I hear it and see it in ads all the time: “almost confirmed in lateral work” “confirmed changes”… I’m assuming this is a way of measuring a horses mastery of a movement but what exactly does it mean?
Generally speaking, a horse is considered to be confirmed in a movement if it is so well trained and experienced with that movement that it will perform it reliably if the rider asks for it in a reasonably correct way, without any extraordinary preparation or unusually ‘loud’ aids.
For example, today a horse might a have a big, clean change ONLY if perfectly set up and aided by an experienced rider. In time (and with good training) that horse will become confirmed enough that it will offer a clean change even if the rider’s timing or set up isn’t optimal. (It will likely deteriorate if not maintained by a more experienced rider, however.)
It’s the equivalent of a horse that is so honest over fences that it will jump from pretty much any spot the rider gets it to. (See caveat above.)
Agree - the horse will execute the movement with a variety of riders who are competent themselves at that movement (ie know how to correctly aid and ride the movement). The horse does not require special preparation or rider assistance to be able to execute.
A schoolmaster will execute the movement with a rider who is not particularly competent in the aids or without optimal preparation.
[QUOTE=honeylips;7935466]
A schoolmaster will execute the movement with a rider who is not particularly competent in the aids or without optimal preparation.[/QUOTE]
That is a great way to explain a schoolmaster! I have tried to convey that thought - a confirmed horse is not necessarily a schoolmaster. A schoolmaster is more “tolerant” of aid errors and aid noise.
I’d also add, I generally think of “confirmed” to include show results with decent scores. More then just one or two scores, enough to show the horse is consistent with the movement even away from home.
To me, a horse that is confirmed in a movement, will, when the rider gives the aids automatically give the correct response. To the rider it almost feels that all they need to do is “think” the movement.
Here are the terms I’d use to describe a horse’s change:
Green - gives the right response some of the time, when asked correctly by a rider who knows the movement and knows the horse/sets it up as it needs. Incorrect responses can vary from almost there (late behind), to hilarious (sideways canter), to explosive (jumping a foot off the ground and landing in a pile).
Confirmed - gives the right response nearly all of the time, when asked correctly by a rider who knows the movement.
Easy - gives the right response nearly all of the time when the rider just thinks about the movement. Someone with little experience in the movement could produce it on this horse without much difficulty.
Schoolmaster Type #1 - gives the right response whenever he is able to guess at what the rider is trying to do, even if it does not even resemble the correct aid.
Schoolmaster Type #2 - gives no response until the rider gives the correct aid, then gives the correct response.
[QUOTE=MysticOakRanch;7936009]
That is a great way to explain a schoolmaster! I have tried to convey that thought - a confirmed horse is not necessarily a schoolmaster. A schoolmaster is more “tolerant” of aid errors and aid noise.
I’d also add, I generally think of “confirmed” to include show results with decent scores. More then just one or two scores, enough to show the horse is consistent with the movement even away from home.[/QUOTE]
I agree with this definition of both the word “schoolmaster” and the word “confirmed.” Scores (at least 60%) confirm that the horse performs the movement or the level correctly.
But in the absence of scores, I would say that the movement is only confirmed if the horse gives the correct response to correct aids 100% of the time.
[QUOTE=joiedevie99;7936312]
Here are the terms I’d use to describe a horse’s change:
Green - gives the right response some of the time, when asked correctly by a rider who knows the movement and knows the horse/sets it up as it needs. Incorrect responses can vary from almost there (late behind), to hilarious (sideways canter), to explosive (jumping a foot off the ground and landing in a pile).
Confirmed - gives the right response nearly all of the time, when asked correctly by a rider who knows the movement.
Easy - gives the right response nearly all of the time when the rider just thinks about the movement. Someone with little experience in the movement could produce it on this horse without much difficulty.
Schoolmaster Type #1 - gives the right response whenever he is able to guess at what the rider is trying to do, even if it does not even resemble the correct aid.
Schoolmaster Type #2 - gives no response until the rider gives the correct aid, then gives the correct response.[/QUOTE]
This is a great list. I’d also like to add the following:
Schoolmaster Type #3 - very experienced horse who plays with the rider by piaffing instead of doing a working trot, or doing a mix of ones, twos, or threes, when the rider really only wants one change, or doing all sorts of thing until the rider gives the correct aids. Typically a retired GP horse who knows his job very well, but has a sense of humor.
confirmed to me means some sort of proven record or score that is decent (60s)- ie- the horse can produce the movement in a “pressure” environment and remain on the aids and focused.
Its not just doing a movement, its the mechanics + quality of the movement.
To me “almost confirmed” equals “schooling”.
[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;7936325]
Schoolmaster Type #3 - very experienced horse who plays with the rider by piaffing instead of doing a working trot, or doing a mix of ones, twos, or threes, when the rider really only wants one change, or doing all sorts of thing until the rider gives the correct aids. Typically a retired GP horse who knows his job very well, but has a sense of humor.[/QUOTE]
i just want to say - i’ve been on one of those! the first time i sat on a schoolmaster was my first ride in college on the IDA team - i hadn’t even swung my leg over the stirrup before he was off at a very, very animated piaffe! he had a sense of humor about the situation… i was horrified i couldn’t even get him to stand still :eek:
[QUOTE=beowulf;7936537]
i just want to say - i’ve been on one of those! the first time i sat on a schoolmaster was my first ride in college on the IDA team - i hadn’t even swung my leg over the stirrup before he was off at a very, very animated piaffe! he had a sense of humor about the situation… i was horrified i couldn’t even get him to stand still :eek:[/QUOTE]
I’ve heard so many of the same stories. I have to think these horses know exactly what they are doing :lol:
[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;7936555]
I’ve heard so many of the same stories. I have to think these horses know exactly what they are doing :lol:[/QUOTE]
they are teaching us humans to be humble, i think :winkgrin:
[QUOTE=joiedevie99;7936312]
Here are the terms I’d use to describe a horse’s change:
Green - gives the right response some of the time, when asked correctly by a rider who knows the movement and knows the horse/sets it up as it needs. Incorrect responses can vary from almost there (late behind), to hilarious (sideways canter), to explosive (jumping a foot off the ground and landing in a pile).
Confirmed - gives the right response nearly all of the time, when asked correctly by a rider who knows the movement.
Easy - gives the right response nearly all of the time when the rider just thinks about the movement. Someone with little experience in the movement could produce it on this horse without much difficulty.
Schoolmaster Type #1 - gives the right response whenever he is able to guess at what the rider is trying to do, even if it does not even resemble the correct aid.
Schoolmaster Type #2 - gives no response until the rider gives the correct aid, then gives the correct response.[/QUOTE]
This is very interesting…I recently tried out a Second Level horse who was described as “almost confirmed in her changes”. I have very little experience doing flying changes and did not intend to try any of them during the ride. However, as we were cantering around and I went to ask for a simple change, she threw me a nice clean flying change. Her trainer was very impressed and said she is usually late behind. So now I’m confused… was that just a fluke on a horse who should still be considered green? Even though she gave a clean change to a rider who had no idea how to ask for it?
Yeah, I’d consider that a happy accident. Wouldn’t expect that response every time considering the description of the horse, and the trainer’s surprise when it happened.
That said, I’d be pleased with a horse who decided to offer a change. A lot of horses will mix up the aids for a simple change vs flying change when they are learning- the fact that the horse was a good sport about it and made an effort even if it was the wrong one, would tell me a lot about its basic temperament, rideability, and previous training.
^^^Yes, sometimes it is good to push some buttons, try some things the horse doesn’t have confirmed yet, or doesn’t know at all, just to see how it handles things.
I thought it referred in part to ability to recite the catechism. A little time on Wiki teaches me that is not true for Catholics. Might be true for horses, come to think of it…
[QUOTE=honeylips;7935466]
A schoolmaster will execute the movement with a rider who is not particularly competent in the aids or without optimal preparation.[/QUOTE]
I will disagree with this definition of a schoolmaster. A true schoolmaster (like the one I am lucky enough to have in my backyard now!) should NOT “give away” movements. While a good schoolmaster for an ammie should be able to tolerate inept aids without having a coniption, he should not respond with X until the rider manages to get the timing and application of the aids for X reasonably correct.
I would consider joiedevie’s “Type 1” horse above more of a “school horse” suitable for a lesson program than a true dressage (or whatever discipline) “schoolmaster.” (I have one of those in my back yard, too, permanent bearer of the official title Best Horse in the World Ever.)
[QUOTE=honeylips;7935466]
Agree - the horse will execute the movement with a variety of riders who are competent themselves at that movement (ie know how to correctly aid and ride the movement). The horse does not require special preparation or rider assistance to be able to execute.
A schoolmaster will execute the movement with a rider who is not particularly competent in the aids or without optimal preparation.[/QUOTE]
Au contraire! My schoolmaster does pretty much what I ask for, whether it’s what I meant or not. If I don’t apply the correct aid, I don’t get the intended response. When I’m right, he’s right. If I’m not right, it can be a crap shoot. He tolerates my mistakes and doesn’t get flustered but he’s no mind reader.
[QUOTE=atlatl;7937223]
Au contraire! My schoolmaster does pretty much what I ask for, whether it’s what I meant or not. If I don’t apply the correct aid, I don’t get the intended response. When I’m right, he’s right. If I’m not right, it can be a crap shoot. He tolerates my mistakes and doesn’t get flustered but he’s no mind reader.[/QUOTE]
I think there are different types, but this is the type of schoolmaster I prefer. I want them to RESPOND. However, if I’m asking incorrectly I want them to respond with what I’m asking for. And I don’t want them to get flustered or PO’d while I struggle to get it right. In my experience, this type of schoolmaster takes less trainer maintenance, as it is always looking to respond according to your aids and when you get them right gives the right answer.
The instructor I had while growing up had a wonderful Morgan mare, Sassy, who was a great “schoolmaster” for up/down lessons. If the rider bobbled to much in the trot while posting she would stop. If you gave the wrong cue for canter, she would kick the arena wall and would not do a canter depart until you got it right.
