was told “the parents have their health clearances and the puppies come with a health guarantee, the guarantee works like this …” and then I went to confirm on OFFA and there’s no clearance for elbows.

[Houndhill]

The other point I wanted to address is that those who breed dogs who are capable of winning conformation titles are “extreme” and “could never possibly do the jobs they were intended for”.

Certainly not true in my breed, Irish Wolfhounds, bred to take down wolves and large prey. No wolves around here (though I am confident mine would be up to the task) but my National Specialty winner took down a deer. I would challenge you to find a stronger, faster, better predator (who is also trustworthy with other dogs and people)… I know several IW breeders who live in coyote country, whose wolfhounds have killed multiple coyote (I am sure they would kill wolves if given an opportunity). These are show dogs, champions etc., also steady and reliable with small children, dogs, etc.

I have several framed posters, of iWs from the 1800s. That is what I try to keep in mind when breeding and judging.

[Marshfield]

[QUOTE=saultgirl;8041800]
Yes yes yes!

An onto my next question:

I’m being told the bitch didn’t get her clearance on her elbows because “one elbow” had “something minor” which “could be from an injury or something”. Followed by discussion about how you have to look at the whole dog and the parents’ elbow clearances - not necessarily rule out the dog.

Same discussion dealing w/ another breeder who’s bitch didn’t get the clearance on hips. I had previous crossed off this breeder anyways, but now this “not clear but it’s still ok” is coming up again with someone else. Thoughts?

How does this compare to vetting a horse and seeing iffy x-rays?[/QUOTE]

These would be red flags to me. Checking http://www.caninehealthinfo.org/brdreqs.html?breed=NF verifies that both hip and elbow screenings are important for the breed. In some ways, congenital elbow disease is harder to treat than congenital hip disease

[Houndhill]

With Newfs, I would try to go for one whose parents had good elbows with no sign of trouble.

It is always possible to have an injury, but at the age when the bitch was X-rayed, and the heaviness in the front of the breed, I would really want really good elbows.

[EKLay]

[QUOTE=cbv;8041718]
I agree that using the extremes is not useful but would say when you compare what you went through to get your puppy, and your neighbor, you are describing the two extremes. [/QUOTE]

Your post made me smile. I didn’t consider what I did to get my puppy extreme, so maybe I am one of those crazy people and didn’t even realize it! lol

[neversaynever]

Agree with others on the elbows and hips. Check the OFA scoring also - OFA Fair is different then OFA Excellent. Parent OFA score does not guarantee your puppy will be ok, but it certainly ups the odds. Most hips and elbows certifications are done at 2 yrs old. Most health guarantees I have seen only cover 1 yr. I would get clarification on what happens if the dog can not get at least OFA Fair certification if the health guarantee is only up to 1 yr. You can get a preliminary screening at an earlier age, but that also does not mean they will pass at 2 yrs old, especially if they scored lower on the preliminary screening. By that time, they are definitely a member of the family…

[saultgirl]

[QUOTE=neversaynever;8042056]
Agree with others on the elbows and hips. Check the OFA scoring also - OFA Fair is different then OFA Excellent. Parent OFA score does not guarantee your puppy will be ok, but it certainly ups the odds. Most hips and elbows certifications are done at 2 yrs old. Most health guarantees I have seen only cover 1 yr. I would get clarification on what happens if the dog can not get at least OFA Fair certification if the health guarantee is only up to 1 yr. You can get a preliminary screening at an earlier age, but that also does not mean they will pass at 2 yrs old, especially if they scored lower on the preliminary screening.[/QUOTE]

I won’t be breeding, so it won’t really matter if my dog passes clearances, and so far guarantees only mention “if the dog is crippled”. Of course, I haven’t seen anything in writing from any breeders yet – I’m afraid to ask after I apparently offended the first breeder from whom I requested a copy of the contract to review.

How do I pick a breeder if I don’t know what dogs they are going to be breeding the next time, or the time after? Then I have to start looking at the history of the dogs and make a decision about clearances, etc.

[Mao]

[QUOTE=EKLay;8041971]
Your post made me smile. I didn’t consider what I did to get my puppy extreme, so maybe I am one of those crazy people and didn’t even realize it! lol[/QUOTE]

EKLay - I didn’t think your experience was extreme either! I guess you can count me in as one of the crazies - lol!

On the other hand, that is generally what it takes to get a rare breed like Ibizan or, in my case, Scottish Deerhounds. There really isn’t an alternative puppy mill market or backyard breeders spitting them out. I think it’s easier to get a Newf.