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What color parents make a palamino?

Sport Horse Breeding
#81

[QUOTE=Black Forest;2239292]
Alexandra wasn’t there also the case of a stallion going for his approval and later turning out to be a totally different stallion? Big breeder with huge numbers of colts running on the “Hengstweide” (large fields where colts grow up in bachelor herds) and the owner grabbed out what he thought was two year old XYZ - and it only turned out a good while later that XYZ was actually ABC … :smiley:

Again I ca’t remember the details but that would have been about 10 or so years ago, maybe slightly earlier[/QUOTE]

I remember something like that, but do not remember that that colt actually went to the approvals. Or wait: that happened only a few years ago, right ?

And one of the Klatte brothers still lives in AUS, I believe - doen’t he ?

#82

Yep, he does. Ulrich Klatte lives in Queensland, in North Eastern Australia, and for many, many years he’s owned and run one of the most successful breeding farms in the country, Belcam. Actually, the Klatte “dynasty” makes up a pretty big part of our warmblood breeding industry here in Australia. We have Ulrich and Belcam in Queensland, and his ex-wife Belinda with Belcam International here in Victoria, along with Belinda’s other ex-husband Axel Renz, who has Bloomfield Farms. Bloomfield Farms recently brought across to Australia on a two year lease a well-known young sire from Schockemoehle’s, who’s been kept pretty busy since he arrived in November, with what seems like half the mares in the country being bred to him this season. :smiley:
Kelly.

#83

A cremello bred to a chestbut will always produce a palomino. If you breed a chestnut to something that is homozygous for black, you have good chances of getting a palomino. Chestnut bred to any other color, including palomino will result in about a 15% chance of getting a palomino. Good Luck!

#84

Sorry, but that is incorrect. The first sentence is true: breeding chestnute to cremello gives you 100% chance of palomino.
If you breed a chestnut (ee) to a homozygous black (EE) you will always end up with black (Ee) because black is the dominant allele at that location. A horse gets one allele from one parent and one from another - so each egg or sperm has either e (chestnut) or E (black). Your chances of palomino are zero.

Chestnut bred to any other color, can lead to just about anything - it depends on what that other color is! BUT, the ONLY way you can get palomino when breeding to a chestnut is if the other parent carries the creme gene (Ccr) - horses that carry the creme gene can be palomino (ee, CCcr), buckskin (E_ A_, CCcr – the underline means that the horse could be heterozygous, i.e., Ee or Aa, or homozygous EE or AA), or smoky black (E_ aa, CCcr) - they could also be double dilutes with two creme genes (CcrCcr) such as cremellos, perlinos and smoky cremes. I highly recommend you check out this website: http://www.equinecolor.com - for more information on creme gene (palominos, buckskins, smoky blacks and the double dilutes), visit http://www.doubledilute.com/cremecolors.htm[URL=“http://www.doubledilute.com”]
Black Forest posted a really good color calculator eariler in the thread - it’s useful for coming up with percent chances when breeding - but only if you know some of the genetic makeup of your horse.

#85

[QUOTE=Chazdookiesally;2240796]
A cremello bred to a chestbut will always produce a palomino. If you breed a chestnut to something that is homozygous for black, you have good chances of getting a palomino. Chestnut bred to any other color, including palomino will result in about a 15% chance of getting a palomino. Good Luck![/QUOTE]

Oh dear oh dear oh dear… now where on earth did you get all that from? :eek:

That’s about as wrong as it can get, the only bit that is correct is that a cremello bred to a chestnut will always produce a Palomino. The rest is absolute nonsense

#86

[QUOTE=Kelly G;2231033]
Yes, I’m told it’s the sireline that carries the dilute [correction, dun] gene [don’t know about the damline]. The colt is by the stallion Dornik B, who is a pale chestnut, but very definitely a chestnut to look at. He comes from the same line as the stallion FS Don’t Worry, who is also a similar light chestnut, and both stallions [and obviously other horses in the line] have a reputation for producing “duns” from [seemingly?] non-dilute mares. I’d never seen that before this bloodline, so I’ve found it a bit intriguing. :slight_smile:
Kelly.[/QUOTE]

I’d have to see pictures of the “duns” backs but they can’t come from the sire line in either case because they are absolutely chestnut. At least one parent must be dun to produce a dun. And the one picture I found of a “dun” offspring of FS DW over here is a bay with no signs of dun factor. Although the photos are TINY. Hello, if you are advertising stallions at stud or horses for sale make every photo clickable to a BIG photo. Just a customer suggestion! The photos at that show site could be red dun (what color are their dams?) but could just as easily be light chestnut. I see no dun factor on them ither.

#87

Summerhorse, you’ve obviously missed all the fun over the past few days! :smiley: Dornik B and Don’t Worry have been the subject of some intense debate and research throughout this thread. They have poor Black Forest almost needing tranquilizers, because as yet there’s no sign of where a dun gene might have come from, and of course they certainly don’t look buckskin. But, they each have a significant number of reported dun or buckskin progeny out of non-dilute mares, including ours of course, and a good number of them bred by some of Germany’s most respected GRP breeders. One of those breeders, a good friend of mine, assures that both stallions are considered to be red duns, with dorsal stripes, etc. But, because they haven’t been tested for the dun gene [and apparently can’t], there’s still some question over the dun/buckskin side of it. We’ll be getting our boy tested for a dilute gene as soon as we can, to try and narrow down the possibilities, but unless there’s a serious conspiracy going on among a large sector of the GRP community :winkgrin: , they’ve got to be one or the other. :smiley:
Kelly.

#88

They couldn’t be roan could they? Hard to tell from the pics but it is a thought…

#89

the easiest way we find to gaurantee (totally fool proof) buckskin foals is to breed with a homozygous bay mare/stallion…(ie a mare that is homozygous black and homozygous agouti)…to any double dilute mare/stallion…crem or perl. The homozygous black cancels out any chance of chestnut/pally
the homozygous agouti cancels out any chance of smokey black
and the double dilute gaurantees the cream dilution
QED!!

#90

The site I looked at (the show report one), those are definitely not roans. I don’t think they are duns either, since they are light in colour if they were dun, the dun characteristics should show up fairly easily. Also their legs would be darker than their body colour. They look like a lovely shade of golden chestnut. :yes:

#91

[QUOTE=darkmoonlady;2241124]
They couldn’t be roan could they? Hard to tell from the pics but it is a thought…[/QUOTE]

:eek: aaaaaarrrrrggghhhhhhhhh :wink:

(visions of the whole process again, looking for roan this time) :lol:

No, they can’t be roan, nothing to point at roan at all.

#92

[QUOTE=jvanrens;2241259]

The site I looked at (the show report one), those are definitely not roans. I don’t think they are duns either, since they are light in colour if they were dun, the dun characteristics should show up fairly easily. Also their legs would be darker than their body colour. They look like a lovely shade of golden chestnut. :yes:
![/QUOTE]

BUT Kelly’s colt looks like he COULD definately be dun. And the dam does definately NOT look dun… That dun HAS to have come from somewhere.

I see a body colour that looks like it should/could be dun… and I see defined leg barring (I KNOW they can occur in foals of other non dun colours but this defined?) I THINK I see a dun foal

Or am I seeing a foal with a foalcoat that is pretending to be dun? http://www.gess.eu.com/stallions/globalstallions/dornikfolklore.html

I think I need another cup of coffee - I don’t know what I’m seeing any more. OTHER THAN A BEAUTIFUL COLT - totally regardless of what colour he is, and I’m sure Kelly did ot buy him because of his colour.

And jvanrens - TWO sets of .exe adverts in one small post are too many. TWO too many…

#93

Aagh, Black Forest, if you do need to go out and invest in one of those funky white coats over all of this, I think it better be my shout :yes: . And, if I ever get another funny coloured colt again, I promise I’ll PM you and ask you all about it ;). :winkgrin:
Kelly.

#94

Well I heard that if you feed a bay horse enough yellow peeps they will TURN palomino. You feed your horse the new green ones for oil spots.:winkgrin: :winkgrin:

#95

I was commenting on the ponies on one website Black Forest, not Kelly’s site. That very cute foal looks like he’s got strong countershading to me. I’ve seen that on many foals and they usually loose it with their baby fuzz. I recall many a foal on the farm I managed causing head scratching over just what the heck colour they were until that fuzz dropped. :yes: I never mentioned anything about Kelly buying him because of his colour!? :confused: I think you definitely need another coffee.

And jvanrens - TWO sets of .exe adverts in one small post are too many. TWO too many…

Holy Crap! Where the HE double hockey sticks did those things come from??? HELP!!! I didn’t put them there, honest!

#96

[QUOTE=jvanrens;2241898]
I never mentioned anything about Kelly buying him because of his colour!? :confused: [/QUOTE]

Don’t worry, I didn’t mean to imply that you (or anyone else) said Kelly had bought him for the colour, I just felt it needed to be said as the little cutie is being disected by people around the world!

#97

Honestly, I don’t mind :slight_smile: . The colour thing with Folklore and his family is pretty odd, and it had me asking lots of questions in the begining, so it’s not surprising it does with other people, too :smiley: .
Kelly.

#98

[QUOTE=Black Forest;2241806]
BUT Kelly’s colt looks like he COULD definately be dun. And the dam does definately NOT look dun… That dun HAS to have come from somewhere.

I see a body colour that looks like it should/could be dun… and I see defined leg barring (I KNOW they can occur in foals of other non dun colours but this defined?) I THINK I see a dun foal

Or am I seeing a foal with a foalcoat that is pretending to be dun? http://www.gess.eu.com/stallions/globalstallions/dornikfolklore.html

I think I need another cup of coffee - I don’t know what I’m seeing any more. OTHER THAN A BEAUTIFUL COLT - totally regardless of what colour he is, and I’m sure Kelly did ot buy him because of his colour.

And jvanrens - TWO sets of .exe adverts in one small post are too many. TWO too many…[/QUOTE]

You’re right, dun HAS to come from mom or pop. The point is neither mom, pop nor offspring look dun! At all!

Non duns may have countershading and false dorsals. You can’t tell a thing from baby coats, they OFTEN have what appears to be dun factor striping which eventually falls out. It’s probably simply camouflage provided by nature. Until I see clear dorsal stripes on these horses and other signs of dun factor I wouldn’t get too excited about them. If there are duns out of non dun parents them quite simply one of the parents is wrong. Dun cannot hide. But many people call non duns dun just because they look golden bay or light chestnut. They MUST have a actual dorsal stripe and most duns will have some other dun factor. But just having a dorsal doesn’t necessarily make the horse a dun. MY horse has a dorsal stripe and she’s a seal brown TB. Absolutely NOT dun. It only shows up as the rest of her coat fades.

#99

Here are some pages on duns and false duns. the best page I can’t find anymore, I hope it hasn’t been taken down.

http://www.duncentralstation.com/Look-A-LikeCollages.html

http://www.duncentralstation.com/DunMarkings.html

http://www.duncentralstation.com/AdultShades.html

http://www.duncentralstation.com/WhatsDunIsDun.html

#100

My colt is palomino sired by GPS Kruggarand who is Palomino and his dam is a Chestnut Hanoverian mare.

My colt is shedding out to be a dark palomino with lepoard spots throughout his coat. Pretty cool looking.

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