What about the Middle Class?

[Goodmudder]

I think the goal of helping kids/people to do more showing, or whatever, is admirable, But in terms of MAJOR efforts, my priorities are quite different. I would prefer to back causes that (a) save lives, and (b) provide better education, etc. Inner City kids need this far more than they need horses.

And as for the elitism - remember that MANY of the wealthiest people in our sport give away vast sums of money, to very worthy causes. The father of one of our very top juniors is just one of them, for example. I for one do not begrudge he and his family anything they have or want, simply because they have more than I do! They also give away more than I do!

[This message has been edited by Goodmudder (edited 10-16-2000).]

[Weatherford]

Ditto Ireland on those expenses, 3eme.

What I find particularly disturbing is what I consider the blatent greed that goes along with some show managers.

For example, at a recent Jumper Show - EVERY money class and division was SPONSORED in full. The only officials were the two judges. No paid steward, no paid course designer. Perhaps paid gate keeper. Very expensive party tent ($600/table, I believe.)

Entry fees were as high (or almost) as in Wellington, even in the NON-MONEY divisions. The ONLY riders who might have made back their entry fees were the ones who actually won a stakes class (or two).

Makes me stop to think - what were the expenses, here? Where was this money going? Why couldn’t it be returned to the owners by lowering entry fees?

Another example is stabling - a tent for a week’s arab show is $45 per stall (for the week). The SAME tent the following week for the hunter jumper show was $145. This does not make sense to me.

And it contributes to the perception of Hunter/Jumper elitism.

There are a million members of the AQHA. And while it may be just as expensive to show (from the owner/horse/equipment/trainer poit of view), the perception is simply not there. As a matter of fact, QH shows do all they can to at least have “add-back” prize money in all classes. Plus the association is cheaper to join, and they have achievement awards that can be earned over a period of years (ROM, Champion, Superior Champion, etc. based on horse beat) rather than only annual awards. They also support 4-H and other programs for kids who don’t have horses.

All this deflects from the money angle.

So, what can we do differently? Do we even care or want to? I know, I do.

[ccoronios]

This is a subject near and dear to me. For all the years that I showed, every time I went to a show, at least one other bill waited to be paid. Showing horses IS expensive, and I don’t see that it is EVER going to be a sport that everyone can participate in.
That said, yes, there were hack barns/livery stables in many areas of the country while I was growing up. Heck, I taught a lot of kids to ride - in more than one, after I was “up”. WHY don’t they exist anymore? Can anyone say “Lawsuit” / “insurance”?? No one (well, hardly anyone) can afford to rent horses with the initial cost, upkeep, insurance and litigation possibilities. For the most part, those cute little “waivers” everyone [used to] sign don’t hold much water, and most states have not gotten around to passing “understood risk” legislation (I know that’s not what it’s called, but …)

Riding is such a self-disciplining, rewarding, patience-learning experience that Kathy Kusner’s idea would seem to be ideal - but I’m not sure that promoting it with the goal of showing is realistic - or wise.

The idea of lowering entry fees with sponsorship money is terrific. So was the idea of “double pointed” shows - where you went to a show, were judged by 2 judges, got 2 ribbons, and spent half the stall fees, half the hotel fees, half the trainer fees, half the gas fees, (you get the picture) - and SUPPOSEDLY lower entry fees. HA… But an interesting point is raised. Where DOES the sponsorship money go? I have suggested to at least one organization that they feed it back to ALL the competitors, instead of just the winners - like one free stall per owner… or $25 off the stall fee - with bigtime recognition that this savings is brought to you by XYZ Company. Good will? Warm fuzzies for that company name, next time you see it? You betcha!

Of course, part of the expense of shows is the grounds that “we” (competitors) demand. We want indoor arenas, in case we should get a little damp (like we’re going to MELT??) We want STALLS - even at a one-day show! We want covered warmup areas… And fancy footing… (no I’m not suggesting that we endanger our critters - and that spongy shredded sneakers is comfy - but it DOES add to the expense!)…

OK - enough already.

[nutmeg]

Nancy Reaganomics? (Donning asbestos suit)

[Snowbird]

Amen! Prize money is not a good criteria for rating horse shows.

I do so agree, it was Karl Marx who said that communism would defeat capitalism when 50% of the people had to support the other 50%.

But, I think you need to look at the Increment System which is much more important for leveling the playing field. That’s why some of us have proposed the Rule Change to roll back the increments in order to make this a more attractive sport for the middle class.

[Everythingbutwings]

Don’t leave out the inter-collegiate shows. Intramural sports have long been a leveler on the playing field. I’m not talking those private specialized academies, I mean VA Tech, etc, where students can participate as a part of their curriculum.

Kids who want to ride badly enough find ways to manage to do so. Money is definately a major factor but I personally shop at The Old Habit, ebay and consignment stores for “used but not abused” clothing and equipment. I do my own feeding and mucking out, unloading of hay and grain and, UCK, tack cleaning. Grooming is something I can’t imagine paying someone else to do for me, it is too nice!

If I or my son are ever lucky enough and good enough to qualify for a major show I will then somehow come up with the entry fee. There are plenty of smaller shows and events for us in the lower middle class range. I go to the big events to soak up knowledge and gain understanding. I learn alot from the great people on the COTH board and am lucky enough to have had parents that indulged my horse mania as much as they could afford.

Until then - I love to ride and that’s enough.

[Jo]

Had this conversation during my stats lab last period… (Yes, I’m “illegally” using the computers, hee hee.) My boyfriend plays soccer and plans on going pro… He didn’t think that all the fees were that expensive, since entering a soccer tournament is “expensive” – I think he said around $100? He shut up when I told him that HE would be the one paying the board, vet bills, farrier bills, supplment bills, chiropractor bills, etc… even without showing… Maybe by the time I have the time, money, and interest to show I’ll be able to afford it. Although I was disheartened by the “grooms” thread where everyone is discussing the depressing labor market.

[DMK]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TXJumper:
I was told this weekend that “you can’t go to the bigger shows (Indio, WEF) without a horse that costs the same as a house…” <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

TXJumper… I’ll have to disagree with that person, at least from personal experience. I will have to say that you do have to have a combination of being able to spot natural talent, bring it along at least to a certain extent, and oh, yes… just plain luck. But I will add that WEF ribbons on your free OTTB are that much sweeter

[Flash44]

I think it an absolute joke that anyone would pay over $15,000 for a horse unless it had a proven record and was going to be used for breeding purposes. Or unless it was going to make that money back plus pay for it’s expenses. I can’t think of a worse thing to spend money on. It’s just absurd.

I will probably never go back to rated shows. At my local circuit, I paid about $8 a class, and with training/trailering, barely spent $100 a show. AND I had fun, picked up some ribbons and learned a lot. AND some of the shows were held at the same facilities as rated shows.

[Inverness]

It must be Monday. I thought this thread was going to be about yet another Hunter Class that I had never heard of.

I’d actually thought of the possibility of establishing a scholarship-type fund on the local level for kids who want to show but cannot afford it.

Any thoughts?

[woodbern]

Ha. Show managers both don’t care AND don’t want to.

I have always wanted to see a French Revolution of sorts by the supporters of some particularly greedy major shows…

[B.G.M_heidi]

Why is an A show the ultimate goal - is the food better, is the competition better, are the shows better organized, is the prize money greater, is the footing better in the jumper ring, are the people who frequent and compete at these shows smarter, nicer, more charming?

I doubt highly the A shows will ever be financially feasible for many - but the reasons behind the whys and howcomes make for an interesting debate.

In my Marxist view of the world (which is a really amusing self descriptor given that many who know me would call me the very embodiment of capitalist evil), the people who run the A shows, the governing bodies which oversee the A circuit nationally, and the people who have the unlimited funds to show at A shows year round (on their recently imported warmblood mounts) DO NOT want it to be affordable for the middle class. The A circuit is a microsmic slice of the world around us - you know the adult world of exclusive country clubs and adolescent cliques. It’s about exclusion.

[Lori]

Heidi and Emma1, you are correct IMHO.
I grew up MAKING it affordable. My only goal was to one day ride the A circuit. I knocked on doors to find horses to ride. When I was old enough to have a job and afford a pony, I knocked on doors to find a place to board. Usual rate was $50.00 for self-care and house/pet sitting thrown in on the side. I only full boarded twice and was actually happier with the self care and went back to it. Although I never had the luxury of rubber footing or an indoor, I MADE it happen.
I now have a pony on my own place in lovely Rappahannock, VA. Unlimited trails. My “ring” is a bit uneven (oh, what I would not give for an excavator!) and only grass, but I have managed to purchase some PVC jumps that look great in it!!
I also became friends with a superb QH trainer that used to ride the AQHA circuit. They quit over 10 years ago due to the snobbery in it. Yep. They said that if your tack was not correct and your clothes not the “in” style (styles changed YEARLY, too), that you did not stand a chance. The same people won all the time. PLUS, one winning stud was GELDED in the stall by a jealous competitor. So, it is not all the H/J folks.
OK, so I never will ride the circuit. However, improving my riding skills and enjoying my pony is more important to me than chasing points. Even if I am a nobody and no one really ever sees me ride, I still consider myself very lucky to even have this chance in life. Sure, sometimes I wish I had the means to go to the A’s, to say otherwise would not be honest.
I do show locally several times a year and that seems to satisfy my “show bug”.
I do not accept the “elitist” view of riding and to show that, I do not support the shows that project this image.

[Goodmudder]

OK, I’m going to get flamed I’m sure, but I think we need to face facts. Competitive riding is an extremely expensive sport, not for the faint of heart. IT IS AN ELITIST SPORT, economically. To deny this fact is to me impossible. We live in a capitalistic society/economy, and not everyone can afford everything. I wish they could, but they can’t. I can afford more things than some, less than others. I encourage my children to be generous.

But - to me, it is totally unrealistic to feel that all things should be available to all people. Some people have huge estates, others (including me), do not. I wish I could buy a $700K hunter for my daughter, but I can’t. I’d like to have a house in Aspen; I don’t. I wish every child rider could go to WEF, but, unfortunately, they can’t.

The playing field in riding, as in life, is simply not level. Every individual has to deal with it and make the choices that are important and realistic to him/herself. And then do their best.

[3eme]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Inverness:
[B]

How does the system in Europe differ, 3eme?

[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Entry fees here are really minimal, and prize money is not like in the U.S. To show on a national level (equivalent to the “A” Circuit in the States), classes can cost between about $12 for lower amateur level and a maximum of $40 or so for Grand Prix level.

As you can see…it’s pretty affordable, and not just by the rich. As a result, you see a really varied population at shows.

And since the people with horses are NOT necessarily rich, it forces the rest of the industry to be competitive with pricing. So… Horse prices are lower. My farrier and vet bills are less than half they would be in the States. My board? I pay $400 a month — but that is higher than most, because it includes my 2 private lessons a week and one of my horses is one special bedding. Shipping to shows? No more than $25. You get the picture.

I maintain that if you lower the overall pricing for showing, the rest of the industry is forced to follow suit, or go out of business!

[This message has been edited by 3eme (edited 10-16-2000).]

[Janet]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jo:
Although I was disheartened by the “grooms” thread where everyone is discussing the depressing labor market.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The current labor market is only depressing for the people who are trying to hire. Not, in general, for people trying to find jobs.

[hp1]

Lots of good points have been made here.

When we talk about riding are we refering to showing? Lessons? Horse care?

I don’t think the point of the program mentioned in the original post is to develope potential talent for the show circuit. I believe western riding is also part of the program too. The story about one the students going to WEF seemed to be an exception and one that would appeal to COTH readership.

[jch]

I started to read this at work and really got excited! Both tennis and golf used to be considered “elitist”, too. But, then city parks started building tennis courts and municipal golf courses. They were often staffed by young people just starting out in the ranks of professionals. Sometimes big name pros would come to the parks to give clinics, sign autographs and just generally help build enthusiasm for the sport. I know that a stable cost more than a tennis court, but probably not much more than a golf course and some of the costs could be offset by people who boarded their horses at the city stable! I think this is a real opportunity for the AHSA to form a partnership or relationship with some city recreation leagues. I don’t know for sure, but it’s my understanding that in Europe, the horse shows are so well supported by the people in the towns that it is like the way Americans support local soccer leagues. It just makes sense - think about all the income that could be generated for restaurants, hotels, gas stations, you name it! It should make the shows more affordable as more people get involved and cities help sponsor some of the costs. Also, the kids who get started at the local rec league could become the grand prix rider of the future. I’m sorry to go on and on, but I think that Moesha has started a really wonderful idea - affordable riding for everyone!!

[3eme]

With all due respect, Goodmudder, the playing field IS level, in Europe!

(Proof that it can happen!)

[nutmeg]

May I sing along with Moose? There used to be a livery stable and a Pony Club barn in my town which supported themselves mainly through inexpensive lessons for children. Once strip mall and condominium developers drove up the price of the land, they were forced out of business by skyrocketing leases. The irony is that once you follow the paper trail, half the names of the corporate heads become familiar… their children are all on the A circuit! It’s a simple redistribution of wealth (heads up, Karl Marx!). If I even wanted my daughter to walk around the ring for $10 per half hour on a Shetland, I and she would be SOL in my town.