And that’s training, learning by repetitive experience … just the wrong kind of training & experience.
I think it is crucial for riders to keep in mind that horses are unable to mentally form the kind of intent that the term “dirty stopper” implies. Even a horse that has learned to drop a shoulder and deposit a rider into the fence does not understand the context, or the consequences, of this action. They know nothing about physics or medicine. They are just getting relief from continuing work in a way that they have learned.
Horses (and other animals) are always learning, always clocking their own experiences. If they get a consistent relief from pressure by stopping in a particular way, then then that is what we are teaching them.
The root cause of dirty stops is the riding the horse has experienced.
A dirty stop to me is a horse that looks like it’s going to go over the fence and at the last minute quits. If they are giving you a feeling of commitment, if you yourself are committed, and they suddenly cop out, that is a complete dirty stopper and will shatter your confidence in a snap. I’d question a horse like this’s true desire to jump, sans pain, because if he can’t make a commitment then he most likely never will without some real retraining. If you can’t trust him to go over fences, that reinforces his belief that you can’t be trusted either, and the cycle continues.
If it’s pain related almost always will it be a push to even get them up to the fence, because they are giving you a red flag warning “hey, HEY, I don’t want to do this!” 5 strides out!
I agree. There ARE horses with dirty stops - I own one. A super smart pony mare who wants to do what SHE likes to do, and will pour on the naughty behavior, including dirty stops, when she doesn’t want to work. I work with a trainer with over 35 years of riding experience, so it is NOT bad riding, pain, or lack of proper training. This mare does not like the ring. We decided to stop working her in the ring altogether and started trail riding her and riding her in the fields, with jumps. She is a completely different horse. She has boundless energy and enthusiasm and loves to jump. When a horse trots up to a cross rail that she can jump from a standstill and runs out at the very last second, she’s a dirty stopper.
One thing to realize about any horse with an ingrained stop. It won’t completely school out but lurk in the horses mind to pop up with no real reason later in life. Whatever reason the horse started stopping, once they learn they can get the rider off that way and/or make the jumping stop…that memory is not going away. Think that’s tragic when it’s caused by bad riding and training or pain as I suspect the vast majority are. No doubt we create that…but we can’t get rid of it completely because we can’t erase every memory we gave that horse.
There is that minuscule percentage of horses out there that have no sense of self preservation. The ones that go headfirst into the solid jump. Something happened to or with them but not caring if they hurt themselves makes them dangerous no matter what originally caused the behavior. In non jumping disciplines these are the horses that repeatedly flip over on riders or bolt right thro fences or other solid objects or walls not caring that they injure themselves in the process. IMO there are some that just have a screw loose, one I knew that hurt itself and it’s riders had a mom that was self destructive ( no, no idea why they bred it). So something can be really wrong there.
The reason for mentioning this is that this is the internet and there is an awful lot of BSS with novice riders and owners. These horses don’t consciously plan on hurting people but they can and will hurt you. Some things you can’t fix, somethings you need to admit you don’t have the skills to deal with or you make the horse worse. If you get stops, get help or get another horse that hasn’t learned this or us nit suffering discomfort ir pain when it jumps… Or don’t jump the horse, you do it no favors by letting the behavior continue to get more ingrained whether its pain or just bad riding/training.
I rode a confirmed stopper for a few years who wasn’t what I would consider “dirty” - he would stop and stop hard if you didn’t ride him in a way that he liked, but he stopped square and kept his head up, thus keeping his rider on. I don’t know his history, but he definitely seemed like a horse who had spent a while with riders who got him into enough bad situations that he just learned stopping was the best way to keep everyone safe and sane. It really felt like he was telling you, “no, you dummy, you’re doing this all wrong!” He seemed to me to be an intelligent and perceptive horse. He definitely had a lot of personality.
One day, a more advanced rider than I was got on him and kind of arrogantly told me she’d fix him for me. After warming him up over a few jumps, she started on a course. He slammed on the brakes, dropped a shoulder, and spun out to the side, planting her right into the jump. I felt like THAT was a dirty stop…and it was completely hilarious. (She was fine, just humbled.)
I wound up purchasing that horse, and he never stopped dirty like that again as long as he lived.
Over time, he actually got a lot better, though like people have mentioned above, the stop was always in there…lurking. :lol:
We generally tend to use the term “dirty” not to describe the horse’s intent or reason for the stop, but to prepare the rider for the nature of the refusal. IE I’m schooling some new sale horses that came in to the barn and trainer tells me that Dobbins’ previous barn says his stop is dirty - I’ll take a backseat and hold his face and expect a last minute spook and shoulder drop.
In my experience, those type of stoppers are usually created by pain or inadequate previous riding. Most of the ones with inadequate riding will go around fine after a few jumps as long as you ride confidently with an accurate eye and properly balanced between your leg and hand. They make take a joke once but don’t miss again. They usually will jump their hearts out for you once they trust you and know you’ll never lie to them about a jump or distance, but they can be pretty unforgiving if you miss or ask too much.
@chicagojumper , never heard of that definition of dirty stop. Its always been described to me as a horse who will stop even when all the pieces are in place, and no matter how good you ride will still spin and drop a shoulder.
Actually, that’s a great definition to prepare a rider for what might happen if they don’t ride perfectly or make a mistake. Not placing blame on tne horse but allowing tne rider to prepare and protect themselves…or just say no to jumping that horse, which is the smarter choice for most of us.
And, IMO, the very few bonafide dirty stoppers out there don’t drop a shoulder, they go in headfirst. Horse that drops a shoulder and spins or even stops hard and straight but keeps it’s head and shoulders up and straight as described above doesn’t want to hurt itself, not really protecting the rider, just not suicidal.
But that’s not really what happens. That’s what some rider tells themselves is happening - a stop even when the ride is perfect and there is no reason at all. That is not an objective description. Unfortunately, it’s a description that says “there is nothing more I can do” when that is not the case.
This is what is important about language, words, definitions and even the stories we pass along. It’s about our perception of what is happening. We frame it to create the impression that we want to believe, and that we want others to believe.
I have come to deeply believe that we need to be careful how we describe what is happening with a horse, both to ourselves and to others. We think we are objective and factual, but really we are all doing just what the horse is doing - speaking from our own background, experience, and desired outcome. And in the case of the human side of the equation, how we want others to agree with our own perception.
When we say “all the pieces are in place” - well hell, obviously they weren’t or the jump would have been perfect !!! A bad stop isn’t necessarily the fault of a rider who did the best they knew how. But we should re-frame that description to be far more accurate about knowing the horse stopped for a reason, but we ourselves haven’t yet determined what that reason is. We thought we had it all together, but some pieces were missing and so we have more to learn about this horse.
The rider may consider themselves to have done everything right, and in fact they may have perfected their own tool box as far as that tool box goes … but the horse is still carrying its past with it. In addition, there are no perfect riders. There are no riders who can overcome all the baggage a horse may bring in a certain particular instant. The stories of BNR’s who had a bad moment and came off a horse at a clinic or elsewhere is evidence enough of this.
Rather than talking about ‘dirty stops’, I believe we should be talking about the baggage the horse is carrying that we haven’t resolved yet. (If anyone ever does.)
We all talk about rider incompetence but who on this thread never gets a bad distance?
how many A circuit trips get 8 perfect distances? Even the best of the best aren’t perfect, often.
I think the more important thing is the ratio of how good we are vs. what size fences we are asking them to do (and what impulsion we have coming in).
i don’t like dealing with stops so I tend to underchallenge my horses. You build up the bank of confidence, not by always being perfect. By. It putting a horse into a situation it can regularly feel comfortable digging itself out of.
then when you have a big miss you have enough money in the confidence bank to have the horse say “I’ve got this.”
They deplete the confidence bank at different rates, depending on the horse and its personality. a very careful horse doesn’t have many misses and needs an accurate rider. Some will forgive ten times to Sunday, they are saints.
but we all make mistakes and missing now and then is not incompetence. Heck, even McLain missed badly with Sapphire in the Ind Medal finals of the Olympics, and he is an impeccable rider!
if they are stopping for “no reason” it is 99.9999% likely it is pain or a rider who doesn’t understand what they are doing wrong.
Agree totally! I also like to be well mounted on an abundance of scope but there are loads of riders that seem to want to jump beyond their capabilities and go through horses as they miss at jumps that are too big for them to find an accurate distance. I’ve jumped big jumps in my much younger years and the accuracy is not linear…2’6" to 3’6" is a ton different than 3’6" to 4’6". Ego plays a big role in this mistake and not a lot of trainers seem to be stopping their students from trying to jump too high when they are not consistent at the level below.
At least, you are now kind of listening to your horse since you cross train and eliminated the source of her discomfort for now.
But, I will also say that
+35 yrs of riding means squat.
Your horse became ring sour from poor riding/training management.
You probably just ride her differently on the trails. (different bit/bridle/saddle/position in the saddle)
Maybe the ground is different, maybe after some time in a harder/deeper footing, the horse has enough…
When a horse trots up to a crossrail and runs out at the last second on a regular basis, it’s time to revise your training plan and give a little call to your vet.
If not, horses then develop bad habits in fear of pain , of scary situation and lose their confidence.
You need to find why she does that in the ring in order to find a real long term solution.
Let’s hope she won’t develop this bad habit on the trail too.
I’ve retrained my fair share of ringsour horses so my advice will be : Instead of working against the horse, thinking they have bad behaviors, try riding with and for them. It takes a little longer but it is more rewarding because they learn to trust you.
You are wrong, you only have a small bit of the story with this horse. She has been vetted, she is absolutely not lame. This horse was good all winter at home, she is a beautiful hunter who will go in the warm up ring with other horses and jump around perfectly. When it’s time for her round she will balk. She has made it clear to us that she does not want to show (she has in fact shown in the past and been perfect, winning ribbons.)When she started this behavior, including balking at going into the ring, we gave her the benefit of the doubt and assumed it was pain related. She is the most stubborn horse my trainer has ever worked with. This horse will go around our ring jumping 7 out of 8 jumps perfectly, decide she’s had enough for the day and then run out at one particular jump. She has never been ridden exclusively in the ring - I am lucky to have other options, and contrary to your opinion am neither stupid, nor incompetent.
I had her briefly up for sale after we decided to stop trying to make her a show horse. A woman who came to see her had ridden her mother in eventing for several years in the past. Apparently her mother had a great work ethic and excelled at her job. This woman knows my horse’s breeder. She told me that she remembers her breeder and the trainer who broke her telling her that this horse could be “difficult.” Great. Would have been nice to know that before I bought her.
My neighbor is a world champion in reining (probably not stupid), and told me that he never tells a client they have a good horse (he takes them on when they are 2, and these are 6 figure horses) until they go to the show ring. They can be perfect at home and terrible at shows. It is not for lack of competent training - it is the nature of some horses.
I’m sure some horses can be trained out of this - we have had periods of success with her which is why we persisted. However, this trait is deeply ingrained in her and will rear its ugly head just when you think she’s over it. I sent her away for 2 months to a trainer with expertise in retraining horses with issues. She improved greatly, but the trainer felt the trait is part of this mare’s personality and would probably resurface at some point. It did as soon as show season started. If you think you can train a work ethic into any horse, you haven’t trained enough horses. Sure, there is a reason she dirty stops - she doesn’t want to work unless she’s doing what she wants to do. It doesn’t make the stop less dirty, naughty or dangerous. She’s great on the trails because she loves it. I have 2 other mares that are happy to work when asked and are rewarded with days off to rest and days out in the field or on trails. We believe in being compassionate and fair. When they stop at a jump it is from greenness or rider error. We are neither stupid nor incompetent and have some really nice horses to show for it.
All horses will stop some time or other, pretty much. That is in the horse’s mind that something is amiss, or a moment of distraction…we just have to help the through these times. It is never right to blame a horse, we have to be on their side.
A horse never forgets, so if it has had a period of quitting at a fence in the past, until the rider has mastered the horse, it may still try that trick - be it loading into a trailer, grabbing grass when being led, etc.
A horse that has always been a good, honest jumper, may start to quit, and that is telling the rider/coach that something is wrong, or start of navicular, etc.
But horses are not machines. They are not computers. They have a mind, feelings, opinions, thoughts. They make their own decisions. You don’t just point and shoot and expect them to comply 100% all the time. If a horse is a dirty stopper it has made the decision for itself, for whatever reason, that it will not accept the rider’s request to go over the fence.
I feel strongly about this - it is up to the rider to have a rapport with the horse, have him be willing and trusting - if that is not there, then whatever. It may not be bad riding; it may just be a rider who is not experienced or unaware, and not giving the horse confidence… Horses are confidence givers, or confidence takers and need the appropriate rider.
Personally, I find that to be a fairly anthropomorphic point of view.
It is true that horses are not computers. But they are heavily pre-programmed with instinctive behaviors that are easily triggered. And, once they do something two or three times, they are quick to adapt and learn things we didn’t intend to teach.
“They make their own decisions” - eh, horses are one of the most impulsive, quick-on-the-trigger species, due to their pre-programming to get clear of a possible predator instantly, before the horse does any situational analysis. They react first, think second, or think not at all.
And they may be exhibiting learned behavior, especially if it has been repeated before. Behaviors that start for a specific reason can become a habit that has no more thinking behind it than a sudden reaction or a spook.
What we think is a ‘decision’ is almost always a reaction to something we haven’t understood well. And often a non-thinking reaction. Or a habit that started with such a reaction. We get much further in training problems with that point of view, rather than giving it all up because the horse ‘made a decision’ about their own ‘work ethic’. That’s not what happened. They don’t have the brain cells.
Horse is on the aids doing something it’s well accustomed to, educated for, and capable of doing. But then without warning evades and performs a maneuver in excess of a normal baulk or a spook, along with a maximum effort preformed in a way that leads a reasonable experienced equestrian to believe the intent was to unseat the rider.
I must agree with @chicagojumper and some other posters here. I don’t believe that a horse that gives no hint of stopping in front of a jump and then at the last moment slams brakes is a dirty stopper. A dirty stopper could be giving indications several strides out of a jump and still put in a dirty stop. They can have justified reasons for it, as with any stop.
IMO, a dirty stop is where the horse stops in such a way as to unseat the rider, assuming the rider has a decent seat and is confirmed in the level they are jumping. In a confirmed dirty stopper, this is often intentional, but can be unintentional in unconfirmed stoppers. This could include moves such as a dropped shoulder, a sudden spin, even a violently thrown head. My gelding the other day put in a sudden stop, in a grid that he’d been through several times already, but I wouldn’t call it even close to dirty because he kept straight and put his neck up to keep me in the saddle. If he had dropped a shoulder or spun out, I would have called it a dirty stop.
