We've decided to get a puppy - breeder recommendations?

[QUOTE=saultgirl;8042073]
I won’t be breeding, so it won’t really matter if my dog passes clearances, and so far guarantees only mention “if the dog is crippled”. Of course, I haven’t seen anything in writing from any breeders yet – I’m afraid to ask after I apparently offended the first breeder from whom I requested a copy of the contract to review.

How do I pick a breeder if I don’t know what dogs they are going to be breeding the next time, or the time after? Then I have to start looking at the history of the dogs and make a decision about clearances, etc.[/QUOTE]

It may not matter if your dog passes OFA but it should matter if its parents do. True, as many have said, just because the parents do is no guarantee the pup will but it is a start.

What are you prepared to do and how will you feel when your pup grows up and has a major problem with hips or elbows or heart? You prepared to give it up? You prepared to pay for the medical expenses for care? Just asking.

As for worrying about what the breeders will be breeding next… if you like the breeder and trust their program based on past breeding decisions, then trust the breeder for future breeding decisions…

[QUOTE=saultgirl;8042073]
I won’t be breeding, so it won’t really matter if my dog passes clearances, and so far guarantees only mention “if the dog is crippled”. Of course, I haven’t seen anything in writing from any breeders yet – I’m afraid to ask after I apparently offended the first breeder from whom I requested a copy of the contract to review.

How do I pick a breeder if I don’t know what dogs they are going to be breeding the next time, or the time after? Then I have to start looking at the history of the dogs and make a decision about clearances, etc.[/QUOTE]

If your dog does not clear, she will most likely eventually be “crippled”. One of mine ended up with hip dysplasia (one parent OFA good, the other OFA fair). The other had elbow dyplasia (both parents were certified). Both were diagnosed after 1 yr. We were showing them working toward some WD and obedience titles. We stopped at that point, had the bitch spayed, the dog neutered (did not have them both at the same time). Told the breeders, so they knew it occurred in a puppy from that particular litter (don’t know if they even cared, to tell you the truth). It was very disappointing. It is a degenerative problem and gets worse with time (think ringbone in horses). Surgery is very expensive and not always perfect.

The only thing I can suggest is to talk to them about their breeding philosophy. If they would ever breed a dog with less then passing OFA scores, I would want to know why and probably check them off my list, but this is just my own opinion based upon my past experiences. This is a giant breed, and the strain on hips and elbows is much greater on them then it is in a lighter breed like goldens or retrievers. Personally, I would also look at those breeders that are into working/performance vs confirmation only.

Why no mention of the PennHip? OFA is all over the map and subjective, I would want a PennHip done if I were going off of testing.

Also, say a Newfie puppy fell in your lap with no history known, or you chose a pup from tested dogs but still ended up with a pup with issues (which can happen) you can get the pup evaluated for laxity and if it’s indicated, there are corrections that can be made when the pup is still young to stabilize the joints. This link explains those:

http://www.dogheirs.com/dogheirs/posts/2162-canine-hip-dysplasia-symptoms-diagnosis-treatment-and-prevention

When I got my GP I was able to see both parents and his mother was an older dog and still sound, still moved very well, as did his father. I had seen a lot of pups in the clinic that you could tell were going to have issues and so was able to eyeball him. I took a chance but honestly I think going off of just any OFA score is a bit of a chance too. I think being able to speak to owners of past pups from the same cross can be an extremely effective measure. I did that with the GSD and the GP.

Why no mention of the PennHip? OFA is all over the map and subjective, I would want a PennHip done if I were going off of testing.

Also, say a Newfie puppy fell in your lap with no history known, or you chose a pup from tested dogs but still ended up with a pup with issues (which can happen), or you just want to know for sure, you can get the pup evaluated for laxity and if it’s indicated, there are corrections that can be made when the pup is still young to stabilize the joints. This link explains those:

http://www.dogheirs.com/dogheirs/posts/2162-canine-hip-dysplasia-symptoms-diagnosis-treatment-and-prevention

When I got my GP I was able to see both parents and his mother was an older dog and still sound, still moved very well, as did his father. I had seen a lot of pups in the clinic that you could tell were going to have issues and so was able to eyeball him. I took a chance but honestly I think going off of just any OFA score is a bit of a chance too. I think being able to speak to owners of past pups from the same cross can be an extremely effective measure. I did that with the GSD and the GP.

[QUOTE=cowboymom;8042231]
Why no mention of the PennHip? OFA is all over the map and subjective, I would want a PennHip done if I were going off of testing.

Also, say a Newfie puppy fell in your lap with no history known, or you chose a pup from tested dogs but still ended up with a pup with issues (which can happen), or you just want to know for sure, you can get the pup evaluated for laxity and if it’s indicated, there are corrections that can be made when the pup is still young to stabilize the joints. This link explains those:

http://www.dogheirs.com/dogheirs/posts/2162-canine-hip-dysplasia-symptoms-diagnosis-treatment-and-prevention

When I got my GP I was able to see both parents and his mother was an older dog and still sound, still moved very well, as did his father. I had seen a lot of pups in the clinic that you could tell were going to have issues and so was able to eyeball him. I took a chance but honestly I think going off of just any OFA score is a bit of a chance too. I think being able to speak to owners of past pups from the same cross can be an extremely effective measure. I did that with the GSD and the GP.[/QUOTE]

Because PennHip only applies to hips. We’re talking elbows.

A few posts ago, on page 8, all testing was being discussed.

Pardon me, I should have said “why is PennHip not being included in the discussion when you aren’t talking specifically about elbows?”

Clearly I am so stupid that the HIP in PennHIP escaped my notice. thanks there.

[QUOTE=EKLay;8041971]
Your post made me smile. :slight_smile: I didn’t consider what I did to get my puppy extreme, so maybe I am one of those crazy people and didn’t even realize it! lol[/QUOTE]

I was in no way implying you were crazy,and am sorry if you read it that way, although glad it made you smile.

I am just looking at this as a scientist. If you took a poll in the US, like most populations, dog owners would likely fit a mostly normal curve (in the scientific definition – not behavioral :).

I believe that completely irresponsible breeders like you describe your neighbor would fit on one end of that curve, and folk that pay in excess of a thousand dollars, go through extensive screening to be approved to purchase a puppy, and are willing to wait for up to a year for a pup, would be at the other end.

As I said that leaves a lot of options in the middle. And a lot of satisfied folks who love their dogs.

Now if you took that poll in city vs rural vs suburban, or stratified by income or part of the country, the curve might skew in one direction or the other. But still think the two examples are extremes under most scenarios.

As I think I said in my first post, if your model works for some that is great. It just doesn’t work for everyone and I am not of the opinion, that was expressed by at least one poster and perhaps implied by others, that unless you go through the process similar to the one you described folks will be back on here describing their broken hearts. Or that the only responsible breeders are those that require a process like you described in order to purchase a puppy. Or that only those that are willing to go through that process are responsible dog owners. I believe, from observation and experience, that fine, healthy dogs can be had though other means.

And to Hound Hill, I do not share the opinion that breeders of show dogs as a group are more guilty than any other populations of breeding dogs without regard for temperament or sporting ability. Most dog breeds have genetic anomalies related to being purpose bred. As I also said I have had sight hounds and always loved the idea of Irish Wolfhounds and Scottish Deerhounds though only met a few and not known any well. And Ibizan hounds though never seen one in person.

I just don’t think acquiring healthy dogs requires going through all the steps being described by some here. Or that not requiring all the screening described of potential buyers makes one an irresponsible breeder, or not being willing to pay thousands of dollars and/or wait months or years for a puppy makes one an irresponsible owner.

And I don’t think anyone is saying the health screening shouldn’t be done or isn’t important. As I said my dogs, though not particularly expensive, and did not require I go through extensive screening by the breeder, had health screening and came with documentation of said results.

[QUOTE=neversaynever;8042056]
Agree with others on the elbows and hips. Check the OFA scoring also - OFA Fair is different then OFA Excellent. Parent OFA score does not guarantee your puppy will be ok, but it certainly ups the odds. Most hips and elbows certifications are done at 2 yrs old. Most health guarantees I have seen only cover 1 yr. I would get clarification on what happens if the dog can not get at least OFA Fair certification if the health guarantee is only up to 1 yr. You can get a preliminary screening at an earlier age, but that also does not mean they will pass at 2 yrs old, especially if they scored lower on the preliminary screening. By that time, they are definitely a member of the family…[/QUOTE]

Reference point.

[QUOTE=cowboymom;8042256]
A few posts ago, on page 8, all testing was being discussed.

Pardon me, I should have said “why is PennHip not being included in the discussion when you aren’t talking specifically about elbows?”

Clearly I am so stupid that the HIP in PennHIP escaped my notice. thanks there.[/QUOTE]

Sorry, cowboymom, I am clearly just irritated and annoyed by some on this thread, and took it out on you.

Of course PennHip is a valid and valuable testing tool, and we should have mentioned it and discussed it previously.

My bad, sorry, you were absolutely right in all you said.

I should have resisted the temptation to get into this thread again.

I have no issue with PennHip - it depends on the breed how useful it is. In some breeds it has become the standard, and in others, it is hardly used. In my breed, it is rarely used, so those breeders that do use it often end up doing both PennHip and OFA.

If I were breeding I’d want a pattern of clear hips, not just the clear results of the sire and dam. So…if 5 generations have clear OFAs…do you switch to PennHip and have the one score? Or do you do OFA too? PennHip tends to be a lot more expensive too, so between those two things it hasn’t caught on much in my breed.

Sorry too, I was going to go back and delete that post but you already quoted it.

I was feeling a little edgy there too, sorry for snapping at you!

HH you’re an excellent resource; I know that I come from the perspective that probably really frustrates you and probably I am one that should stay away from the thread.

[QUOTE=cowboymom;8042310]
Sorry too, I was going to go back and delete that post but you already quoted it.

I was feeling a little edgy there too, sorry for snapping at you!

HH you’re an excellent resource; I know that I come from the perspective that probably really frustrates you and probably I am one that should stay away from the thread.[/QUOTE]

Thanks cowboymom!

I feel like we would get along great in real life, I was so sorry I snapped at you, when you were really not the cause! How funny that you felt the same way!

It is hard for me to keep my mouth shut when I should! I wish I had the control and wisdom that my beloved hounds exhibit.

[QUOTE=Where’sMyWhite;8042110]
It may not matter if your dog passes OFA but it should matter if its parents do. True, as many have said, just because the parents do is no guarantee the pup will but it is a start.

Right, that’s what I said. I wouldn’t be getting hips/elbows clearances on my puppy, because I’m not intending to breed. But it matters if the parents have them.

What are you prepared to do and how will you feel when your pup grows up and has a major problem with hips or elbows or heart?

Well maybe it’s just me, but I find that a really insulting and downright stupid question.

You prepared to give it up? You prepared to pay for the medical expenses for care? Just asking.

Give it up? No. Pay for medical expenses? Depends on the cost.

As for worrying about what the breeders will be breeding next… if you like the breeder and trust their program based on past breeding decisions, then trust the breeder for future breeding decisions…

Ok, so as long as you trust the breeder, you’re not concerned about health clearances?[/QUOTE]

My responses in red because I’m still no good at the multi-quote

So now I have spoken with 3 different breeders who will sometimes breed without a clearance on a particular feature if everything else is good and the same feature is excellent on the other side, and also look at siblings/previous litters and the whole darn family tree and make a decision as to whether it’s worth the risk to breed the individual. After all, no dog is perfect and no bloodline is without any faults.

tldr: back to square one

Next on “is this common”:

Seller retains 1/2 ownership of the dog.

Is this the norm? I’ve now requisitioned a copy of one contract because I really want to see how this is set out. I think I might pass… which is too bad because I really, really liked this lady.

HH, count me in… my head hurts :slight_smile:

I have had this with dogs that the breeder retained breeding rights to…but in those cases no money changed hands. Dog lived with us and breeder continued to campaign dog and had right to a litter with the female, we got a puppy. The puppy was a male and breeder retained rights to a breeding with the male pup.

In this case we lived nearby and breeder kept his horses at my farm. We shared and bartered lots of things…free board for shared horse care and free horse sitting etc.

I am not going to get into the debate of show breeders v non show breeders but I will say that the majority of breeders/owners I know that show their dogs, those dogs are first and foremost their pets. I own, show(in conformation, agility, herding, obedience), and breed a breed that the majority of the dogs have multiple titles.

Our dogs are health tested, have multiple titles prior to being breed, but ultimately if they don’t have rock solid temperaments they are not bred. As my breeder says, if you can’t live with the dog, it doesn’t matter how amazing the dog is in the show or performance ring. In the one litter I go bred two puppies are pets only, and three are performance/showing. My bottom line was that they have good homes.

Well I know this may be unpopular, but… I co-own everything. Purchaser pays full price, but my name is on those puppies.

Why? If the owner dies, it gives me quicker access to the dog (already in the contract, but quicker).

They cannot breed without my signature (well they now can with a male, but hopefully it gives them pause).

I’ve never had anyone object, they say they are honored, and it gives me some peace of mind.

I also have breeding rights to the males (though I have yet to use them), and reserve the right to see the male before he is neutered (no one has yet to neuter a male).

For the bitches, they may only be bred if I approve of the stud dog. I expect to be consulted along the way.

It is trickier now that I am a judge, they of course cannot ever show to me.

The only time I bought from a well known (good reputation, references) breeder, out of my dog litter of 7, 4 died of parvo…mine survived because I had a very aggressive vet who did not give up. Breeder wanted the pup back so her vet could continue treatment (cheaper than mine)… I refused because I was not removing the IV until I knew for sure the dog was ok… another vet in town treating a littermate would remove the IV overnight… back to square 1 every morning… puppy died…Dogs had been vaccinated by breeder… She did pay my vet bills…

My other dogs were a backyard breeder (no issue at all with the dog who lived to be almost 16 (lab). My current dog was an owner surrender (by 3 different owners no less). We have had him 10 years! He had to have ACL surgery (accident) but his hip xrays were perfect!

No more breeders for me!