GRP stallions
GRP’s FS Don’t Worry and Champion de Luxe have the dun factor. Perhaps the pictures are poor…but I have seen numerous foals by them that are without a doubt dun (many look buckskin to me).
[QUOTE=hluing;2246545]
GRP’s FS Don’t Worry and Champion de Luxe have the dun factor. Perhaps the pictures are poor…but I have seen numerous foals by them that are without a doubt dun (many look buckskin to me).[/QUOTE]
Dun and buckskin are not the same thing, they are totally separate genes/colors and the color of the mares who produced the foals must be known also. I saw some good pictures of FS Don’t Worry and see no evidence that the horse is dun. I’d love to see it if it is true but nowhere is he listed as dun nor does he look dun, he looks chestnut.
Champion de Luxe is a buckskin not a dun and I don’t know his sire and dam’s color but his dam certainly sounds like that is a palomino line. Nonetheless Not A Dun. http://www.superiorequinesires.com/stallions/fschampiondeluxe.htm
summerhorse, if you look further back through this thread, you’ll find some posts between Black Forest and myself, etc, re Dornik B and FS Don’t Worry, and our dun [or buckskin colt?] colt, Dornik Folklore. We had bought the colt from very reputable breeders who’ve used Dornik B for years, and though I was initially hesitant about his parentage ['cos, although definitely NOT a colour expert, I believed there had to be a dun [or dilute if buckskin] parent involved for him to be one or the other. But, I spoke with a few people who knew the Dornik/Don’t Worry line well, and they showed me that it was a common occurence in the line and I had no cause for concern. When the “big debate” started on this thread, though [Thanks to me and my big mouth, mentioning Folklore in the first place :D!], I contacted a VERY knowledgeable friend who has also been using both stallions for many years, and has produced many “dun” progeny from both stallions out of nun-dun [or dilute] mares.
My friend assured me that it’s pretty common knowledge that both stallions are red-dun because… [I’ve posted part of her email here] “Dornik, as well as Don’t Worry, are registered as chestnuts, but are red duns indeed. Both have primitive markings, a line on their back and a dark “face mask”. Many of their offspring are duns in all shades, but none of them has thrown any palominos [from non-dilute mares], which would be proof for a creme gene. The fact that they have these primitive markings and that they sired tons of duns prooves the dun factor, though. So really, don’t worry about that. It’s just that the sires are registered wrong”.
I hope this is helpful. 
Kelly.
[QUOTE=Kelly G;2247388]
summerhorse, if you look further back through this thread, you’ll find some posts between Black Forest and myself, etc, re Dornik B and FS Don’t Worry, and our dun [or buckskin colt?] colt, Dornik Folklore. We had bought the colt from very reputable breeders who’ve used Dornik B for years, and though I was initially hesitant about his parentage ['cos, although definitely NOT a colour expert, I believed there had to be a dun [or dilute if buckskin] parent involved for him to be one or the other. But, I spoke with a few people who knew the Dornik/Don’t Worry line well, and they showed me that it was a common occurence in the line and I had no cause for concern. When the “big debate” started on this thread, though [Thanks to me and my big mouth, mentioning Folklore in the first place :D!], I contacted a VERY knowledgeable friend who has also been using both stallions for many years, and has produced many “dun” progeny from both stallions out of nun-dun [or dilute] mares.
My friend assured me that it’s pretty common knowledge that both stallions are red-dun because… [I’ve posted part of her email here] “Dornik, as well as Don’t Worry, are registered as chestnuts, but are red duns indeed. Both have primitive markings, a line on their back and a dark “face mask”. Many of their offspring are duns in all shades, but none of them has thrown any palominos [from non-dilute mares], which would be proof for a creme gene. The fact that they have these primitive markings and that they sired tons of duns prooves the dun factor, though. So really, don’t worry about that. It’s just that the sires are registered wrong”.
I hope this is helpful.
Kelly.[/QUOTE]
That’s why I was asking about any photos available as neither of them show any dun factor in the ones online and the only dilutes in their pedigree are cream dilutes. While a horse can be both none of them appear to be. While your foal appears to have dun factor markings he’s a foal and those can disappear with age or be false markings. is there anyway anyone can get a picture of the stallion’s backs? If your mare is not a really dark buckskin there is no way your foal could be buckskin. If he IS dun he should be listed as bay dun.
[QUOTE=summerhorse;2247237]
Dun and buckskin are not the same thing, they are totally separate genes/colors and the color of the mares who produced the foals must be known also. I saw some good pictures of FS Don’t Worry and see no evidence that the horse is dun. I’d love to see it if it is true but nowhere is he listed as dun nor does he look dun, he looks chestnut.[/QUOTE]
I would definitely say that Don’t Worry is a dun. He has a clear dorsal stripe, for one thing (does not appear to just be countershading to me). There is a video on Youtube of him that shows it pretty clearly. Here is the link.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=eOSZIxAJ3-Q
You can see the dorsal stripe quite clearly during his pirouette.
Dazednconfused, you’re right, that video does show the dorsal stripe really clearly, so thanks for pointing it out. summerhorse, what I guess I don’t understand is why it matters so much if you or I have seen photos that show the dorsal stripe on these stallions, or have seen their other dun progeny. When someone like my friend [who I’ll clarify is Sabine Meiners of Gestuet Hilken] says to me [along with several other very well known German breeders] that she’s seen these stallions dozens and dozens of times, that she and everyone else who knows them personally knows they’re red dun, and that not only has she seen several of their dun progeny but she has also bred/owned several out of “non-dun” mares [and still owns two right now] I figure it’s a done deal, and I feel no need to check up on it. Don’t get me wrong, I fully respect your right [and anyone else’s] to do it, I just don’t understand why the need. Black Forest has been intensely searching for exactly where the dun gene first came into their pedigree, and I understand that completely [although, unfortunately, I’ve got a feeling that it’s going to end up being yet another red dun somewhere in the pedigree who was registered as a chestnut], because it would be interesting to know [I mean, hell, I’ve been intensely searching myself too]. But for us to be elsewhere in the world and saying “show me the proof”, when some of the most knowledgeable people in the GRP breeding industry know these stallions so well and state their colour with certainly [especially having bred a number of dun foals from them], well, I just think that’s probably plenty of proof, personally. There are probably a couple of dozen photos of Dornik on the internet, you just do a google search and type in Dornik [without the B] and they show up right away. And, though I didn’t know till recently what colour he actually was, I’ve never thought Dornik looked like an ordinary chestnut, personally, he was always a bit different [darker head, etc]. There are probably less photos of Don’t Worry online, but Dazednconfused is right, the video shows his dorsal stripe pretty clearly, and he too is that slightly odd chestnut, with the darker head, and so forth.
Kelly.
Kelly is right - this isn’t a “prove or disprove” issue -
Some of us are a bit fanatical about equine colours and colour genetics, so it’s a fascinating research project - no more, no less :lol:
At the end of the day these are two fabulous stallions who have nothing to prove in any way - and if they were lesser spotted pink shaded it wouldn’t make any difference to their competition record or the quality of their offspring.
Having said that I’d still love to know where that dun has come from 
Kelly…great post…exactly what I was thinking!
When I got into GRP’s and found out they did have dunbs and dilute colors…it was awhole new world for me:) It has been fun learning about these colors and I must confess I very mcuh want a dilute or dun for myself;) I do have three doses of FS Don’t Worry semen…so you never know! Crossing my fingers for a dun.
[QUOTE=Dazednconfused;2248572]
I would definitely say that Don’t Worry is a dun. He has a clear dorsal stripe, for one thing (does not appear to just be countershading to me). There is a video on Youtube of him that shows it pretty clearly. Here is the link.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=eOSZIxAJ3-Q
You can see the dorsal stripe quite clearly during his pirouette.[/QUOTE]
It still could be countershading. I had a bay mare that had what looked like a very distinctive dorsal stripe. But, in fact, it was just countershading.
[QUOTE=tracy;2230992]
how are there papered warmblood palaminos?[/QUOTE]
Depends on what papers you’re talking about. Recently a Trakehner breeder bred two OSB mares to a cremello TB, with resulting offspring colt and filly. Both are “papered” but are not eligible for Official Stud Book. However, IF the TB stallion were to be presented and approved, then his offspring to TK OSB mares would be full Trakehners. But even now, the filly is eligible for the Preliminary Stud Book (after inspection), and her offspring by an approved stallion would be OSB eligible.
harvestmoon, yep, it obviously could, but then there’s all the dun progeny from non-duns…As I’d said I would for Black Forest, I emailed Sabine yesterday and asked if she had any idea what pony in the pedigree the dun gene might have come from initially, and she just said “obviously, one of Dornik’s [and Don’t Worry’s] parents had the dun factor, but was registered wrong. With the dun factor, this happens often, as it’s often not that obvious”, and added that she doesn’t know why all the fuss, because if the stallion keeps producing lots of dun offspring from non-dun mares, obviously the stallion’s dun, simple as that! And, she’s right, you know. Apart from the colour and markings of the stallions in question, with all the dun progeny they’ve produced to non-dun mares, it’s a non-issue [and we all just have to live with the fact that unfortunately we might never figure out where it came from :winkgrin:]. hluing, I’m crossing fingers for you for a dun foal from that semen, and, yeah, they are really lovely…:winkgrin:
Kelly.
[QUOTE=hluing;2249134]
Kelly…great post…exactly what I was thinking!
When I got into GRP’s and found out they did have dunbs and dilute colors…it was awhole new world for me:) It has been fun learning about these colors and I must confess I very mcuh want a dilute or dun for myself;) I do have three doses of FS Don’t Worry semen…so you never know! Crossing my fingers for a dun.[/QUOTE]
Last year we went to a show and there was one of the “Young Dressage Horse” qualifiers that qualify for the Bundeschampionat. There was meant to be one for the horses and one for the ponies but only one pony turned up so they threw him in with the horses.
Little girl, 12 or 13 years old at the most, on a glorious 5 year old Palomino stallion. Proper Barbie horsie, perfect little WB only 14.2hh. Joyful, bouncy, great mover, superbly well behaved but still very obviously a playful young man. The girl rode him superbly, sympathetically, with a skill well beyond her young age, really letting him shine AND looked like she was having just TOOOOO much fun.
And you know what? They totally and utterly wiped the floor with the horses and took the qualifier on 8.2 or 8.3 - can’t remember.
I just remember being so bloody damned impressed. I can’t remember any of the horses (and there were a lot) but I SOOOO remember that pony. Utterly wonderful.
I am just jealous that we didn’t have ponies like that when I grew up in Germany. You rode horses - end of story. I learned to ride mostly on Sandstein who was black, 16hh and at 22 years of age knew every trick in the book… German kids today are VERY lucky!!!
They are just amazing, aren’t they? I look at them and think the same thing, where were they when I was a kid, and I really love the fact that kids can and DO ride them, too. I’m glad to hear the little girl and her stallion won the qualifier against the bigger horses, by the way. Obviously they deserved it, from what you’ve said, but I could just imagine the pony being passed over for a 17hh horse. I’m glad to hear he wasn’t [and also, what a thrill for the young girl, she must have been beside herself…]
Kelly.
[QUOTE=summerhorse;2247237]
Dun and buckskin are not the same thing, they are totally separate genes/colors and the color of the mares who produced the foals must be known also. I saw some good pictures of FS Don’t Worry and see no evidence that the horse is dun. I’d love to see it if it is true but nowhere is he listed as dun nor does he look dun, he looks chestnut.
Champion de Luxe is a buckskin not a dun and I don’t know his sire and dam’s color but his dam certainly sounds like that is a palomino line. Nonetheless Not A Dun. http://www.superiorequinesires.com/stallions/fschampiondeluxe.htm[/QUOTE]
All buckskins carry a dilute gene, but some buckskins also carry the dun gene as well. From UC Davis:
“Buckskin dun (A, E, D). Compare with buckskin (A, E, CCcr). Note the dun pattern (dorsal stripe, shoulder patch, leg barring on front legs) associated with the D dilution factor.”
“However, there are several important differences of the effects of D and Ccr on color. First, D dilutes both black and red pigment on the body, but does not dilute either pigment in the points. Red body color is diluted to a pinky-red, yellowish-red or yellow; black body color is diluted to a mouse-gray. Second, in addition to pigment dilution, a predominant characteristic of the allele D is the presence of a particular pattern which includes dark points, dorsal stripe (list), shoulder stripe and leg barring. Third, homozygosity for D does not produce extreme dilution to cream as does Ccr.”
[QUOTE=rosawood;2256365]
All buckskins carry a dilute gene, but some buckskins also carry the dun gene as well. From UC Davis:
“Buckskin dun (A, E, D). Compare with buckskin (A, E, CCcr). Note the dun pattern (dorsal stripe, shoulder patch, leg barring on front legs) associated with the D dilution factor.”
“However, there are several important differences of the effects of D and Ccr on color. First, D dilutes both black and red pigment on the body, but does not dilute either pigment in the points. Red body color is diluted to a pinky-red, yellowish-red or yellow; black body color is diluted to a mouse-gray. Second, in addition to pigment dilution, a predominant characteristic of the allele D is the presence of a particular pattern which includes dark points, dorsal stripe (list), shoulder stripe and leg barring. Third, homozygosity for D does not produce extreme dilution to cream as does Ccr.”[/QUOTE]
That’s correct a horse may carry one the other or both. It’s a modifier and a separate gene from cream. My problem with just taking some people’s words as gospel for proof is that so far there seems to be a problem telling buckskin/palomino from dun esp. over in UK and Europe where the terms have been used interchangeably for a very long time. So far except for that one foal that does look dun but is still a foal and can lose it by next year everything shown has been palomino or buckskin but people are calling them dun. The pedigrees are all palomino and buckskin. If the stallions are dun then one of these must be a dunskin or palomino dun but none look a bit like it from their pictures although the pictures are not particularly good.
Without dun factor they are not dun. the only way to tell is to see a picture showing a strong dorsal (not a false dorsal or countershading) and other dun factor (although many just have dorsals). I don’t see a strong dorsal on that stallion but that could just be this monitor.
Color people are rather anal. We just want everything to be identified properly so that you can actually tell where the colors came from instead of wondering who has a fence jumper somewhere in there. Are these ponies required to be DNA verified? If a horse IS dun we want to know about it but I need to see some real evidence on either the horse or more than one offspring (and adults).
Other than that no it doesn’t really matter to me or anyone I guess if horses are called the wrong color.
Look, as I said, I know nothing more than the basics in this, and I’m learning as I go along [for which I thank you all ], but what several of you have said is that for our colt [for example] to be a buckskin, one parent would have to be a dilute [which I’m assured would be pretty obvious, and obviously our colt’s dark bay mother isn’t], so therefore as the two possibilities are buckskin or dun, he simply has to be dun, doesn’t he? And that’s completely aside from what Sabine and others have told me about. If he can’t be buckskin because his parents aren’t dilute, he surely must be dun…? The only other possibility being that his sire IS a dilute [which of course his parentage makes possible], but it’s been stressed by others that that would be a lot more obvious than a red dun. And, if, as Black Forest mentioned, there is still no test for the dun gene, then supposition and logic is just about all we’ve got, isn’t it?
Kelly.
PS. As to the earlier suggestions of the possibility of “fence jumpers”, that’d be all very logical if it were only Folklore we’re talking about, but we’re talking a significant number of progeny from at least two separate stallions from the same line but standing at two separate studs [and I might mention it’s the two most successful GRP sires in history we’re talking about!!!], so that seems a tad of a stretch in this case. Again, I think people are just going to have to look outside the square in this instance…
[QUOTE=Kelly G;2257812]
Look, as I said, I know nothing more than the basics in this, and I’m learning as I go along [for which I thank you all ], but what several of you have said is that for our colt [for example] to be a buckskin, one parent would have to be a dilute [which I’m assured would be pretty obvious, and obviously our colt’s dark bay mother isn’t], so therefore as the two possibilities are buckskin or dun, he simply has to be dun, doesn’t he? And that’s completely aside from what Sabine and others have told me about. If he can’t be buckskin because his parents aren’t dilute, he surely must be dun…? The only other possibility being that his sire IS a dilute [which of course his parentage makes possible], but it’s been stressed by others that that would be a lot more obvious than a red dun. And, if, as Black Forest mentioned, there is still no test for the dun gene, then supposition and logic is just about all we’ve got, isn’t it?
Kelly.
PS. As to the earlier suggestions of the possibility of “fence jumpers”, that’d be all very logical if it were only Folklore we’re talking about, but we’re talking a significant number of progeny from at least two separate stallions from the same line but standing at two separate studs [and I might mention it’s the two most successful GRP sires in history we’re talking about!!!], so that seems a tad of a stretch in this case. Again, I think people are just going to have to look outside the square in this instance…:D[/QUOTE]
So far your foal is the only one I’ve seen that looks like a true dun. Not saying the others aren’t but I haven’t seen any photos that look like duns. Lots of palominos and buckskins though.
If your foal stays dun (remember many foals shed out those dun looking markings as they grow up) then either he is dun and his sire is dun (my question is which of his parents are dun?) OR he is a false dun. Unfortunately there is no test for dun yet as you mentioned, hopefully someone will come up with one sooner or later because there are many horses who look dun and are not.
There are also (to keep things lively) horses that DON’T look palomino or buckskin and are! (or are smokey blacks which is black with a cream but cream does not affect black hair so they can pass it, they just don’t show it) Some sooty buckskins and palominos are so dark the “regular” person would not notice that they are actually dilutes. And a seal brown dilute may fool almost anyone as they only show any gold tones in the limited areas a seal brown has red to dilute.
Although this is a morgan page it is very good at explaining the dilution colors and showing examples of false duns and sneaky creams. Morgans and TBs (and thus horses from their lines) are VERY good at being sneaky probably because the soot/shade modifier is very well represented in the gene pool.
Check out these pictures:
http://colormorgans.tripod.com/buckskin.htm
http://colormorgans.tripod.com/palomino.htm
And then there are the palominos whose white m/ts darken up to match their coats! Those can fool anyone. And some that darken up to black! Those look downright odd. (mostly have seen that in QHs oddly enough)
That being said your mare does look bay from what I can see and if your foal turned out to be a false dun he’d also be bay.
summerhorse, I actually asked in the begining of this thread if Folklore could be a light bay, so I’d have no problem with that possibility at all…I don’t really care what he is, to be honest…we bought him because he was a very well bred and very good son of Dornik, and sons of Dornik are a difficult thing to come across, so as Black Forest mentioned early on, he could be pink and I’d be delighted. But, of course, his colour is beautiful [it’s actually lighter and more golden than is shown in the photos], and doesn’t at this point show any indication of changing. There are many other progeny by Dornik [and Don’t Worry] in the same type of colour, so whatever it is, Dornik keeps on throwing it, and of course it’s lovely.
I do repeat what I posted early in this thread, though, and that’s that much as we’d like to think we already understand everything there is to understand about things like horse colourations and would like to put it all in a neat little box, past experience says that there’ll still be plenty more to learn, and that we’ll keep discovering new things that we didn’t think possible before, as with any other area of science. So, given there’s still no test for dun, we may yet find out there are more variances in it than expected, and we may find there are other colours we didn’t previously know existed, and so forth. Time will eventually tell…and I think the safest thing is always to never say never
Kelly.
PS. You know, from memory, Folklore’s possibly the only distinctly dun [looking] Dornik progeny I’ve seen photographed as yet, too, but as I said there are photos of maybe 10 to 20 progeny of his and Don’t Worry’s on the internet, out of many 100’s of progeny in total [they each have an average of 4-10 progeny in the finals of the Bundeschampionat each year, alone, many of which aren’t photographed and don’t have their colour listed]. And as I’ve said before, when several of the top GRP breeders in the world [including one I consider a friend] tell me they’ve got distinctly dun [looking] Dornik or Don’t Worry progeny, and say they know of lots of others, I’m actually left feeling pretty uncomfortable about being a part of any discussion that’s all about questioning their word on that! I don’t want that to be taken the wrong way, but it just feels a bit out of line to me, I guess…
- Now, I do have one more kind of tricky question: if there’s no actual test for the dun gene as yet, how do we actually know for a fact that it’ll be found that all duns have the same features as have been described?
[QUOTE=Kelly G;2258843]
summerhorse, I actually asked in the begining of this thread if Folklore could be a light bay, so I’d have no problem with that possibility at all…I don’t really care what he is, to be honest…we bought him because he was a very well bred and very good son of Dornik, and sons of Dornik are a difficult thing to come across, so as Black Forest mentioned early on, he could be pink and I’d be delighted. But, of course, his colour is beautiful [it’s actually lighter and more golden than is shown in the photos], and doesn’t at this point show any indication of changing. There are many other progeny by Dornik [and Don’t Worry] in the same type of colour, so whatever it is, Dornik keeps on throwing it, and of course it’s lovely.
I do repeat what I posted early in this thread, though, and that’s that much as we’d like to think we already understand everything there is to understand about things like horse colourations and would like to put it all in a neat little box, past experience says that there’ll still be plenty more to learn, and that we’ll keep discovering new things that we didn’t think possible before, as with any other area of science. So, given there’s still no test for dun, we may yet find out there are more variances in it than expected, and we may find there are other colours we didn’t previously know existed, and so forth. Time will eventually tell…and I think the safest thing is always to never say never
Kelly.
PS. You know, from memory, Folklore’s possibly the only distinctly dun [looking] Dornik progeny I’ve seen photographed as yet, too, but as I said there are photos of maybe 10 to 20 progeny of his and Don’t Worry’s on the internet, out of many 100’s of progeny in total [they each have an average of 4-10 progeny in the finals of the Bundeschampionat each year, alone, many of which aren’t photographed and don’t have their colour listed]. And as I’ve said before, when several of the top GRP breeders in the world [including one I consider a friend] tell me they’ve got distinctly dun [looking] Dornik or Don’t Worry progeny, and say they know of lots of others, I’m actually left feeling pretty uncomfortable about being a part of any discussion that’s all about questioning their word on that! I don’t want that to be taken the wrong way, but it just feels a bit out of line to me, I guess…
- Now, I do have one more kind of tricky question: if there’s no actual test for the dun gene as yet, how do we actually know for a fact that it’ll be found that all duns have the same features as have been described?[/QUOTE]
Dun is a simple dominant. It’s there or it is not. On some horses it CAN be hard to tell (if the horse is very dark from shading or whatever) but produce records usually prove or disprove it on breeding stock (a dun should have about 50/50 dun vs. non dun if heterozygous and 100% dun if homozygous). BUT most duns are fairly obvious. And there are enough breeds that are primarily if not totally dun that some things are fairly well established. Like all duns have a definite dorsal at the minimum (but not all dorsals or primitive markings are duns, sort of like that paint/pinto thing).
Of course on some breeds where you have lots of greys or loud pintos and apps some duns can sneak through because their owners or breeders just don’t notice. which messes up registry records even more (until the late 70s early 80s dun and cream were still lumped together in many many minds and breeds).
Anyway dun is like grey, not a lot of mystery there.
Look, my point was really just that you/I/anyone can only know what can be proven NOW, and that we WILL [and I guarantee it’ll be the case] know stuff in 5/10/20 and 100 years that we absolutely don’t know NOW, and there might well be horses who show up genetically as having a dun gene [or any other colour gene that can’t be tested for as yet, for that matter] who look completely different from what we expect. This has nothing to do with our colt, or Dornik, or anything else that specific, I’m simply making a general statement that has been proven to be true thousands of times over throughout the centuries. We can only know what science can prove NOW, and many years ago, people KNEW the world was flat, with the very same certainty we now KNOW it’s not. Anyway, I don’t want to bore other posters [including you, summerhorse ] silly with my sad old philosophies. But, I want to thank you and Black Forest and everyone else who’s been teaching me [and posting] tons of info I knew nothing about before regarding colours, for taking the time out to do that. It really has been an incredibly interesting thread [for me, at least 
] to follow and learn from. And, if I do ever get any more info, photos, etc, on obviously dun looking Dornik/Don’t Worry progeny [or any other interestingly coloured horses, for that matter], I will post it in case it’s of interest to anyone.
Cheers,
Kelly.
