[QUOTE=Kelly G;2234070]
Okay, just got it from the very best authority I personally know of on this subject that both Dornik B and FS Don’t Worry are widely known to be red duns, although they are both registered as chestnuts. I’ve been assured that both have actually produced many, many duns out of black, bay, and chestnut mares, including, of course our boy, Dornik Folklore. 
Kelly.[/QUOTE]
Red Duns or Buckskins? DUN gene or Cream dilute?
They’re red duns! I’d been told they were dilute [buckskin, I guess] by someone else, who I can only assume [like me before I got “wiser”, just yesterday :D] thought dun and buckskin were the same [ie.dilute], but, no, they’re definitively red duns [she says cleverly with her newly found wisdom :lol:].
Kelly.
[QUOTE=Kelly G;2234076]
They’re red duns! I’d been told they were dilute [buckskin, I guess] by someone else, who I can only assume [like me before I got “wiser”, just yesterday :D] thought dun and buckskin were the same [ie.dilute], but, no, they’re definitively red duns [she says cleverly with her newly found wisdom :lol:].
Kelly.[/QUOTE]
I have just looked at both pedigrees with a fine toothcombe and can’t honestly see where “DUN” could have come from - you look at the source of the dilute and both have CLEAR Palomino “sources”
I have seen a lot of offspring by both and I have never EVER seen a dun. Palomino (out of cream dilute mares) YES - Buckskin (out of cream dilute mares) YES
No dun. Does not mean there aren’t any. I haven’t seen them though.
I am absolutely intrigued now and fascinated. If you can arrange some hair to be sent to me I will have it tested at my cost (I am in Germany, postage will be minimal, and I have connections to the lab so it won’t cost me much at all)
What do you think???
Edited to add:
I have just looked up about 70 offspring by both. IF they are dun I would have to expect 50 % of all their foals to be dun. I found quite a few which were registered as Palomino and buckskin, all but two (buckskins, full siblings, both out of the same “black” mare) every single Palomino or buckskin was out of a clearly cream dilute mare (from a proven cream dilute ie Buckskin/Palomino line) The rest were “normal” non dilute colours.
AGAIN - I am not saying you are wrong. It just intrigues me so it would be nice to be able to know for sure
[QUOTE=Remember Ferdinand;2231090]
YES!! There is one papered WB Palomino. I saw him in the back of a mag advertised at stud. The ad mentioned that he was either the only one, or one of the few WB palominos-I can’t remember which.[/QUOTE]
There are 100s if not thousands (more likely the latter) Palomino Warmbloods - not anywhere near as many as bay and chestnut and black but loads of them.
A friend of mine has just imported a stallion from Poland - he’s nearly 17hh and yummy - picture was taken the day after he arrived and was still really tucked up from a long journey, and is still totally unmuscled because he hasn’t done anything over the winter so this is really just to show they DO exist
http://www.colourthyme-stud.com/standingblack-large.jpg
Black Forest, I’ve sent you part of the email from my friend in a PM, I hadn’t asked her if she was okay with me posting it on the forum, so thought it was better if I did that. How in the world did you find 70 offspring by these two stallions :eek: ? I’m forever looking for offspring from them on google and yahoo, and can never find anywhere near that many…I’m seriously impressed. I don’t know what to tell you, as I said from my first post, this was all new to me when I got to know about Dornik’s/Don’t Worry’s lines and what they produce, but I didn’t doubt it, because of the particular people who’d told me, and what my friend’s told me today confirms it again. I’ll be arranging to get both of our colts [Folklore and De Ville] tested as soon as I can do it, because I’m curious about both even more now, and I’m happy to get you the results when that’s done. As to why not many of their dun offspring show up on a search, I don’t know, because as I said before I find not many of their offspring tend to show up on a search, full stop.
Anyway, cheers,
Kelly.
[QUOTE=Kelly G;2234125]
How in the world did you find 70 offspring by these two stallions :eek: ? I’m forever looking for offspring from them on google and yahoo, and can never find anywhere near that many…I’m seriously impressed. Kelly.[/QUOTE]
Don’t be impressed, try Google with the names of the stallions plus german terms such as “Hengst” “Stute” “Fohlen” etc.
Then go to http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/ and put in the stallions - bring up their pedigree then go to “reports” then “progeny” that brings up some more
You can aslo try http://pferdebilder.de and stick in the names, this often (although I haven’t tried it yet with those two) pictures of offspring of stallions
Black forrest, why don’t you ask Bönninger directly if they are/were tested and if not offer them to do have it done.
rideagoldenpony…so what color mares crossed wit your palomino stallion should produce what color babies?
Bay x Palomino = ?
Chestnut x Palomino = ?
Black Bay x Palomino = ?
[QUOTE=slantedhorse;2234257]
rideagoldenpony…so what color mares crossed wit your palomino stallion should produce what color babies?
Bay x Palomino = ?
Chestnut x Palomino = ?
Black Bay x Palomino = ?[/QUOTE]
Chestnut x palomino is easy – you have a 50% chance of palomino and a 50% chance of chestnut.
Bay x palomino gives you a wide array of color options: palomino, buckskin, chestnut, bay, black.
So far, our stallion bred to bay mares has produced a couple palominos, lots of buckskins and a couple of bays. We await the '07 foal crop to find out what he did this time!
Something else interesting in the dun or buckskin debate - if you go to either of the Buckskin registries (they also reg. Duns) they say that the difference between the 2 colors(when trying to determine color for registration) is that a dun has a dorsal stripe and a buckskin does not.
[QUOTE=JoZ;2231013]
And a bay and a chestnut cannot produce either a dun or a palomino. QUOTE]
Dont take what i say too heartily, i havent yet purchased the book but spent about an hour reading it, even though i have NO current desire to learn about breeding yet… but cant the gene be recessive in the bay which gives it a .25% of coming out in a baby? NEVERMIND, take that back… bay cant have diluted genes right?
I dont remember exactly… and now i think i will go buy that book this week… whats one more to add to the horsey library!
Just wanted to add: If you’ve seen this horse in person out in the sunlight (which I have:winkgrin:) you know immediately that he’s NOT “just” your average bay. You know he’s not bay, he doesn’t quite look buckskin, he looks like a “golden bay”. Whatever he is genetically, you know right away that his color is special and hard to categorize…and he’s AWESOME!:yes: (not just a pretty color)
Ah, Black Forrest, that makes more sense! I hadn’t read it properly last night [it was late, I was sleepy], so thought you’d found 70 photos [of offspring], so now I’m feeling slightly less inadequate, phew! Re the percentage that are/aren’t dun, I’d guess that if they’ve got the colour wrong on these two stallions it wouldn’t be surprising if they’ve got it wrong on lots of progeny and rellies, too, but without asking any body else, as it stands I must know of around 10 or more now who are, like our boy, “obvious” duns. With the testing, I’m as intrigued/curious as you are, so if I do ever get over to Germany later in the year, I wouldn’t mind a bit getting samples from our colt, and asking about doing the same with Dornik and Don’t Worry.:winkgrin:
Kelly.
PS. Hadn’t heard of pferdebilder.de before, what a handy site! I just looed up Dornik on there, he plus 3 progeny came up, really great site…
[QUOTE=Dune;2234621]
Just wanted to add: If you’ve seen this horse in person out in the sunlight (which I have:winkgrin:) you know immediately that he’s NOT “just” your average bay. You know he’s not bay, he doesn’t quite look buckskin, he looks like a “golden bay”. Whatever he is genetically, you know right away that his color is special and hard to categorize…and he’s AWESOME!:yes: (not just a pretty color);)[/QUOTE]
I don’t doubt he is buckskin… but I do doubt that the foal listed on that same page is a smoky cream. Smoky black maybe… but I’d have to see the lab test to prove smoky cream on that one.
Here is smoky cream: http://www.doubledilute.com/smokycream.htm
Here is smoky black: http://www.doubledilute.com/smokyblack.htm
[QUOTE=Kelly G;2235196]
Ah, Black Forrest, that makes more sense! I hadn’t read it properly last night [it was late, I was sleepy], so thought you’d found 70 photos [of offspring], so now I’m feeling slightly less inadequate, phew! [/QUOTE]
Ah yes, but I have seen a good number of their offspring in person but obviously wasn’t particularly looking for dun ones. Having said that as noone has yet shown me any true dun Welshies I am still at a complete loss where the dun would have come from as it’s not really in the German Ridng Pony either.
The cream dilute in both stallions (or rather the dilue that both stallions could have had but didn’t) comes from the same stallion in both and THAT is clearly and definately a Palomino no question about it. So the “dun” - if it is there, must have come from somewhere else and I just can’t - no matter how I look at the pedigrees and the different sets of progenies from within these pedigrees, find anything that hints at dun 
And no I am not generally obsssive, I’m just a colour genetics freak :winkgrin:
Black Forest, the reason my friend said they must be dun and not buckskin was because while she’d seen and had plenty of “dun” offspring by both of them from non-dilute/dun mares, she’d never seen palominos by either of them from non-dilutes, and nor had anyone she knows, so they’ve concluded it’s got to be dun, not buckskin [she explained this elsewhere in the email]. But, I guess it could go either way, after all??? I don’t think they’ve [DB & DW] ever been tested, by the sounds of it. People just know what they know based on all the DB & DW offspring born that way, and of course they’ve both apparently got the dorsal stripe, etc. Look, the only bit I know for sure is that they keep producing duns/buckskins out of non-dilutes owned by lots of high profile GRP breeders including my friend, so there’s no question they’re doing it, as I said earlier…Exact genetics of it, I have no clue, and I guess nobody does till/unless they’re tested, but I know they do it, and obviously so do lots of other people. If you do find anything concrete, yourself, please let me know 'cos obviously I’m really curious, too. And I don’t have any problem at all with you being obsessive about it, because I find it really interesting…:winkgrin:
Kelly.
Is there a test available now for the Dun gene? I know there is for the Ccr (creme) gene, but haven’t heard about dun. The stallions in question don’t look like red duns, but it’s hard to tell from the photos I’ve seen so far.
[QUOTE=Black Forest;2231181]
A really neat little “toy” and educational too can be found here :
http://www.horsetesting.com/CCalculator1.asp[/QUOTE]
That IS really neat!!
I found this euro dressage page online that shows horses related to the one in question about two thirds down the page. I will say that one or two do look like red duns…
http://www.eurodressage.com/reports/shows/2006/06bundes/rep_day4-photo.html
Why are there so few buckskin warmbloods?
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