I knew this a hundred years ago in my pony club days. i remember a chestnut was involved. anyone?
Ohhh! I know this one. 
Cremello bred to chestnut gives a: 100% chance of palomino
I bred a palomino to a TB mare registered as a “red roan” and I got a palomino - go figure!!!:lol:
One of ours is a Dun/Chestnut cross that came out Palomino.
so palamino + palamino or cremello + palamino? something with a dorsal strip and a chestnut? how are there papered warmblood palaminos?
Here’s one to confuse! We’ve got a dun GRP colt who’se mother is bay and father is chestnut, and at least one sibling out of that same bay mother was palomino [correction, dun]. And, I’ve seen other ponies from the same sireline have the same thing happen,too.
Kelly.
A palomino is a chestnut horse that is modified by one cream dilute gene. Any time a palomino is one of the parents, there is a 50% chance that the palomino pass its cream gene to the offspring.
A cremello is a chestnut horse with TWO cream genes – thus it is called a double dilute. A cremello will ALWAYS pass on a cream gene to offspring. So if you breed a cremello to a chestnut, your chances of palomino are 100%.
Breed a chestnut to a palomino and you have a 50% chance of palomino and a 50% chance of chestnut.
Our palomino stallion is the result of a buckskin sire and a bay dam. The bottom line is you need a cream gene to dilute a color in order to get palomino.
There is a terrific color chart at http://www.doubledilute.com/color-chart.htm that gives you the color possibilities when you make crosses.
It is confusing. To get a palomino, at least one parent must carry the creme gene. A horse with one creme gene is palomino, buckskin or smoky black. A horse with two creme genes is cremello, perlino or smoky cream. If one of the parents has two creme genes, the foal will definitely get one of them.
Cremello is two creme genes over chestnut, so it is true that a cremello bred to a chestnut will always yield a palomino. But there are many other ways of getting a palomino, as long as neither parent throws black or agouti (bay).
Dun is a completely different gene. A dun cannot be a parent or a foal of a palomino. The dun would have to carry the creme gene as well as the dun gene (and would then be a dunalino or dunskin). And a bay and a chestnut cannot produce either a dun or a palomino. I’m not saying that isn’t what it LOOKS like. But genetically it can’t be true. I’d guess that the bay is actually a buckskin, as is the dun colt.
[QUOTE=Kelly G;2231001]
Here’s one to confuse! We’ve got a dun GRP colt who’se mother is bay and father is chestnut, and at least one sibling out of that same bay mother was was palomino. And, I’ve seen other ponies from the same sireline have the same thing happen,too.
Kelly.[/QUOTE]
One of those parents is a dilute – ie buckskin or palomino. It could very likely be that the mare is a smutty buckskin as it can be mistaken for bay. It is NOT POSSIBLE to get a dilute (buckskin, palomino) offpsring from parents that don’t carry the cream gene. One of the parents MUST carry it if that is the color of your colt. A grandsire or granddam is not close enough. It has to be from one of the parents.
Yes, I’m told it’s the sireline that carries the dilute [correction, dun] gene [don’t know about the damline]. The colt is by the stallion Dornik B, who is a pale chestnut, but very definitely a chestnut to look at. He comes from the same line as the stallion FS Don’t Worry, who is also a similar light chestnut, and both stallions [and obviously other horses in the line] have a reputation for producing “duns” from [seemingly?] non-dilute mares. I’d never seen that before this bloodline, so I’ve found it a bit intriguing. 
Kelly.
No no no…
Firstly there are no Roans in thoroughbreds (unless you had a Birdcatcher (AUS) descendant.) There are rabicanos. More likely you had a grey, or a chestnut rabicano. No ‘go figuring’ involved. Got dad’s dilute and mom’s chestnut, probably…
Secondly, KellyG & Unbridledoaks, the scenarios you described are IMPOSSIBLE.
Could I guess perhaps that you have an FS Don’t Worry baby, Kelly? He is recorded chestnut on most sources but from photos I’ve seen and videos, he is quite decidedly (with his dorsal striple and other dun markings) a red dun. Duns (that is, bay dun and red dun) can very closely mimic their base color alone. So it would not be completely impossible for a chestnut-based horse like FS Don’t Worry to be mistaken for being a chestnut, when he is in reality a red dun. Grulla is the black version of dun but it is definitely much different than a regular black horse.
Unbridledoaks, I assume that the one you refer to is on your website - Danaway Sunny? His sire is actually a buckskin and not a dun. So he received the dilute gene from dad and the chestnut from mom, resulting in Palomino.
To further confuse the issue - in Europe (and England, especially) there is no differentiation between dun and buckskin. Which is quite absurd, considering they are completely different colors, genetically and phenotypically. Horses are also quite frequently (it seems anyways) misregistered…
Duns and dilutes are dominant genes. To get a dun, you MUST have one dun parent. To get a dilute (smokey black, palOmino, buckskin) you must have one dilute parent.
Palomino x Palomino = Chestnut, Palomino, or Cremello
Palomino x Chestnut = Chestnut or Palomino
There are papered palomino warmbloods because dilutes were approved into the studbooks. They didn’t just magically appear - they were (hopefully) good enough to be what the warmblood book(s) were looking for, despite their color. Some verbands have traditionally been pretty anti-color - tobiano, overo, dilute, or otherwise. Some continue to be that way. Some are not (RPSI, OLD, Hessen, Zweibrucken, the sportpony/riding pony studbooks, etc).
My mistake! Like you said, they don’t register the right color between Buckskin and Dun.
Neither the Welsh Society in the US or UK register buckskin correctly. It is called dun by both of them, even though there is no true dun in the Welsh breeds.
[QUOTE=tracy;2230992]
so palamino + palamino or cremello + palamino? something with a dorsal strip and a chestnut? how are there papered warmblood palaminos?[/QUOTE]
YES!! There is one papered WB Palomino. I saw him in the back of a mag advertised at stud. The ad mentioned that he was either the only one, or one of the few WB palominos-I can’t remember which.
Dazedandconfused, you must have missed my second post, where I clarified that our colt is by Dornik B, and that the line he and FS Don’t Worry come from [apparently] produces this [duns] repeatedly. Yes, as I mentioned in the second post, I realise that this means Dornik, Don’t Worry, and many others from this line are [or would have to be?] not true chestnuts at all. It’s interesting what you mentioned about dun and buckskin being two seperate colours. Now, don’t get me wrong, I don’t doubt what you’re saying for a second, but I think the reason so many of us assume them to be the same colour is because there have over the years been lord knows how many books that described them as the same, so I for one never thought to doubt that they were. If, as you say, they’re different colours, then please make a point of letting others like me know about it if you can, because I’ll bet there are lots who don’t know. :winkgrin:
Kelly.
PS. I’d actually be really grateful if anyone who’s an expert on colours would have a look at the colt I’ve been referring to, Dornik Folklore, and his mum and dad, and tell me what colours they all technically are, especially the parents. We’ve also got a colt by the “buckskin?” stallion, FS Champion de Luxe and out of a chestnut mare who’s a bay according to his papers [Champion de Ville], but I’ve often wondered with him if he’s actually a very dark “buckskin”, too. They’re both listed on the stallion page of our Team Global website, if anyone would like to have a look and clarify the colour thing for me. Thanks in advance, if anyone does. :winkgrin:
Actually, while I’m on a roll 
, palomino, etc, in warmbloods having been mentioned, I’ve always wondered if the Hannoverian stallion Alabaster must carry a dilute gene, because I’ve seen a palomino stallion by him [not sure of dam colour], and his licensed son Alabastro is a very light livery chestnut with flaxen mane and tail [he’s produced a lot of palominos and palominoesque chestnuts, too], and we’ve got a mare by Alabaster [Allegria, on Team Global mare page] whose that same light, livery chestnut as well. Any insight would be great. If anyone is worried me mentioning the particular names is advertising, happy to remove them if they let me know, but it was impossible to get an opinion on what their colours actually are without the names.
Kelly you can not really tell from pictures. To be sure a gen test for dilute or cream gene has to be taken.
Alabaster can not be a palomino, because it needs a cream/dilute gene to produces that and there is no colors such as palomino, cremello etc. allowed in hanvoerian breedings. There were a few palomino mares in the marebook in the 80ies, but the hanoverians actually “banned” them.
Alabstro can not have produced palominos unless crossed with a mare that carries that gene. his white tail is not a prove for him being palomino. White tails in chestnuts can happen without crem gene.
It is very simple and no secret to it. You need the genes !!! A palomino does not just happen.
[QUOTE=Kelly G;2231092]
Dazedandconfused, you must have missed my second post, where I clarified that our colt is by Dornik B, and that the line he and FS Don’t Worry come from produces this repeatedly. Yes, as I mentioned in the second post, I realise that this means Dornik, Don’t Worry, and many others from this line are not true chestnuts at all. It’s interesting what you mentioned about dun and buckskin being two seperate colours. Now, don’t get me wrong, I don’t doubt what you’re saying for a second, but I think the reason so many of us assume them to be the same colour is because there have over the years been lord knows how many books that described them as the same, so I for one never thought to doubt that they were. If, as you say, they’re different colours, then please make a point of letting others like me know about it if you can, because I’ll bet there are lots who don’t know. :winkgrin:
Kelly.
PS. I’d actually be really grateful if anyone who’s an expert on colours would have a look at the colt I’ve been referring to, Dornik Folklore, and his mum and dad, and tell me what colours they all technically are, especially the parents. We’ve also got a colt by the “buckskin?” stallion, FS Champion de Luxe and out of a chestnut mare who’s a bay according to his papers [Champion de Ville], but I’ve often wondered with him if he’s actually a very dark “buckskin”, too. They’re both listed on the stallion page of our Team Global website, if anyone would like to have a look and clarify the colour thing for me. Thanks in advance, if anyone does. :winkgrin:
Actually, while I’m on a roll , palomino, etc, in warmbloods having been mentioned, I’ve always wondered if the Hannoverian stallion Alabaster must carry a dilute gene, because I’ve seen a palomino stallion by him [not sure of dam colour], and his licensed son Alabastro is a very light livery chestnut with flaxen mane and tail [he’s produced a lot of palominos and palominoesque chestnuts, too], and we’ve got a mare by Alabaster [Allegria, on Team Global mare page] whose that same light, livery chestnut as well. Any insight would be great. If anyone is worried me mentioning the particular names is advertising, happy to remove them if they let me know, but it was impossible to get an opinion on what their colours actually are without the names.[/QUOTE]
I realize that - I was writing my post when you posted him being an FS Don’t Worry.
Duns and buckskins are definitely different colors.
Dun gene + bay = bay dun (commonly called just “dun”)
Dilute gene + bay = buckskin
Dun gene + chestnut = red dun
Dilute gene + chestnut = palomino
Dun gene + black = grulla/grullo (sometimes-but rarely- called black dun)
Dilute gene + black = smokey black
They are ‘additions’ to a base color and are completely different and separate from each other (but can occur together, i.e. dunskin). Same goes for grey, roan, champagne, etc.
Re: Dornik Folklore. It’s very hard to tell the difference between bay dun and buckskin from just photos. However, we can take a look at his pedigree (if there’s still a question of “Is he buckskin?” or “Is he dun?” then you should have him tested). Keep in mind what I said before - it is dominant. You must have one parent with a dun gene (or a dilute color, if he is buckskin) for the offspring to be that color. In addition, if the horse has a dilute gene or a dun gene, he WILL display it. He cannot carry it but not display it (although it does on occasion take some knowledge to tell the difference in the case of a lot of duns), so it can’t ‘skip generations’.
Dornik Folklore - either buckskin or dun.
Sire - Dornik B. By a Palomino (Chestnut x Palomino parents), out of a Chestnut mare. (Chestnut x Chestnut parents). He does not appear to be a misregistered red dun. Dornik B does not have a dilute gene - only chestnut. He cannot contribute a dilute gene.
Dam - Can’t find much information on her. Can I assume the mare is the one shown in the photos (and not an embryo transfer mare)? She looks definitely bay to me. If she is the dam, she cannot contribute any dilute or dun genes to her offspring.
He certainly appears to be either buckskin or dun but pictures can be deceiving. Via his genetics, he cannot be buckskin or dun, and if he tests as being either one, I would be calling his breeders ASAP as well as have a DNA typing done. Because someone got out and bred his mom - that was not Dornik B, if he is in fact a buckskin or dun.
Thanks Alexandra! I obviously wasn’t wondering if he was palomino. I just wondered if, as I’d been told is the case with the “chestnut” Dornik and Don’t Worry are, it was possible Alabaster carries a dilute gene [or some different gene, if there is one?], as well, explaining the particular types of chestnuts and abundance of palominos the line seems to throw. I knew I was at risk of it just being a dumb question, but I figured it was worth the risk in the hope of learning more about it. The particular chestnut that Alabastro and Allegria, etc, are just seem so distinct from a “normal” chestnut that I wondered if there must be some sort of dilute gene or something involved. If not, then I guess it’s just a “quirk of nature” type colour, but I’ve wondered for a long time, so I siezed the opportunity to ask.
Kelly.
Dazedandconfused, we posted at pretty much the same time again :D. The thing with Dornik Folklore’s pedigree is that I’ve looked into both sides pretty thoroughly in that respect. His dam is bay [yes, that’s her in the photos], and his maternal grand dam is liver chestnut [his damsire, Folklore, by the way, is the same bay as his dam]. Both mares have been bred exclusively to either Dornik B or Golden Dancer [who is, of course, palomino] for a number of years [the mares are travelled 4 hours each year to get to the stud, where they are bred only through natural service before returning home], producing apparent duns, palominos and “washed out” looking chestnuts, for the most part. Even though this is a pretty well-known and successful breeder we bought him off, I was obviously a bit suspicious of Folklore’s parentage at first, but then I’ve looked into other lines related to Dornik B, including Don’t Worry, and I’ve seen and been told about many other cases of the same type of thing apparently happening in this line. And, not that it means too much anyway from what’s been said, I guess, but Dornik Folklore’s listed as falbe on his papers, which I’m told translates to buckskin [apologies if that’s not right]. Can he possibly be a very, very light bay, instead, maybe, along with some of the other ponies from this line? I don’t know, but it’s easy enough to brush it off and say Folklore must be sired by a different stallion, other than Dornik, and I’d accept that likelihood if he wasn’t only one of quite a lot of examples of this I’ve been told about and/or seen from this particular line, bred by a variety of different people.
Another question, did I understand properly in one of the posts above that you can’t get a palomino if one or the other parent carries a black or bay gene? Is that right? If so, doesn’t a liver chestnut carry a black gene? Sorry, showing my ignorance again :no: :yes: !
Kelly.
The “fake” Palomino (light, almost creamy chestnut with flaxen mane and tail) is hereditary obviously. so you would see it pop up in certain lines, and very attractive it is too :winkgrin: - it’s still chestnut - no dilute gene.
Look at Haflingers. They are absolutely and definately chestnut but you could sometimes SWEAR you’re looking at a Palomino with some of them…
Palomino is both common and “fashionable” in German Riding Pony breeding but both the stallions mentioned above are, I am 99.9% sure, not carrying a dilute. However they are bred often to dilute mares which is where the dilute comes in with the offspring.
Unfortunately the average german breeder is not that knowledgable on colour genetics so foals may sometimes be misidentified or ancesters may have been misidentified. Colour means little to the Germans, standard bay / black / grey and chestnut is fine by them, Palomino is great for the Barbie factor … but it’s not something they think about too much as long as the pony is correct, moves well and attracts buyers…
It is entirely possible for the dilute to hide for a generation in a “funny shade of bay that is really a buckskin” or a “black” that is really a smokey, hence the occasional surprise foal.
But if you look at Don’t Worry - he is as chestnut as chestnut can be, I am not really sure how he could (looking at him) be anything other than chestnut
http://www.ferienhof-stuecker.de/contents/hengste/dont_worry.html
Dornik B had a lot of palomino offspring but the ones I have just found in a quick google search were out of either clearly Palomino dams, or dams whose colour was not recorded but whose sires were Palominos. I doubt there is a dun gene in there as I’m not sure where it should have come from or where it is hiding in his offspring. Would be interesting to have him tested, his body colour “could” be palomino (odd shade of) but his mane and tail indicate otherwise? but look at the “true” / “obvious” palominos on the same page - next to them he certainly looks chestnut.
http://www.gestuet-boenniger.de/docs/deckhengste.htm
One problem when looking at especially pony pedigrees is that the Germans have borrowed heavily from UK blood (English Riding Ponies and Welsh mainly) and gboth the german and the UK english language used to only have one word that was used for both buckskin and dun (Dun in the UK and Falbe in Germany) so just looking at pedigrees won’t tell us whether the horse was buckskin, dun - or possibly something different alltogether …
A really neat little “toy” and educational too can be found here :
