We've decided to get a puppy - breeder recommendations?

[Marshfield]

[QUOTE=saultgirl;8042073]

How do I pick a breeder if I don’t know what dogs they are going to be breeding the next time, or the time after? Then I have to start looking at the history of the dogs and make a decision about clearances, etc.[/QUOTE]

I have multiple bitches and have a good idea of who is being bred when over the next two years. I have sires selected for some, another I need to sort out. But, what I am able to tell folks is who I am planning to breed; provide links to their information in the OFA database. I have the same minimum criteria for any males used and the stud owners I use are happy to have me share their boys’ information as well.

[Marshfield]

[QUOTE=saultgirl;8042432]
Next on “is this common”:

Seller retains 1/2 ownership of the dog.

Is this the norm? I’ve now requisitioned a copy of one contract because I really want to see how this is set out. I think I might pass… which is too bad because I really, really liked this lady.[/QUOTE]

Not typical with pets, common with show dogs and breeding prospects. The one scenario where I have heard of it being done with pets (and not something I do) is as a way for a breeder to keep some legal connection so that in the event of the owner dying unexpectedly they have a means to reclaim the dog rather than having family members who don’t want the dog placing it in rescue or a shelter.

As to PennHip. If you come across it, it is a solid means of doing a hip evaluation. Veterinarians who offer it are required to have special certification. This, combined with cost and need for general anesthesia has meant that it is much less widely used than OFA. Most of mine have PennHip scores as it is readily available to me. And those are included in the OFA database.

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=saultgirl;8042073]
I won’t be breeding, so it won’t really matter if my dog passes clearances, and so far guarantees only mention “if the dog is crippled”. Of course, I haven’t seen anything in writing from any breeders yet – I’m afraid to ask after I apparently offended the first breeder from whom I requested a copy of the contract to review.

How do I pick a breeder if I don’t know what dogs they are going to be breeding the next time, or the time after? Then I have to start looking at the history of the dogs and make a decision about clearances, etc.[/QUOTE]

Also most of the health guarantees simply mean they will take back the dog & replace it with another puppy.

By the time health becomes an issue, the owner is usually so attached they won’t give up the dog anyway.

Just sayin’

[S1969]

[QUOTE=saultgirl;8042432]
Next on “is this common”:

Seller retains 1/2 ownership of the dog.

Is this the norm? I’ve now requisitioned a copy of one contract because I really want to see how this is set out. I think I might pass… which is too bad because I really, really liked this lady.[/QUOTE]

Not uncommon in the show world. At minimum, for co-owned females, BOTH co-owners must sign off on to register puppies from a breeding. So, the breeder maintains some degree of control of breeding that may occur from that puppy. In males, only the primary owner must sign off on the registration.

I would not hesitate to co-own a puppy from about 80% of the breeders I know. Most of the ones I would agree to it are simply trying to prevent unknown breeding of their puppies - they could sell them on limited registrations, but many don’t want to do this because in the right situation they would be willing to agree to a future breeding.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=FalseImpression;8042522]
The only time I bought from a well known (good reputation, references) breeder, out of my dog litter of 7, 4 died of parvo…

No more breeders for me![/QUOTE]

I certainly wouldn’t assume that “good breeders” are more likely to have an entire litter die from parvo. So while this is a really sad story, it hardly draws any conclusions about breeders in general.

It would be just as useful as my saying that I would only buy from a good show breeder because I know of a litter where all the puppies finished their Grand Championships and one was the national specialty winner. While it can happen, it’s certainly not indicative of “breeders” in general. What is that they say after legal commercials “prior results do not guarantee success.”

As for your other dogs - even dogs with mild dysplasia can live entirely uneventful lives. Health testing is not just about the individual dog, but about subsequent generations.

[saultgirl]

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;8042689]
Also most of the health guarantees simply mean they will take back the dog & replace it with another puppy.

By the time health becomes an issue, the owner is usually so attached they won’t give up the dog anyway.

Just sayin’[/QUOTE]

Actually, most of the breeders I have spoken to said their guarantee is either a refund of partial purchase price or a replacement puppy, buyer’s choice.

[saultgirl]

[QUOTE=Houndhill;8042496]
Well I know this may be unpopular, but… I co-own everything. Purchaser pays full price, but my name is on those puppies.

Why? If the owner dies, it gives me quicker access to the dog (already in the contract, but quicker).

They cannot breed without my signature (well they now can with a male, but hopefully it gives them pause).

I’ve never had anyone object, they say they are honored, and it gives me some peace of mind.

I also have breeding rights to the males (though I have yet to use them), and reserve the right to see the male before he is neutered (no one has yet to neuter a male).

For the bitches, they may only be bred if I approve of the stud dog. I expect to be consulted along the way.

It is trickier now that I am a judge, they of course cannot ever show to me.[/QUOTE]

How does it work if something should happen to you? Does your estate retain a right to the dog?

If you were to go through a divorce or bankruptcy, how is the purchaser protected from a claim against your interest in the dog from a third party?

Does your contract state clearly about the dog remaining in the possession of the purchaser?

I might be ok with this, once I review the contract in detail and go through it with a lawyer… I would just need to see that there is absolutely no way they have a right to take the dog back for any reason (other than upon our deaths- and I would ensure both my husband’s and my names are on the registration)…

I have no problem with signing a no-breeding contract and I do intend to have the dog spayed.

[saultgirl]

[QUOTE=Marshfield;8042655]
I have multiple bitches and have a good idea of who is being bred when over the next two years. I have sires selected for some, another I need to sort out. But, what I am able to tell folks is who I am planning to breed; provide links to their information in the OFA database. I have the same minimum criteria for any males used and the stud owners I use are happy to have me share their boys’ information as well.[/QUOTE]

That sounds reasonable and would be easy to work with! The breeders I have spoken to about plans for the future is pretty unclear because many of them are waiting for health clearances (due to ages of the dogs) or “don’t want to say” until a pregnancy is confirmed (don’t want to jinx it).

[S1969]

[QUOTE=saultgirl;8042826]
That sounds reasonable and would be easy to work with! The breeders I have spoken to about plans for the future is pretty unclear because many of them are waiting for health clearances (due to ages of the dogs) or “don’t want to say” until a pregnancy is confirmed (don’t want to jinx it).[/QUOTE]

Hmm…I would keep looking. Breeders that breed regularly (not necessarily a lot, but have a breeding program and a plan) would not be afraid to tell you about their breeding program. Typically breeders own bitches, and sometimes males, but they don’t always breed them together as they may be too closely related. (So, they may stand a dog at stud, AND breed their bitches). But even if it’s TWO years away, they would know what the plan was if all goes well.

I can’t think of a breeder that wouldn’t either say – "these are my breeding bitches, and we breed to males with XYZ criteria (OFA hips good or better, Elbows, eyes, and we tend to only use dogs that have championships/hunting titles/working titles…or whatever)…"and plan to breed this bitch in the fall, and that one next spring… "

OR, there are some fantastic breeders that breed very sporadically, based only on whether they have the right bitch at the right time. (E.g. I am hoping to breed my dog to one of these this year). Owner has ONE breeding age bitch, and no plans to breed her until my dog. If she is approached by a puppy buyer now - she would either say “I have absolutely nothing until at least next fall” or…“I have nothing until next fall…have you talked to so-and-so.”

If a breeder has no eligible bitches (yet) I’d keep looking for a breeder that does. That means either that they are in category #2 above…and they may breed if the stars align…or they aren’t an established breeder…or something else that isn’t very promising. If they have nothing - I would think a normal breeder would refer you to other breeders.

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=saultgirl;8042822]
Actually, most of the breeders I have spoken to said their guarantee is either a refund of partial purchase price or a replacement puppy, buyer’s choice.[/QUOTE]

True, but if your dog needs $3000 worth of care and they are only willing to give you back $1500, it’s not much of a deal.

Personally, I know you want a pup, but I’d go back to the rescue group and try to make it clear that the dog will have access to a large, safely fenced area, it’s just not attached to the house.

Most of the rescues have been fostered, so people know what they are like. Many of them are very young dogs. They won’t cost a fortune and you know what sort of temperaments & health issues they have (or don’t).

I can’t imagine the rescue turning you down if you were more clear on the set-up. If you keep coming back to them, they will “get” you are serious & responsible.

Also…I guess I have to wonder why these rescue dogs aren’t going back to their breeders? I’d want to know what program they came from (we assume the surrendering owners purchased them as AKC PBs).

Surely rescue groups try to contact the original breeder(s) in these cases?

Or not?

[saultgirl]

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;8043598]
True, but if your dog needs $3000 worth of care and they are only willing to give you back $1500, it’s not much of a deal.

Personally, I know you want a pup, but I’d go back to the rescue group and try to make it clear that the dog will have access to a large, safely fenced area, it’s just not attached to the house.

Most of the rescues have been fostered, so people know what they are like. Many of them are very young dogs. They won’t cost a fortune and you know what sort of temperaments & health issues they have (or don’t).

I can’t imagine the rescue turning you down if you were more clear on the set-up. If you keep coming back to them, they will “get” you are serious & responsible.

Also…I guess I have to wonder why these rescue dogs aren’t going back to their breeders? I’d want to know what program they came from (we assume the surrendering owners purchased them as AKC PBs).

Surely rescue groups try to contact the original breeder(s) in these cases?

Or not?[/QUOTE]

I didn’t contact a rescue group – I’m looking for a puppy. It was a breeder who got all weird and refused to listen to me explain about my set up and just said that was a deal breaker.

I want a cute, fluffy, clumsy, goofy puppy this time around.

I checked out some rescue group websites and found rescue fees (for large adult dogs with issues) in the $500 range. Frankly, someone would have to pay me to take on another large adult dog with issues!

[S1969]

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;8043598]
Also…I guess I have to wonder why these rescue dogs aren’t going back to their breeders? I’d want to know what program they came from (we assume the surrendering owners purchased them as AKC PBs).

Surely rescue groups try to contact the original breeder(s) in these cases?

Or not?[/QUOTE]

I definitely know my breed rescue will contact the breeders if they can figure out who they are. I know of a breeder that found one of their puppies through the rescue group - the owner didn’t contact their own breeder…just dumped the puppy.

Lots of them probably have no identification at all, and some may not be easily traced back to the breeder - just the owner.

In my breed rescue organizations, volunteers will pull dogs from public shelters and get them into foster homes - but very often have no idea where they came from. Some are picked up as strays with no ID. Sad.

[EKLay]

[QUOTE=saultgirl;8043731]

I want a cute, fluffy, clumsy, goofy puppy this time around.[/QUOTE]

I hear you! After doing adoption/rescue for all our other pets, I really wanted a puppy too. Something special about puppies.

[saultgirl]

[QUOTE=S1969;8043813]
I definitely know my breed rescue will contact the breeders if they can figure out who they are. I know of a breeder that found one of their puppies through the rescue group - the owner didn’t contact their own breeder…just dumped the puppy.

Lots of them probably have no identification at all, and some may not be easily traced back to the breeder - just the owner.

In my breed rescue organizations, volunteers will pull dogs from public shelters and get them into foster homes - but very often have no idea where they came from. Some are picked up as strays with no ID. Sad.[/QUOTE]

Isn’t anything registered supposed to be tattooed or microchipped, though? I’m pretty sure in Canada anything with papers must be permanently identified (although I’ve heard sometimes microchips can “migrate” and get lost, or tattoos fade).

[saultgirl]

[QUOTE=EKLay;8043820]
I hear you! After doing adoption/rescue for all our other pets, I really wanted a puppy too. Something special about puppies.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I have two cats who also came to me as adults; I’ve missed out on kittens and puppies thus far in my adult life!

[EKLay]

Ah, kittens! I’ve never had one of those either. Always adult cats. Someday…

[FalseImpression]

Keeping half ownership??? does the breeder also pay half the expenses…geez…

[enjoytheride]

I have a friend with a few show dogs and she has half ownership. It allows her to own a winning show dog and keeps it affordable. I do not see someone doing it for a pet, or for something that is spayed/neutered. Way too intrusive to have to ask someone’s permission to neuter a dog for a pet.

[Houndhill]

[QUOTE=saultgirl;8042823]
How does it work if something should happen to you? Does your estate retain a right to the dog?

If you were to go through a divorce or bankruptcy, how is the purchaser protected from a claim against your interest in the dog from a third party?

Does your contract state clearly about the dog remaining in the possession of the purchaser?

I might be ok with this, once I review the contract in detail and go through it with a lawyer… I would just need to see that there is absolutely no way they have a right to take the dog back for any reason (other than upon our deaths- and I would ensure both my husband’s and my names are on the registration)…

I have no problem with signing a no-breeding contract and I do intend to have the dog spayed.[/QUOTE]

Generally you can request to “customize” your contract however you want it. For example, in my last litter, I had a great owner whom I had known for many years request that in the event of his death, his son would take his hound. I was fine with this, we altered the contract, no problem.

In the event of my death, all my co-owned dogs revert ownership to the co-owner. If they get into place where they cannot keep their hound, my “Wolfhound Executor” will take the hound back or act in my behalf.

I’ve never had anyone ask what happens if I divorce, go bankrupt, am imprisioned, instutionalized, etc. Certainly I would be open to discussing this and would make whatever changes in the contract we agreed upon.

I must say I am a little “Old School” when it comes to contracts and had to be brought into the concept. For many years, I did not have contracts. I dealt with people I knew, usually for many years, they were friends. One of my mentors, a “pillar of the breed”, Samuel Evans Ewing III, did not use contracts although he was an attorney. I think everyone was a bit more casual in past years about their financial transactions in the dog world. However, misunderstandings can occur, and one thing Sam told me which has served me well is to have something in writing, even if in the form of a letter, that just says whatever your understanding is, for example, if for a stud service, what do agree to do if there are no puppies, one puppy, etc.

I think the main purpose of a contract is just to articulate what your expectations are. Evidently they are often not particularly enforceable by law. I just think of them as a way to make explicit the main message, which in the case of puppies, is that if anything happens to you, the puppy will have a soft place to fall.

[saultgirl]

[QUOTE=Houndhill;8044048]
Generally you can request to “customize” your contract however you want it. For example, in my last litter, I had a great owner whom I had known for many years request that in the event of his death, his son would take his hound. I was fine with this, we altered the contract, no problem.

In the event of my death, all my co-owned dogs revert ownership to the co-owner. If they get into place where they cannot keep their hound, my “Wolfhound Executor” will take the hound back or act in my behalf.

I’ve never had anyone ask what happens if I divorce, go bankrupt, am imprisioned, instutionalized, etc. Certainly I would be open to discussing this and would make whatever changes in the contract we agreed upon.

I must say I am a little “Old School” when it comes to contracts and had to be brought into the concept. For many years, I did not have contracts. I dealt with people I knew, usually for many years, they were friends. One of my mentors, a “pillar of the breed”, Samuel Evans Ewing III, did not use contracts although he was an attorney. I think everyone was a bit more casual in past years about their financial transactions in the dog world. However, misunderstandings can occur, and one thing Sam told me which has served me well is to have something in writing, even if in the form of a letter, that just says whatever your understanding is, for example, if for a stud service, what do agree to do if there are no puppies, one puppy, etc.

I think the main purpose of a contract is just to articulate what your expectations are. Evidently they are often not particularly enforceable by law. I just think of them as a way to make explicit the main message, which in the case of puppies, is that if anything happens to you, the puppy will have a soft place to fall.[/QUOTE]

And I am ok with the idea of the puppy having a soft place to land if something happens down the road… but legally, dogs are property and expensive dogs surely could be considered assets.

The details of some contracts may not be entirely enforceable, but registered ownership is a different thing!

Bankruptcies and divorces do NOT only happen to “bad” people; so knowing the people/being friends/being very selective doesn’t prevent those problems.