As a young teen my A circuit H/J trainer fell in love with the Parelli methods. I already knew horsekeeping but I knew nothing of true horsemanship. I actually learned how to read a horses’ behavior and actions and I still use those principles 15 years later.
Could I have learned this from another NH trainer? Absolutely, and I have in the years since. Parelli just happened to be the first one I was introduced to so I can honestly credit him to opening my eyes toward a new way of doing things.
Haven’t read the answers. The one good thing about Parelli is it a lesson in marketing to the masses and proves “Barnum effect” is alive and well…
I once sold a four year old gelding to a lady who is very into Parelli. A few years later, I called her to see if she would consider selling him, as I had a beginner rider he’d be perfect for.
Went to look at him, and she did all sorts of stuff to him on the ground, most of which got no real response from the horse. Next, she saddled up and got on, and walked and trotted some circles, and said that’s as far as they had gotten in the Parelli system, as the horse wasn’t ready for more.
I just shook my head. Got on, walked, jogged and loped a bit, then stopped, dropped the bridle, loped a few figure eights with lead changes, stopped, backed and spun left and right. The lady just stood there with her mouth open,saying he wasn’t ready for that, according to the Parellis. I told her he was doing all that four years ago when she bought him, and hadn’t forgotten any of it.
Horse came home with me and to his new owner…who still adores him 15 years later.
Pluvinel, the RS clinic is at Ardara Sport Horses on Saturday. Here is a link to the flyer. I will shoot you a PM in case you don’t check back.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzQSQgFlSardLVhhUTlORzY2Mmc/view
Thanks…but weather isn’t looking good for Saturday. Snow, sleet & freezing rain forecast. Be safe if you’re trailering.
[h=2][[/h][INDENT]I can’t copy either! ShortStrided wrote:
I think directional pressure (squeezing a rein) is very different from wiggling a lead rope and expecting a horse to move backwards… I’m not sure any “classically” (meaning regular/everyday) trained horse person, or horse, would connect those dots or recognize that cue for backing. It just seems odd to me and I question the usefulness… but different strokes.
Actually, as a dressage rider I can tell you that horses have to be trained to yield to directional pressure. The natural instinct is to pull against pressure. They have to be taught to yield to pressure - rein, leg, seat. You can’t hop on a training level horse and expect the horse to half-pass to correct aids, or do shoulder-in, haunches-in, or simple changes or lead changes. The horse has to be taught how to respond to the aids and balance, and that takes time, desire and muscle.
Along those lines, NH does not expect that if you wiggle a lead rope, the horse automatically backs up. The horse is taught this, like everything else. It starts with the horse shifting weight back, without even changing a foot. Release - the horse understands that it did something that stopped the stimulus. Next, the horse takes a step back. Release - the horse has made the next connection. Then, the horse takes a nice step backwards and understands the cue. You don’t teach this in one day! You don’t teach leg yields in one day, either! Yet leg yields sound like such a simple concept…move away from the leg.
IME, much of the NH stuff is very similar at the core. Parelli, Lyons, Anderson, Brannaman, Black, and the horsemen first brought the NH stuff to the public (i.e Dorrance and others). People put their own spin on their techniques and then make a living off of teaching it.
[/INDENT]
I have a related question:
How do the Parelli instructors/clinicians treat the human students? I’ve seen the OMGTHISISHORRIBLEHOWCANTHEYDOTHISTOTHEPOORHORSE?!?!?! videos, but never having been at a clinic, I’ve never seen the clinician/human interactions.
Over the years, I’ve seen a wide range of flavors of riding instructors in terms of how they encourage/correct/chastise - does that same range exist in the Parelli instructors/clinicians, or are they more “If A, then B” with the humans like they are with the horses?
I finally found a video of his with good enough sound for my aging ears to decipher what he was saying 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAM_t56q2wA
It’s a long one, but I like what I see in the beginning. Thanks for the recommendation.
I liked the Martha Stewart analogy.
Only Martha Stewart with a creepy feel.
[QUOTE=Risk-Averse Rider;9009043]
I have a related question:
How do the Parelli instructors/clinicians treat the human students? I’ve seen the OMGTHISISHORRIBLEHOWCANTHEYDOTHISTOTHEPOORHORSE?!?!?! videos, but never having been at a clinic, I’ve never seen the clinician/human interactions.
Over the years, I’ve seen a wide range of flavors of riding instructors in terms of how they encourage/correct/chastise - does that same range exist in the Parelli instructors/clinicians, or are they more “If A, then B” with the humans like they are with the horses?[/QUOTE]
Humans write the checks. Therefore they will be treated in a way to ensure that they continue to write checks.
G.
I’m not a kool-aid drinker, though I do understand the appeal of Parelli, which others have pointed out.
Back in the day, before NH became big, I was super into Monty Roberts. I used the “join-up” method on my older guy, with great results. He was abused, and was terrified of people (and everything else), and it just… worked. Nothing else did. It really helped him trust me, and form a bond.
That being said, I also tried it on the mare we got at the same time. Did it work? Absolutely not. I tried it on other horses over the years, with very little success.
A few years ago I was given a… special OTTB. She had no self-preservation, was a very slow learner, and couldn’t remember what we had done one day to the next. I was having a very hard time simply leading her (she had been trained to race, injured, then thrown in a field for 8 years). My friend tried some basic Parelli stuff… and it worked. And she remembered it! Maybe it was her simple brain, maybe it was my friend, maybe it was Parelli. I do remember thinking it was a bunch of hoopla at the time, though.
Risk-Averse Rider
[INDENT]I have a related question:
How do the Parelli instructors/clinicians treat the human students? I’ve seen the OMGTHISISHORRIBLEHOWCANTHEYDOTHISTOTHEPOORHORSE?!? !?! videos, but never having been at a clinic, I’ve never seen the clinician/human interactions.
Over the years, I’ve seen a wide range of flavors of riding instructors in terms of how they encourage/correct/chastise - does that same range exist in the Parelli instructors/clinicians, or are they more “If A, then B” with the humans like they are with the horses?
??? Every instructor is an individual, no matter what the discipline. If you’ve learned anything from this thread, you should know that A) Parelli teaches a basic set of tools that can be widely used B) lots of good horse people learned Parelli and then left them and C) anyone can employ marketing tools but a real horseperson can tell the difference between a marketing scheme and horse trainer. I’ll also add that while this in not MY cup of tea, I know some very great horse people who totally buy into the Parelli system and are very happy to work mostly with their horses on the ground. Their horses receive great care and are rather happy with a mental workload rather than a more physical workload. None of these horses are suffering and their mouths/joints aren’t being taxed by bad riding. Who here wants to argue that these horses don’t enjoy their lives?
“Natural Horsemanship” trainers are no different from dressage or H/J or western trainers. Some are going to feed you lines and take your money. Some really care about your progress. Some are decent ground people but crappy riders. Some are good riders but can’t teach. There’s no “Parelli-trained trainers are this” any more than "dressage-trained trainers are this. The proof is in the pudding of the individual trainer, and as horse owners, we get to pick and choose which philosophy works for us and our horses.[/INDENT]
Natural horsemanship ( whether Parelli or otherwise) seems to draw a particular derision on this board. There are other methods used on horses that do not seem to draw as much constant fire. Now-- in any case, a case can be made that there are people who drink the koolaid-- who take the method to a silly extreme, and to a place that is not safe for horse and for person.
Is NH as bad for a horse as being over-lunged? Is a lunged to death horse preferrable? Is a drugged horse more objectionable? etc.
I think a lot of the derision about NH is simply a boundary marker of us and them. There is a culture clash if you will between the values that inform NH practices and those of the elite hunter/jumper show world for another. They clash. You mark out which group you belong to by how or whether you subscribe to the values. People in the elite hunter/jumper show world might for instance claim to do right by their horse in it having a pampered life in standing in ice boots after it is worked. Some people might raise an eyebrow at that, some might think it is a great thing to do-- some might wonder if it is right to work a horse to the point it needs that. And the view you take marks out the values you bring to your horse activity. An us and them view-- whether you are NH, not NH, elite hunter/jumper, something else altogether.
There is something that can be learned from all approaches, and no doubt all approaches include things that can be taken to objectionable extremes, over-marketed practices, too expensive services. The whole trainer in command of horse business model is a very American practice, not one you will easily find in Europe for instance.
What about, for instance, the criticisms of the perched equitation pose, the persistent jumping up the horse’s neck ahead of the motion as the “right” way to jump? It is a good way to get planted in the dirt if the horse comes to a sudden stop in front of a jump, it is not a secure or effective seat, but someone has deemed it looks good. And there you go, it gets ribbons, and becomes the sought after look. A different kind of koolaid but koolaid nonetheless.
I think most have little “aversion” to NH per se, but more to the way the P’s force it down the throat. I think there is a lot of good to be had from the basic horse handling but not so much for the actual riding . I see a lot of danger in some of the games they play such as running along with your horse loose near you. I watched a lady getting run away with in a ring one day-fesh from a P clinic- wioth her reins flapping, making no attempt to slow the horse down. I kept yelling at her to pull on the reins and she said I can’t! When the horse finally got dizz y enoguh i guess, stopped and I asked why she couldn’t pull on the reins, she replied that PP told her she shouldn’t!Probably the biggest problem is that the people that are really tend to be into this are first time horse owners that want a relationship with their horse with little or no aspiration for show ring success; just want to have a large companion that does what they tell them .
[QUOTE=Sunflower;9010259]
Natural horsemanship ( whether Parelli or otherwise) seems to draw a particular derision on this board. There are other methods used on horses that do not seem to draw as much constant fire. Now-- in any case, a case can be made that there are people who drink the koolaid-- who take the method to a silly extreme, and to a place that is not safe for horse and for person.
Is NH as bad for a horse as being over-lunged? Is a lunged to death horse preferrable? Is a drugged horse more objectionable? etc.
I think a lot of the derision about NH is simply a boundary marker of us and them. There is a culture clash if you will between the values that inform NH practices and those of the elite hunter/jumper show world for another. They clash. You mark out which group you belong to by how or whether you subscribe to the values. People in the elite hunter/jumper show world might for instance claim to do right by their horse in it having a pampered life in standing in ice boots after it is worked. Some people might raise an eyebrow at that, some might think it is a great thing to do-- some might wonder if it is right to work a horse to the point it needs that. And the view you take marks out the values you bring to your horse activity. An us and them view-- whether you are NH, not NH, elite hunter/jumper, something else altogether.
There is something that can be learned from all approaches, and no doubt all approaches include things that can be taken to objectionable extremes, over-marketed practices, too expensive services. The whole trainer in command of horse business model is a very American practice, not one you will easily find in Europe for instance.
What about, for instance, the criticisms of the perched equitation pose, the persistent jumping up the horse’s neck ahead of the motion as the “right” way to jump? It is a good way to get planted in the dirt if the horse comes to a sudden stop in front of a jump, it is not a secure or effective seat, but someone has deemed it looks good. And there you go, it gets ribbons, and becomes the sought after look. A different kind of koolaid but koolaid nonetheless.[/QUOTE]
Have you ever watched any of the “instructional” videos the Parelli system sells?
Ever seen the Barney video, showing how to calm and regain control of a stirred up horse, the one teaching how to clunk properly with the snap on the bottom of their halter on a hitching rail, then on a grey arabian’s head and so on?
I think if you had, you would not be saying “they are just different and people don’t like different”.
I would add this. To account for any system or school, you have to look at what comes out, what it produces in the end. An audit of the results, if you like.
The advanced riders and trainers that have associated themselves at one time or another with Parelli, the O’Conners, for example, or Leon Harrel, or Walter Zetle, to name a few, accomplished their success outside of Parelli, without employing his method. Then, for various reasons, joined up with him for the demonstrations at expos and what not. Pat puts these people out there as if to say, these are the students of the Parelli method. But those people were good long before he came on the scene. But the implication is by association.
Kind of like the ripped dudes with washboard abs, that go on to sell and represent some ab machine for a company, when he all ready had the abs, and never used the darn thing, until they hired him as a spokesperson.
It’s normal in advertising. But in the Parelli case, it comes off as dishonest.
The real truth if you look at the majority of students, is a population of rope wigglers who end up the laughing stock of most barns. The only success they achieve is with one another in their own little world. The only thing a level four person can achieve is to make more level one and two people, who then teach more of them, and so on.
The only experience I have with Parelli is seeing people who had a few problems with their riding who went to a clinic, bought a bunch of gadgets and videos, then gave up on riding. Now they have lovely horses that they play silly games with in the arena while others are trying to jump school. It looks more like puppy class to me. I keep my dogs at home and they cost a lot less than what I pay to use the arena to jump school my horse!
People like Buck Branahan distance themselves from the NH title…it’s been too corrupted over the years But there is no dispute that he is one of the best horsemen of our times. As well as the other greats often mentioned.
My personality does not mesh with the ooh’s and aaah’s of the crowd that generally surround Parelli, and the required laughter at his patter and alliterations.
There is a difference between colt starting, and training to a higher level for whatever discipline one may choose. Many of these ranch hands are very gifted with their patience and way with young horses, but they don’t all go out to make a bunch of instructional videos with the aim of a big buck.
[QUOTE=Foxtrot’s;9010521]
People like Buck Branahan distance themselves from the NH title…it’s been too corrupted over the years But there is no dispute that he is one of the best horsemen of our times. As well as the other greats often mentioned.
My personality does not mesh with the ooh’s and aaah’s of the crowd that generally surround Parelli, and the required laughter at his patter and alliterations.
There is a difference between colt starting, and training to a higher level for whatever discipline one may choose. Many of these ranch hands are very gifted with their patience and way with young horses, but they don’t all go out to make a bunch of instructional videos with the aim of a big buck.[/QUOTE]
So well put I wish I had said it!
Quote function not working
<<Have you ever watched any of the “instructional” videos the Parelli system sells?
Ever seen the Barney video, showing how to calm and regain control of a stirred up horse, the one teaching how to clunk properly with the snap on the bottom of their halter on a hitching rail, then on a grey arabian’s head and so on?
I think if you had, you would not be saying “they are just different and people don’t like different”. >>
Except that is not what I said.
My comments on NH are broader than the Parelli brand of it. As others have pointed out the NH label is eschewed by many who may be doing things regarded as NH. But NH may have become a rather perjorative label, never mind the practices behind it. Parelli is one thing, all of NH is perhaps another.
But there is a particular derision about NH … in whatever stripe.
There are equally objectionable practices in video by hunter/jumper people… NH brings a particular reaction.
And if you will read my post, you will see that I acknowledge problems in the extreme approaches of any riding discipline-- those who drink the koolaid wherever it is being served.
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