If a horse can comfortably jump the fence without causing injury to themselves or the rider, I consider a stop dirty when the horse still decides not to.
What about yourself?
I consider it “dirty” (meaning the horse is choosing not to play the game) when a horse refuses with little warning, while being given a good ride, over a jump well within his ability and experience level, AND knowing there are no underlying physical elements. Most “dirty” stops are caused by pain or a bad ride (rider looks down, drops shoulders, takes leg off, has fear that transmits to horse, etc).
A green horse who stops at a new or scary fence is not dirty. A horse who transmits his uncertainty (dropping behind the leg, wiggling, etc) and the rider who just sits there and lets him stop…also not dirty. A horse who stops after a “good ride”, directly after receiving some pretty awful rides, is also understandable. “Dirty” is a horse given a good ride consistently, who pricks his ears 4 strides out, says “I got this!!” and then bails at the last second. Still, in such a case it is always best to look for a source of pain, because most horses ARE honest and want to do the job so long as they have the confidence to do so.
23 Likes
IMO, a stop is dirty when they act like they’re going to jump it (i.e. commit with their body) and then slam on the brakes at the last possible second.
I had a horse many years ago that was super spooky and a huge chicken, and he would stop somewhat predictably at certain fences at shows. I didn’t consider those stops “dirty” because he started the stop 6+ strides out from the jump and there was no changing his mind. I considered that a relatively “honest” stop. It resulted in a change of career to the hunter ring, and the stop (and the spook) went away. But there was never any risk to falling off or getting launched. IMO, a dirty stop typically results in some rider fling-age (though not necessarily a fall).
18 Likes
So a horse should jump whatever even when the rider makes mistakes and ride badly? Just because they can doesn’t mean they want to.
Horses stop at last second because their rider are incompetent during the ride or in prior training.
Forcing a horse that is known to regularly stop apparently « for no reason » is stupid and cruel.
There is no dirty stoppers, just stupid riders who can’t recognize their own inability to properly listen to their horse’s need.
Change discipline is usually good solution.
Same goes for ring sour horses.
9 Likes
That’s a little harsh.
I would consider a dirty stop as when the horse is in front of the leg, the distance is good, the jump isn’t overfacing the horse, and they stop quickly. Often dropping a shoulder to dump the rider.
Some of these horses are in pain, some have determined that stopping and dumping the rider means the ride is over and they get to go back to the barn. Some are indeed sour and need a change. I’ve seen “dirty” stopping, ring sour horses go out and have a blast hunting.
There are horses out there with a consistent stop that I wouldn’t consider dirty, just lazy and taking advantage of a more novice rider. There’s one in our barn, she’s 14, been there done that, won her zone this year in the 3’6" hunters. She’s super safe so even short stirrup kids can get on and jump her around. BUT, if you drop your shoulder an inch or pull within 5 strides of a jump without leg she’ll just get behind the leg until she coasts to a stop.
11 Likes
I think most so-called “dirty stoppers” have a reason for the stop and can be rehabilitated.
The worst one I ever rode actually started to lift her forelegs off the ground and would slam them back down again and whirl away from the fence. I eventually figured out that she had been schooled by somebody that rode with a deep, driving seat into firm contact all.the.time. and that if she felt the contact change in front of the fence, she stopped - she lost confidence and forward impulsion if the rider didn’t have her precisely between the leg and hand.
She would stop at a single rail on the ground if you changed position or contact before it.
With careful handling, she got a lot better, but was never, ever going to be a beginner or ammy friendly ride.
Most of the so-called dirty stoppers that I have know/seen do have an underlying reason if you look for it - pain being the most common, followed by being overfaced, then previous training and rider error.
9 Likes
I think when the horse has already jumped the fence several times and then decides he doesn’t want to, without warning or provocation - AKA he goes to the fence like he’s going to jump and then at the last second says “psych!” and bails on you. I think a lot of things have to line up right for it to really be dirty: the horse has to be sound, the distance has to be fair, the question asked honest and clear and within the horse’s level of training, and the horse has to say “all systems go” – and if he still stops last second, he’s not being honest with you.
I had my worst fall to date on a horse like that… It was an 18" cross rail we had already jumped over four times… He was an IHSA horse that I was reschooling because he had pulled this stunt with other riders as well… so we were starting small with 18" crossrails. This was a horse that did 2’6" normally… Nothing had changed about the fence as we approached it for the fifth time, but he stopped midstride less than 3 feet before the cross rail and did the meanest shoulder-drop and then bucked, and lawndarted me good and proper.
I feel bad for that horse now, as I think he was trying to say he didn’t enjoy the IHSA circuit anymore… but I still think he was a very dirty horse because he always waited until the last possible second to pull the brakes, and never lost momentum or flicked an ear in the moments leading up to the e-brake pull-and-spin. I watched him pull the maneuver on other riders as well, with trot poles… As far as whether or not he was sound and comfortable, I think he was sound… he was just a very lazy horse and I don’t think the IHSA was the right fit for him.
I do think that most horses that stop are doing so because of an underlying physical issue or lack of confidence in the question.
4 Likes
There is always a reason. Calling that reason “dirty” is the human view of the situation. Just because the human doesn’t know what the reason may be, doesn’t mean that there isn’t a reason. The reason may not be diagnosed by the vet or the coach yet, or may never be. But there is reason. The horse knows the reason why he stops. You may not agree that his reason is viable, but it is his reason, not yours. If you are a horseman, you investigate and uncover the reason without assigning a title to the situation as “dirty”, and either solve the problem, or accept that the problem is unsolvable.
12 Likes
Barely.
I would consider a dirty stop as when the horse is in front of the leg, the distance is good, the jump isn’t overfacing the horse, and they stop quickly. Often dropping a shoulder to dump the rider.
Some of these horses are in pain, some have determined that stopping and dumping the rider means the ride is over and they get to go back to the barn. Some are indeed sour and need a change. I’ve seen “dirty” stopping, ring sour horses go out and have a blast hunting.
It has nothing to do the horses’ abilities to jump but the way they are ridden and taken care of.
It’s all about riders’ faults and bad horsemanship.
There are horses out there with a consistent stop that I wouldn’t consider dirty, just lazy and taking advantage of a more novice rider. There’s one in our barn, she’s 14, been there done that, won her zone this year in the 3’6" hunters. She’s super safe so even short stirrup kids can get on and jump her around. BUT, if you drop your shoulder an inch or pull within 5 strides of a jump without leg she’ll just get behind the leg until she coasts to a stop.
This horse is not taking advantage of the novice riders, she’s listening to them. When they pull, when they get unbalanced, when they stop riding… she slows down and stops.
When ridden correctly consistently, she obviously doesn’t stop.
She doesn’t have a consistent stop.
She has consistent inexperienced riders who are learning from their faults.
6 Likes
99% of the time, horse will tell a rider they are thinking about whether to jump or not as soon as they line up to it. Rider SHOULD feel the horse starting to doubt and hesitate. You’ll hear a rider lacking that feel claiming the horse stopped dirty, usually the horse told them, asked for support and direction and the rider didn’t listen or did not know how to fix the problem…or was to timid to insist.
Real dirty stoppers don’t telegraph anything…maybe they really intend to jump, who knows, but they get to the point they should rock back and just drop themselves and the rider headfirst into the fence…and typically these will be solid fences, not post and rail. These horses don’t care if they hurt themselves, whether it’s fear, conditioned response to abuse or pain from rocking back, they don’t take off and have no thought of self preservation. Some of these go on for some time successfully but they eventually revert. Think I’ve only seen 3 or 4 of these, often saw them with a young Pro aboard trying to make a reputation for themselves but just ended up enhancing the horses reputation as a true dirty stopper and spending time in casts and braces. These few horses just don’t care if they hurt themselves or not. That’s the biggest difference.
Some other horses are on the nasty side when they stop, they give no hints but they will protect themselves by dropping one shoulder to spin as they slam on the breaks. Sharp rider can pick up that shoulder starting to drop, block it and go over. This is the type you see more often and more likely learned at least some of the time because of questionable training and riding and letting vet issues go on too long so the behavior got ingrained- fix the vet issue but not the resulting behavior. However these nasty stoppers take care to avoid hurting themselves so don’t belong in the dirty stopper group.
Most established trainers won’t deal with either of these types here and especially the spinning, non suicidal stoppers drift into the realm of " project" horses. One reason why I advocate knowing the true backstory on any horse that seems below market price you are considering buying.
Fortunately, most horses tell you way back they don’t want to jump that jump and proper training with correct riding solves the problem. Often an observer can see a stop coming with subtle changes in the horses body language even when the rider cannot feel it. Any rider having trouble with feeling their horse set up to stop regularly really needs to look first too their riding and trainer competence then in to a good vet exam…and not just a look see.
5 Likes
Wow interesting takes guys! Just as a note, this is meant to spark discussion, not be a personal question. Many strong feelings though here.
Nope, I don’t really feel like this is what I was saying. A rider’s continued mistakes would make a horse uncomfortable, and in some cases, unsound. Consider a horse that is continually caught in the mouth or asked to leave long. I did say that as long as the horse could comfortably jump the fence.
I don’t agree horses that stop at the last second are always due to rider incompetence. There are so many factors this sport, it’s almost impossible to deal in absolutes like that. Maybe the horse is green, took a second look at a scary box, catches a gust of wind up their tail… Any number of things, really.
But I do agree that some disciplines that suit certain horses better, and we should do better to not fit round pegs in square holes.
5 Likes
This is an excellent point! I agree completely.
3 Likes
Long ago I dropped using the term “dirty” for a stop or any other horse behavior. Language matters, it helps shape our thoughts and attitudes about a situation. I think the term “dirty” can become a roadblock to effectively addressing the REAL situation, which is either training and/or pain/medical. Both are often solvable, although not by everyone.
It is easier to blame the horse than it is to look to ourselves. That’s where the term “dirty” originated, I think.
Nature did not give horses the brain cells to form the intent that is implied by the term “dirty stop”. That is not what happened, from a factual standpoint. The horse is not able to ‘game’ the rider; rather, the horse is reacting to its own perceptions and prior history. And that’s something we can work on going forward. But unfortunately we humans tend to over-interpret the horse’s behavior and unhappy facial expression, even the flat ears, in an anthropomorphic way.
6 Likes
Very well said.
Unfortunately I’ve seen many a trainer lead the way in describing a horse as a “dirty stopper”, rather than teaching their students how to ride and school such a horse more effectively. IMO good trainers should not use that term, or very rarely.
2 Likes
A horse who is very capable of the task who is ridden positively to a reasonable distance and slams on the brakes without telegraphing a thing.
I also with all earlier points about horses often often having training or soundness holes that are the truth behind the “dirty.”
1 Like
I guess I don’t normally use the term “dirty stopper”. There are horses that are lied to once too often or are tortured/abused and no longer trust their riders that stop. There are horses that experience physical pain when jumping either rider created or not that stop. There are horses that have other physical issues which make them stop… eyesight, short stride, etc. There are horses who are very careful and green who are not getting the ride to support them jumping who stop. “Dirty” implies the horse does it maliciously in my mind and I don’t think that’s possible. Some “so called” dirty stoppers may just not be confident or capable to jump and should likely have a different job.
3 Likes
I guess the criteria I WANT to say is: no physical issues of the horse, not overfaced, a good ride to the base of the jump, no extraneous “I’m green; there’s spooky things happening; etc” horse says “no” at the last minute.
Realistically though, I think some horses learn how to be a little opportunistic. There are certainly horses that will take a joke and not require the dead-accurate ride every fence that seems to be implied by some of the posters; they’re called amateur horses. I have one of these, thankfully. But there are some that are kind of always looking for a way out. It might sometimes be caused by pain, which is unfortunate. But I do think some horse with a less than ideal work ethic learn they can get away with some things.
5 Likes
I got dumped this way once too. Schooling a horse for a younger rider having those issues. Crossrail, had gone over it once or twice fine, third time was a nope! He trotted up just fine, slammed on breaks and dropped his right shoulder, with enough force to dislodge a 6’ tall me, sitting up and well anchored, horse was in the middle of the jump when I got up. That one was dirty.
I believe in the honesty of horses. It is up to us to make them want to work and to enjoy their work. A stopper is made either by bad riding or pain or fear. They are telling us in the only way they can.
9 Likes
