What color parents make a palamino?

[Black_Forest]

[QUOTE=Kelly G;2231172]
Another question, did I understand properly in one of the posts above that you can’t get a palomino if one or the other parent carries a black or bay gene? Is that right? If so, doesn’t a liver chestnut carry a black gene? Sorry, showing my ignorance again :no: :yes: !
Kelly.[/QUOTE]

No, that is not correct.

A palomino can actually be homozygous for Agouti -which is the gene that makes a black horse into a bay. Because Agouti does not act on red (and Palomino is red plus a single cream dilute) Agouti (Bay) can be there in any Palomino - it just doesn’t show.

You can get a palomino out of two Buckskins ( a Buckskin is a black horse with one or two Agouti genes which turnthe black into bay, plus one cream dilute gene which turns the bay into a buckskin) for example, or one black horse (black without Agouti) and a Palomino, or a Perlino (black horse plus one or two Agouti plus two cream dilute genes)

What ALWAYS has to be present in any Palomino’s parents (ie BOTH of them) is a single (or two) CHESTNUT gene, PLUS one of the parents must carry and pass on a cream dilute gene.

A Palomino is a red horse with one cream dilute gene. So both parents must have carried and passed on (but not necessarily have BEEN) chestnut genes, and ONE parent must have contricuted a dilute gene

It’S easiest if you look at it this way:

A horse is ALWAYS one of only two basic colours. It is either red, or it is black. EVERYTHING else is just genes that act on those basic two colours. It starts to make more sense once you look at it that way …

I HOPE :winkgrin:

Edited to add - no a liver chestnut does not carry a black gene, a liver chestnut is a red horse with a modifier which turns the red into dark red (sooty)

My favourite colour in the world is deep dark liver chestnut (the darker the better) with flaxen / blonde mane and tail. YUM !

[camohn]

In short: chestnut carries 2 red genes as red is recessive to black. To get a palomino you need a red based horse with a creme gene modifyer to bleach out the red. You CAN get a chestnut foal from bay or black parents if they are black carrying a recessive red gene. If a horse is homozygous for black (the base color of both black and bay) it can ONLY contribute a black gene which will always mask red expression…even if bred to a chestnut. If the horse has a black AND a red the horse will look black but have a red gene it could possibly contribute to the gene pool. For example our stallion was bay. The mare he was bred to is bay. The foal came out chestnut. That tells us that both parents HAVE to be black carrying a recessive red.

[ljshorses]

Don’t forget a dilute parent crossed with a bay can produce a palomino (I got one) the bay parent obviously carried the chestnut gene which was given to the resulting foal

and a buckskin crossed with a chestnut can produce a palomino (also had that happen)

[Daventry]

The following scenario with our 2006 Section B colt is a question I always wanted to ask as, although I’m quite educated on the coat colors and the chances of getting what, I am clueless when it comes to greys as they are considered a color modifying but there is really no information out there on them.

Our colt is a result of a grey sire bred to a grey dam. He was born palomino but obviously turning grey. The sire is by a bay stallion and out of a grey mare. And here’s where the color comes from…the dam is out of a grey mare and by a Palomino stallion.

Every one of the dams foals has been born palomino and then turned grey and the dam herself was born palomino and turned grey. Now, our colt is still palomino looking and I’ve still got people telling me he’s going to stay that way but, according to the color charts, it’s an impossibility but the charts also don’t say anything about grey, which I’m to assume doesn’t affect the color charts at all.

We bred warmbloods and Hanoverians for over ten years and had never heard of a foal being born one color and then turning an exact opposite color. A grey foal was always born dark brown or dark grey, not palomino!

So, color experts, tell me how this happens and…does our born palomino mare turned grey out of a palomino stallion then possibly carry a dilute gene that she could truly pass on if bred to the right colored stallion? And the other question, is it worth then getting the mare and foal tested for the cream gene or am I way off?

Here’s photos of our colt…out of two grey parents.

[PineTreeFarm]

"So, color experts, tell me how this happens and…does out born palomino mare turned grey out of a palomino stallion then possibly carry a dilute gene that she could truly pass on if bred to the right colored stallion? "

No expert, but the mare is still a palomino. Grey just modifies the color, the palomino genetics are still present.

[JoZ]

Someone else will have to help you out with the grey gene behavior, but absolutely a palomino can grey, and since it does carry the creme gene, can deliver that creme gene to its offspring.

I would THINK, but I don’t know, that you might be able to breed two grey parents and NOT have a grey foal. In which case your colt might stay palomino and wouldn’t carry the grey to future generations, if any. But as I said, let someone else confirm/deny that part!

[quicksilverponies]

A foal may be born palomino and turn grey. Even if both parents were grey as they still have their base colors under the grey modifyers. So if the mare was palimino and turned grey, she still has her one dilute gene. If the stallion’s base color (before he turned grey) was chestnut, then it is entirely possible for the foal to be born palomino. And it is possible that the foal could have inherited just the chestnut gene from the sire and the creme gene from the mare and not the greying factor. So two greys can produce a non greying foal. With one grey parent, the foal has a 50% chance of turning grey -with two grey parents the chance is 75% - there is still the 25% chance of the foal staying its birth color. I hope this all makes sense?!

[Daventry]

Both the colt and the dam are for sale this year so I wonder if it is worth getting them tested for the cream gene.

Interestingly enough, the sire shows being born brown on his papers but his grey dam is out of a buckskin mare so, potentially then, the sires dam could have passed along a dilute gene. Interesting if this is how the grey color modifier works. (Nope, not possible. Just went back and checked on the history of all of the foals. He’s got two black foals out of a palomino mare so…it means he must have been born a bay).

Well, now I don’t feel so stupid asking the question as I’ve just been wondering up until now as I didn’t want to bring the question up!

OK, so is it safe to assume then that the palomino turning grey colt does indeed carry one cream gene?!? And so then, if left intact as a stallion prospect, he has the potential to produce dilutes…if the grey gene doesn’t take over?

[Erin_Pittman]

A gray parent that started out as a palomino can certainly produce a palomino. Unfortunately, there is no test, yet, for the gray gene. However, it is dominant - which means that in order for a foal to be gray, one of it’s parent’s must be gray. If both parents are gray, then the chances are higher of getting a gray foal, but if one of the parents happens to be homozygous gray, then you will always have a gray foal. No real way to know for certain if the mare is homozygous gray, but it sounds likely if she’s always had foals that turned gray. The best way to think of the graying gene is to compare it to humans - if you look at a gray-haired person, you can no longer tell what color hair they had when they were younger. It just became gray over time, replacing the old color. A gray horse is just the same - it starts out a color (bay, black, chestnut, palomino, pinto, dun, whatever) and the gray gene is dominant to all those, so eventually it turns gray…

Edited to add: Here’s a photo of a known buckskin that doesn’t outwardly appear to have the creme gene (he’s been tested, though). His base color is probably a very dark bay or seal brown: California Chablis, Oldenburg Stallion - http://www.fieldstonefarm.biz/breeding_services.htm
The only reason I brought it up is because it’s possible that some of the apparently sudden appearances of palominos out of what look like undiluted parents could be explained by a horse like Chablis - he’s dark enough that most people wouldn’t think he was a buckskin, yet is and produces dilutes.

[Daventry]

Hi Erin, our mare has produced one bay foal out of a different stallion so I know she is not homozygous for the grey gene.

Unfortunately, there is no test, yet, for the gray gene.

So, does that mean I’m not able to get her tested for the cream gene?

[Black_Forest]

[QUOTE=Daventry;2231706]
Hi Erin, our mare has produced one bay foal out of a different stallion so I know she is not homozygous for the grey gene.

So, does that mean I’m not able to get her tested for the cream gene?[/QUOTE]

Yes, you can have her tested for the cream gene, there is just no point testing her for the grey gene as you already know that she has one, and has not got two of them.

Grey is in addition to whatever else is present!

Erin, I don’t want to nit-pick - but you wrote

A gray horse is just the same - it starts out a color (bay, black, chestnut, palomino, pinto, dun, whatever) and the gray gene is dominant to all those, so eventually it turns gray…

Grey is not dominant “to” ANYTHING other than “non grey” - Grey is in ADDITION to the base colour and the other modifiers, it just has the effect of wiping them out more or less. If that makes sense ?

Just as cream is not dominant “to” chestnut in the case of a Palomino, it is something that “happens to” the chestnut colour - Grey is the same, it is dominant in the sense that it is always apparent when present, but not dominant to the base colour but rather is something that HAPPENS TO the base colour

[Erin_Pittman]

nitpick away (not offended or anything)…I was just trying to put it into layman’s terms. I still think my comparison to human hair graying works…start out a color, then color disappears. I never said the horse was no longer genotypically chestnut, palomino or whatever. I’m simply talking phenotype.

[IrishKharma]

Haflinger ?

I thought ALL Haflingers were palominos?

Or just flaxen manes and tails?

[Erin_Pittman]

@IrishKharma;2231830

I thought ALL Haflingers were palominos?

Or just flaxen manes and tails?

Yep, just flaxen manes and tails. See top of the page: http://www.equinecolor.com/modifiers.html

[Black_Forest]

[QUOTE=IrishKharma;2231830]
I thought ALL Haflingers were palominos?

Or just flaxen manes and tails?[/QUOTE]

No, they are “blonde” chestnuts, but some look more Palomino than a lot of Palominos !!!

They could not be Palomino as they would have morphed into a breed of cremellos by now if they were.

That’s also the absolute proof that Fjords (Norwegians) are Dun not buckskin (in case the other characteristics were missed ) as there are no Perlinos

[Kelly_G]

I’ve actually just emailed a good friend in Germany [who has used both Dornik and Don’t Worry repeatedly] to try and get more info on whether she’s heard about the colour combinations I’ve been told about by other breeders, coming from this particular line. She knows our colt Dornik Folklore’s breeder very, very well, and our colt is actually agisted with her at the moment, too, so I’ve asked her if she can arrange for him to be DNA’d to confirm things that way. I want to point out, though, that, as someone else mentioned as well, before I spent a couple of decades away from the horse industry, it was commonly known that buckskins and duns were the same colour. I studied a lot and read many books and breed standards that said so, but now it’s common knowledge [as I found out from this thread only last night] that they’re not the same. And, regardless of what is the case with our colt [who, remember, was owned/bred by a reputable breeder, through natural service to Dornik, who as far as I know is owned by a VERY reputable breeder], we need to remember that it’s happened perhaps thousands of times in recent years alone that things we unquestionably believed to be the case are later found to be inacurate. So, I do think we should be more careful about saying what is and isn’t possible, the world is not so black and white, and we don’t know everything yet.

And, for what it’s worth, I was a successful breeder of palominos in the late 70’s/early 80’s, using my very liver chestnut stallion and my anglo-arab palomino mares. And, at the time I was seriously studied on all things colour-related with breeding them,but I was very careful not to come in on this thread yesterday touting what I knew to be the case, because I realize that what we believed was the case then can differ vastly from what has been proven since, ie what’s been explained about buckskin/duns. And, I think it’s naive to think that we won’t find out about more things [including horse-colour related things] in the future, as well. We also bred very good German Shepherds for many years, and one day we had a black and tan bitch throw a couple of red on tan pups. That bloodline continued to throw that colour occasionally, and when we started to breed with a bitch who was that colour herself, the colour became dominant. The Australian standard for shepherds, and many many breeders in Aus, told us that there must be outside blood to cause the colour, or else it was impossible. And, only many years later were we told about a very rare colour called mahogany in shepherds, and that that was what colour our dogs were. Now, I haven’t bred any shepherds for over a decade [though we still have two of our “mahogany” ones], and haven’t bred them commercially for more than two, so I don’t know of any recent advancements with them, either. I don’t keep up to date on it any more. But, I’m happy to accept that our shepherds are probably mahogany, because there was little to no chance of there being any other explanation. For those who know what I’m referring to, remember that despite many, many years of scientific evidence proving otherwise, Lindy Chaimberlain’s baby WAS killed by a dingo!

As far as I’ve been told, neither Dornik nor Don’t Worry have been tested for a dilute gene, and given some of the progeny I’ve seen and been told about, I’m happy to remain open to the possibility they carry one, at least until/unless it’s confirmed either way scientifically. I’m also happy to stay open to the other possibility that our colt is perhaps a very light bay, rather than a buckskin [as well as that our other colt [Deville] could be a dark buckskin or something else], and I’ll be curious and happy to confirm what the facts are once I have them, whatever they may be. Finally, the particular shade of chestnut I mentioned earlier [Alabastro and Allegria, and others I’ve seen], I believe personally that it will eventually be found to be different in some way genetically from typical chestnuts, because it’s not just lighter, it’s DIFFERENT. It’s okay to be open to the possibility that we may not know it all yet, because that keeps being proven to be the case in just about everything.:winkgrin: :winkgrin: :winkgrin:
Kelly.

[hc49004]

ok we have a cremello stallion whos parents are both grey. will he throw grey foals??

[darkmoonlady]

[QUOTE=Black Forest;2232052]
No, they are “blonde” chestnuts, but some look more Palomino than a lot of Palominos !!!

They could not be Palomino as they would have morphed into a breed of cremellos by now if they were.

That’s also the absolute proof that Fjords (Norwegians) are Dun not buckskin (in case the other characteristics were missed ) as there are no Perlinos[/QUOTE]

I found this on the Fjord horse registry

"Uls dun came in disrepute because at the time, no one knew how the different colors were inherited. So uls dun was bred to uls dun, and that resulted some times in white and walleyed foals. "

That sounds at least to me to be an occurance of the dilute gene.

[quicksilverponies]

to HC42004

No. If your stallion has not greyed, he will not throw grey foals. The only way he will throw a grey foal is if he is bred to a grey mare and then the chance of the foal being grey is still only 50%. A horse/pony must be grey to pass along the grey modifyer.

[Kelly_G]

Okay, just got it from the very best authority I personally know of on this subject that both Dornik B and FS Don’t Worry are widely known among GRP breeders to be red duns, although they’re both registered as chestnuts. I’ve been assured that both have actually produced many, many duns out of black, bay, and chestnut mares, including, of course our boy, Dornik Folklore, etc. Apologies for my ignorance on the subject, but of course prior to yesterday, I was just one of the old-timers who’d been taught dun and buckskin were one and the same, and had been told it was a dilute gene Dornik and Don’t Worry carried, whereas now the lightbulb’s going on!
Kelly.