There are probably just as many buckskin warmbloods as palomino, but many I’ve seen seem to carry the smutty gene and go very dark. So they get labeled as bays. It isn’t until they throw a dilute foal that it gets much notice.
[QUOTE=Oakstable;2236169]
Why are there so few buckskin warmbloods?[/QUOTE]
There are, again, quite a few, but because Palomino at present appears to be a bit more popular people breed “for Palomino” rather than for Buckskin, it is also much easier to aim for a Palomino as you will not ever get a buckskin when crossing chestnut to Palomino / Cremello - whereas you may still end up with a Palomino when you cross two Buckskins.
Personally I think both is beautiful!
[QUOTE=Erin Petersen;2235591]
Is there a test available now for the Dun gene? I know there is for the Ccr (creme) gene, but haven’t heard about dun. The stallions in question don’t look like red duns, but it’s hard to tell from the photos I’ve seen so far.[/QUOTE]
As I said, I have seen a good number of their offspring in person and never NOTICED Dun, but then I would not have been LOOKING for dun (if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, you don’t go looking for a chicken) so that doesn’t mean anything really. Amongst the ones I have seen there was’t one that jumped up at me screaming “Look, I’m unusual in colour” which I would have noticed because I’m so into coat colours. That does not mean there weren’t any duns - just none that were obvious enough for me to take much notice.
Yesterday I was still living in the hope that there was now a test for dun but it would appear there isn’t yet 
Re all three colours [Palominos, Buckskins and Duns], I agree with you, Black Forest. I think they’re just lurvly !!! Disappointing to hear there’s no test for duns yet, by the way. That makes it a bit frustrating. :winkgrin:
Kelly.
[QUOTE=darkmoonlady;2236161]
I found this euro dressage page online that shows horses related to the one in question about two thirds down the page. I will say that one or two do look like red duns…
http://www.eurodressage.com/reports/shows/2006/06bundes/rep_day4-photo.html[/QUOTE]
Yes might be the case, but there is no info on the color of the dams !!!
[QUOTE=alexandra;2236687]
Yes might be the case, but there is no info on the color of the dams !!![/QUOTE]
That’s true, the frustrating thing is that the Welsh (on which a big percentage of German Riding Pony blood is based) don’t contribute DUN. Nor do the TBs (which are found in the pedigrees) . Nor does the smidgeon of Warmblood. So if there IS dun where the hell did it come from? THAT is what is bugging me at this stage - not whether someone is dun or isn’t dun, but where the heck did this dun gene sneak in? Did a Fjord jump a fence many generations back? Is there a Dülmer Wild Horse somewhere in there? Who is lurking where in these pedigrees to have added the dun?
[QUOTE=Kelly G;2236679]
Re all three colours [Palominos, Buckskins and Duns], I agree with you, Black Forest. I think they’re just lurvly !!! Disappointing to hear there’s no test for duns yet, by the way. That makes it a bit frustrating. :winkgrin:
Kelly.[/QUOTE]
Isn’t it just… I wated to be sure before answering your pm so made a couple of calls this morning and there is currently no test for dun but they are working on it.
[QUOTE=Black Forest;2236690]
That’s true, the frustrating thing is that the Welsh (on which a big percentage of German Riding Pony blood is based) don’t contribute DUN. Nor do the TBs (which are found in the pedigrees) . Nor does the smidgeon of Warmblood. So if there IS dun where the hell did it come from? THAT is what is bugging me at this stage - not whether someone is dun or isn’t dun, but where the heck did this dun gene sneak in? Did a Fjord jump a fence many generations back? Is there a Dülmer Wild Horse somewhere in there? Who is lurking where in these pedigrees to have added the dun?[/QUOTE]
Well I guess it is as it is and somewhere somebody bred his mare to stallion xyz and that breeding was not recorded the way it was. Either a Fjord or Dülmen pony jumped the fence or was used instead of the original planned breeding. Are you old enough to remember the fuss with Grannus ?
[QUOTE=alexandra;2236692]
. Are you old enough to remember the fuss with Grannus ?[/QUOTE]
Old enough yes, but at the time not sufficiently into breeding to take notice 
What fuss? Had a Google to no avail and am now curious! 
[QUOTE=scottishgirl;2236997]
What fuss? Had a Google to no avail and am now curious! [/QUOTE]
I’ll let Alexandra explain as I only remember it most scetchily…
If what little memory I have got it was a bit of a matter of “Mummy’s Baby ! - Daddies …? Maybe!”
Re Dornik B and Don’t Worry, just had a quick glance back via Derano Gold in their pedigree on allbreeds, and assuming it’s right, Derano goes back to some draught and part-arab blood [specifically, Arabian x Brittish Riding Pony], and also just noticed they’ve got at least two crosses to Dandy, a light chestnut with a flaxen mane/tail who carries both arab and connemara blood. Perhaps one of those breeds [arab, draught, BRP or connemara] might explain it? Another thought, the part-arab is Valentino’s dam Bubbles, and like so many GRPs both Dornik and Don’t Worry have many crosses to Valentino [these two each have at least four], so [as always, forgive my colour ignorance but] with that number of crosses to him, would his line be the ideal place to start to look for some hidden dun, especially with an arab x BRP dam [I don’t know if dun is recorded in BRPs, is it?] ? Just a few things that came to mind, don’t know if they’ll help. :winkgrin:
Kelly.
PS. I hadn’t heard about the question over the parentage of Grannus, either…
Nice Detective Work, Kelly but - no dilute AT ALL in Arab (neither dun nor cream)
No dun in Connemara, they are buckskin according to those who have spent many years searching for a “true” dun Connemara. (sigh)
British Riding Pony POSSIBLY but again they were developed from Welsh (no dun) and small TB stock (no dun in TBs) mainly, and the British Riding Pony lines that are used extensively in German Riding Pony lines (the Oakley lines with Oakley Bubbling Spring / Oakley Bubbling Up etc etc amongst others) are bay - these Ponies (British Riding ponies) were bred with the showring (UK style Pony Showing - a different world if ever I have seen one) and there they love(d) rich bays, tolerate(d) a grey from time to time and won’t / didn’t cringe sooooo much over a chestnut.
But at the time when the Bitish Riding Pony blood was introduced to the German Riding Pony there wouldn’t have been much in terms of Duns used for breeding British Riding Ponies, it just wasn’t the “done thing” then (which doesn’t mean there wasn’t one from time to time.
There are no LOGICAL breeds that could contribute the dun gene - the closest I could guess might be the Dülmer Wild Horse where Dun certainly does exist - everything else with Dun would just so absolutely have been “the wrong type” - Icelandic (not acceptable - gaited) or Fjord/Norwegian (again not acceptable) or shetland (hardly likely) … it’s really bugging me.
Kelly your colt very clearly looks to be a dun and absolutely lovely he is too. And he’d be no more or less lovely if he wasn’t dun.
But that just makes the whole thing even more wretched. There is a lovely dun with a presumably proven pedigree and no-one knows where the colour comes from.
Just a curious question, but Dartmoor and New Forrest, is there dun in those breeds? I know that I’ve seen quite a few New Forrest ponies in GRP breeding, although I didn’t see it in the pedigrees of these two, but perhaps it’s there further back. I’ll ask my friend if she can find out the origin of the dun in the Dornik/Don’t Worry lines, she didn’t mention it, but it wouldn’t surprise me if she either knows or can find out. :winkgrin:
Cheers,
Kelly.
PS. Thanks for the nice words re Folklore…
Here is a bit of interesting info…
In the book 100 Glorious Years, by Dr. Wynne Davies, historian of the Welsh breeds, he mentions in passing DUN (true dun with barring, etc.) Welsh Ponies towards the beginning of his book.
True dun is not thought to exist at all in the Welsh, however, there is Dr. Wynne’s mention of it in his book, and also, several years ago, a woman here in the US sent me photos of Section A Welsh Ponies that were clearly dun – complete with dorsal stripes and leg barring. Now, whatever happened to those ponies, I have no idea. Nor do I know what colors they were registered as.
All of that being said, I have been told repeatedly that there is NO true dun within the Welsh – and have certainly never heard of, or seen any, modern day true dun Welsh Ponies.
Rideagoldenpony, I sent you a PM. :winkgrin: (sorry for the minor hijack)
[QUOTE=Kelly G;2238528]
Just a curious question, but Dartmoor and New Forrest, is there dun in those breeds? I know that I’ve seen quite a few New Forrest ponies in GRP breeding, although I didn’t see it in the pedigrees of these two, but perhaps it’s there further back. …[/QUOTE]
Well, both the Dartmoor and the New Forest Ponies run (ran) free so there is no way to avoid “odd” things popping up at regular intervals. People have been known to dump their unwanted ponies amongst the herds, or just using the land as “free” grazing, so just about anything is possible.
The thing is I was looking back and back in the pedigrees and couldn’t find any of it - also dun is a dominant gene and can’t “hide” unseen for generations (although of course it could have travelled down chestnut lines and be misidentified as plain chestnut rather than chestnut dun.)
What still bothers me is the fact that there is clear CREAM dilute in both stallions lines via the same stallion. That stallion is as Palomino as Palomino can be.
The other (outside) chance is that often buckskin foals look like dun, with what looks like a dorsal stripe (but is countershading) and leg barring - but this dissapears over the years. So I’d be tempted to invest the € 20 it costs in Germany to have Folklore tested for cream dilute. If he hasn’t got cream dilute he is dun. If he HAS got cream dilute he could STILL be dun obviously. But this would still not explain where either has actually come from.
A lot of Grannus offspring on paper was not by Grannus.
A lot of horses were than DNA-ed.
It must have been discovered some 15 - 20 years ago.
Ah! So, that’s what it was about! There was a story heard here in Australia that something like that had happened with one of Klatte’s stallions [some of the Klatte family have lived here in Aus for many years], but I never heard what it was all about, obviously it was about Grannus…
Kelly.
Alexandra wasn’t there also the case of a stallion going for his approval and later turning out to be a totally different stallion? Big breeder with huge numbers of colts running on the “Hengstweide” (large fields where colts grow up in bachelor herds) and the owner grabbed out what he thought was two year old XYZ - and it only turned out a good while later that XYZ was actually ABC … 
Again I ca’t remember the details but that would have been about 10 or so years ago, maybe slightly earlier
