What criteria do you have for a refusal to be considered "dirty"?

[OverandOnward]

@alterhorse

Horse is on the aids doing something it’s well accustomed to, educated for, and capable of doing. But then without warning evades and performs a maneuver in excess of a normal baulk or a spook, along with a maximum effort preformed in a way that leads a reasonable experienced equestrian to believe the intent was to unseat the rider.

And why does the horse abruptly want to unseat the rider? There is a reason, mystery though it is to us. It is our job to figure it out.

The good and the bad of horses is that their thinking power is definite and structured, but also very reactive. Can’t school that out, it’s part of their biology. They react very abruptly to stimuli we don’t notice or don’t consider significant. That is what it is to be a horse. And … to be a rider. A rider, not a passenger.

The horse is never going to solve this or figure it out for us. We are the ones with the big brains, they are the ones with the big hearts. Biologically speaking.

[thecolorcoal]

@OverandOnward

Personally, I find that to be a fairly anthropomorphic point of view.

It is true that horses are not computers. But they are heavily pre-programmed with instinctive behaviors that are easily triggered. And, once they do something two or three times, they are quick to adapt and learn things we didn’t intend to teach.

“They make their own decisions” - eh, horses are one of the most impulsive, quick-on-the-trigger species, due to their pre-programming to get clear of a possible predator instantly, before the horse does any situational analysis. They react first, think second, or think not at all.

And they may be exhibiting learned behavior, especially if it has been repeated before. Behaviors that start for a specific reason can become a habit that has no more thinking behind it than a sudden reaction or a spook.

What we think is a ‘decision’ is almost always a reaction to something we haven’t understood well. And often a non-thinking reaction. Or a habit that started with such a reaction. We get much further in training problems with that point of view, rather than giving it all up because the horse ‘made a decision’ about their own ‘work ethic’. That’s not what happened. They don’t have the brain cells.

I think this is quite an oversimplification of an incredibly intelligent, emotional animal. But I’m not going to derail with a “horse intelligence” debate. Though I will say that thoughts like the ones presented are the baseline for why animals are abused.

I KNOW two dirty stoppers. Both are horses of friends. Ironically, both are Morgans. Also ironically, both riders ride the jump before the jump presents itself and ignore the horse’s request to not have to jump it. Both do not care about being beaten severely after they refuse a jump (both are beaten severely). At the end of the day, one stopped due to pain (arthritis, he was too old) and one stopped due to bad riding/training (progressively got worse and worse when the rider became more and more defensive/anticipating a stop). Both went up to the jump SEEMING like they were going to go over it 100%, but ducked out at the last possible stride. Now, these horses could have been giving very small signals that riders and those observing can’t pick up, but are clear to the horse. An ear flick, a tail swish, maybe a shorter canter/trot stride. I don’t believe there are nasty horses who have it out for the riders, but I do believe, admittedly to @overandonward’s point, that after a number of refusals with an outcome that may not be as bad as what the horse percieved after jumping the fence, perhaps being hit with a crop several times (in this instance) is better than getting from a to b. Obviously, either these horses KNEW there was danger for both rider/horse if they jumped (in the case of the older morgan) or, the horse knew it would be making up for lack of correct riding (in the case of poor trainer/rider) and didn’t feel confident in his abilities/didn’t see the need.

[Foxtrot_s]

I’ve invariably found that horses’ adrenalin goes up when jumping so unless something is wrong, they will be willing to go.
Or they are bored out of their minds doing the same thing day in and day out. If they get smacked, then they are jumping because they fear the stick more than the consequence of what happens after the fence - pain, a jab

Either way, I’d have no desire to ride a horse who is not enjoying his work or willing.

[Denali6298]

@thecolorcoal

I think this is quite an oversimplification of an incredibly intelligent, emotional animal. But I’m not going to derail with a “horse intelligence” debate. Though I will say that thoughts like the ones presented are the baseline for why animals are abused.

I KNOW two dirty stoppers. Both are horses of friends. Ironically, both are Morgans. Also ironically, both riders ride the jump before the jump presents itself and ignore the horse’s request to not have to jump it. Both do not care about being beaten severely after they refuse a jump (both are beaten severely). At the end of the day, one stopped due to pain (arthritis, he was too old) and one stopped due to bad riding/training (progressively got worse and worse when the rider became more and more defensive/anticipating a stop). Both went up to the jump SEEMING like they were going to go over it 100%, but ducked out at the last possible stride. Now, these horses could have been giving very small signals that riders and those observing can’t pick up, but are clear to the horse. An ear flick, a tail swish, maybe a shorter canter/trot stride. I don’t believe there are nasty horses who have it out for the riders, but I do believe, admittedly to @overandonward’s point, that after a number of refusals with an outcome that may not be as bad as what the horse percieved after jumping the fence, perhaps being hit with a crop several times (in this instance) is better than getting from a to b. Obviously, either these horses KNEW there was danger for both rider/horse if they jumped (in the case of the older morgan) or, the horse knew it would be making up for lack of correct riding (in the case of poor trainer/rider) and didn’t feel confident in his abilities/didn’t see the need.

As described those horses are not dirty stoppers. They are horses piloted by ignorant riders.

[Farafieldfarm]

No such thing as a dirty stop.

[Brown_Derby]

@Farafieldfarm

No such thing as a dirty stop.

Yes there is. It’s called blaming the horse.

[Moesha]

Horses are far too individual to all be placed in narrow categories- for example a horse may tolerate one rider’s mistakes but for some reason will not go as well for another rider giving them a “better” ride…to me the term “dirty stop” is used when there was not reason for the horse to stop- or the horse made every appearance of going to the jump but then didn’t. Of course why could be a multitude of reasons- but just because a fence is small or the horse is scopey- does not mean the horse will go if you make a mistake such as dropping the horse or pulling on the reins- horses are not robots. Of course Dirty stoppers could be a result of training issues, health problems, etc. But I think the proper term is a horse that has been checked out and appears fine but will stop without warning - many are otherwise talented horses- but calling stops dirty is probably overused like many things.

[Moesha]

Just to add something the term cheap rail in a jumper class- of course there are times a light tap and the pole comes down while another horse practically slams into a fence and it stays up - but like the term Dirty Stop I hear Cheap Rail overused as well-

[AltersAreUs]

Those of you saying “there is no such thing as a dirty stopper” or “they need better riders” have obviously never had a pony mare with a “you gonna make me” attitude. We had one morgan/shetland cross that was dirty! Not just jumping, dirty all around. Pretty little dark dapple grey thing, cutest jump in the world … 95% of the time. That other 5% involved a 90+ degree spook w/ a dropped should and a rolling buck.

If you were cantering down a slope, she’d slam on the brakes, drop her head and throw a buck to try to lawn dart you. Didn’t matter what you were riding her in, she’d throw everything she had into the bridle to pull that maneuver. If she thought she could duck under a tree branch while trail riding and smack you, she would. She’d then spin, and duck under it again if you managed to avoid the first one. Couldn’t get too close to the walls of the indoor or she’d repeatedly bounce your leg off of them, leg & spur be damned. She would just stop, drop and roll on occasion if she couldn’t get you off any other way and she really wanted to be done. She was the reason why ponies get a bad rap!

I don’t think she was mentally off. She was fine in turnout with other horses, she learned things quickly if she saw something in it for her. She just saw no reason to play human games most of the time and was really good at coming up with new & creative ways to ditch her rider. She wasn’t in pain and was being ridden by some darn good little riders (all adults, didn’t dare put a child on her) and still eventually convinced them all that she wasn’t worth the effort.

She’s lucky she was so darn pretty because the only thing she was fit for was a pasture ornament.

[DMK]

I generally think of a dirty stop as something that happens with a horse who could not take a joke and was subjected to far too much bad comedy. But even after that, when they are getting a solid ride and they still very unexpectedly put in that last minute stop’ndrop.

Yes, we own it because we created it with bad riding and/or ignoring/not being able to diagnose pain. The difference is MOST horses, upon remedy of those issues and some solid time in therapy (aka damn near perfect riding) are pretty agreeable and will go on to a career where they get to the other side of almost all the fences and even have a limited tolerance for some minor jokes. Probably not egregious jokes and it is not to say they won’t stop, but they will telegraph their stop in advance.

But a tiny subset of those horses just do not go that way. I’m sure there is SOME reason that makes perfect sense to that horse as to why they pull out the late stop and duck out, but I’m equally on board to say nobody (DVMs and amazing riders/handlers and trainers alike) is figuring out what it is or finding a way to safely and ethically resolve it. That’s hopefully a horse who finds another career.

And just to clarify a few points:

1. a great many solid horse people can use the term “dirty stop” and NOT anthropomorphize the situation.
2. Those same horse people can recognize the stop is dirty and not the horse.
3. They are not blaming the horse by using the term
4. They can call a stop “dirty” and spend more money than you can imagine ruling out pain
5. They can use that term competently to describe a specific act AND still understand all the environmental influences that led up to it, and act to correct those influences.

So if you are casting a wide swathe with those kind of generalizations, just do yourself an internet favor and stop.

[McGurk]

@Moesha,

I think the term “cheap rail” is a useful descriptive term. When a horse with the scope and ability to jump the fence gets to the correct distance and with the correct balance and impulsion, and still pulls a rail, that’s a “cheap rail.” As opposed to one caused by rider error or a horse at the outside limits of their ability.

I had a very talented horse in the barn that had a bad habit of “cheap rails.” It turned out to be rider related, no surprise. We took off the leg protection while schooling, coached the rider and did some interesting gymnastics and the problem mostly abated.

Calling it a “cheap rail” doesn’t absolve riding as the culprit, just like calling it a “dirty stop” doesn’t absolve bad riding or training - both are descriptions, not value judgements.

@DMK, awesome post, wish I could like it more than once.

[50ShadesOfHay]

With Olive Juice… sorry couldn’t resist.

I don’t really put stops into categories, some are more of a ‘drive by’ then a stop per say, if you aren’t direct enough, but as others have said a horse that stops has a habit and that was either created out of fear, poor riding, or a horse that is in pain.

[DMK]

Moesha, McGurk, I had a friend who pointed out a lot of those “cheap” rails were not so very cheap as they ended up costing her 5 figures!

[Engage]

@DMK

2. Those same horse people can recognize the stop is dirty and not the horse.
3. They are not blaming the horse by using the term

These points are invaluable to this discussion.

[OverandOnward]

In terms of a mutually-understood technical description of a horse with irregular jumping form … Maybe it’s time to stop using the pejorative term “dirty stopper” and say something more accurate and clearly understood, such as the level of riding skill needed to successfully pilot the horse around courses on a consistent basis. Or the maintenance needed to keep the horse comfortable and jumping. Or something.

“Needs a rider with intermediate or better skills who remains alert and aware of her horse’s sensitivities throughout the course, even after sterling jumps.”

“Rider must put in constructive homework on a regular basis, with an intelligent and humane trainer who relates to an athletic horse with an inconsistent riding background.”

“Needs $X in ongoing arthritis therapy for a back that can twinge during a jumping course. Expect to retire this horse from jumping within the next two years.”

“Should be carefully and knowledgeably re-schooled and re-introduced to showing, expecting bad experiences from the past to continue to crop up. Next rider must be patient, calm and have relaxed expectations.”

“Goes well for a rider that rides well. Goes badly for a rider that rides badly.”

Etc.

Of course that’s going to affect the price.

[findeight]

You think people don’t like the term dirty stopper? Try using horse will not tolerate bad riding or mistakes and see how they react…especially if they were the rider.

[OverandOnward]

@findeight

You think people don’t like the term dirty stopper? Try using horse will not tolerate bad riding or mistakes and see how they react…especially if they were the rider.

Yeah, kind the whole point of this thread, isn’t it.

[keatssu]

@AltersAreUs

Those of you saying “there is no such thing as a dirty stopper” or “they need better riders” have obviously never had a pony mare with a “you gonna make me” attitude. We had one morgan/shetland cross that was dirty! Not just jumping, dirty all around. Pretty little dark dapple grey thing, cutest jump in the world … 95% of the time. That other 5% involved a 90+ degree spook w/ a dropped should and a rolling buck.

If you were cantering down a slope, she’d slam on the brakes, drop her head and throw a buck to try to lawn dart you. Didn’t matter what you were riding her in, she’d throw everything she had into the bridle to pull that maneuver. If she thought she could duck under a tree branch while trail riding and smack you, she would. She’d then spin, and duck under it again if you managed to avoid the first one. Couldn’t get too close to the walls of the indoor or she’d repeatedly bounce your leg off of them, leg & spur be damned. She would just stop, drop and roll on occasion if she couldn’t get you off any other way and she really wanted to be done. She was the reason why ponies get a bad rap!

I don’t think she was mentally off. She was fine in turnout with other horses, she learned things quickly if she saw something in it for her. She just saw no reason to play human games most of the time and was really good at coming up with new & creative ways to ditch her rider. She wasn’t in pain and was being ridden by some darn good little riders (all adults, didn’t dare put a child on her) and still eventually convinced them all that she wasn’t worth the effort.

She’s lucky she was so darn pretty because the only thing she was fit for was a pasture ornament.

I have one just like her, who I described in an earlier post in this thread. Connemara pony mare. Piece of work.

[Moesha]

@DMK

Moesha, McGurk, I had a friend who pointed out a lot of those “cheap” rails were not so very cheap as they ended up costing her 5 figures!

@DMK This made my day LOLOL Happy New Year!!!

[DMK]

right back atcha, dahlink!