May be I read wrong but if the semen you purchased was "used"on a different person’s mare how could the subsequent foal be registered? I guess there are ways but the only one I can think of is that the certificate was issued by the semen supplier … is that how?
Actually, any time I’ve purchased semen it’s the broker who issues the BC, so they can give it to whoever.
Of course, most registries are still going to request DNA tests on the foal, just like every other foal.
I too have had several doses of frozen semen go missing
Firstly, i had 2 doses of Depardieu just disappear from my vets storage tank, i didnt find this out until i bought my own tank and had all the semen shipped from my tank to theirs
As this vet had also charged me $24 000 for breeding season costs for absolutely no pregnancies , we were not exactly on good terms
I did try to chase it up but they just denied any knowledge of it
2 years ago i bought 2 doses of Wolkenstein 11 from a lady who stored it with a vet, and had it shipped to my vet
Only 4 straws arrived, not 16
The vet that sent the semen had a record of shipping 16 straws, the vet that received it had no record of anything but only had 4 straws of it
So obviously it got lost at the second vets or used by someone else
It took nearly 2 years to get the receiving vet to pay for the semen through their insurance, which i found absolutely unbelievable
Anyway these things happen
As to semen brokers, i once said somethign about the price of semen on forums and had a broker phone me and abuse me for it - how dare i say the semen was too expensive blah blah
And yes, when things go wrong it can get very sticky
I find now that i do my own breeding work, if i want to report that the semen is poor quality, which i have done once in 5 years, then i am simply not believed and have no recourse at all
This is because i am not a vet and therefore not credible, so it seems
I have also had straws explode in the water bath, and have had some straws that split during insemination
I have been unable to have these straws replaced for the same reason
Paulamc
[QUOTE=honeylips;5673277]
the Westfalian Verband is the association of the breeders and is a separate business entity from the Landgestuet NRW. Just like the Hanoverian Verband is separate from the Landgestuet Celle. The Landgestuets are state sponsored/owned and the employees are state employees.[/QUOTE]
I have had only good experiences with Westphalians for USA, and she keeps excellent records…seen them for myself.
ugh…my experience with Westphalians for USA was very, very far from good…or even marginally acceptable.
OK I have had so many PM’s asking who the broker was for the frozen I am just posting it here. The Broker who ‘LOST’ the semen and recommended that I purchase NEW AT THE INCREASED PRICE from A-1 performance Sires (BTW I was told is, one of her partners)is
Dr. Andrea Sieg, of Westphalians for USA.
PLEASE before you decide I need a flame suit, anyone is always welcome to ask me to post ALL of the email traffic over this situation or even to email it to them privately. it just gets lengthly!
Also a couple of people have suggested that I re-purchase the Florestan semen from A-1 at the increased price. Sorry but NFW!!! Unless the Westphalian Verband and management at the state organization (Ministeroum fuer Landwirtschaft und Forsten) in Germany step in and remove this broker from being the only source of their frozen semen import into the USA I will NEVER breed to another Westphalian stallion.
Let’s also be clear on another point! This semen was sold to me by the person who purchased it from Andrea in the first place.
ANDREA WAS ASKED HER PERMISSION IN WRITING VIA EMAIL PRIOR TO THE SALE TAKING PLACE!!
APPROVAL WAS GIVEN IN WRITING VIA EMAIL ALSO
ANDREA OFFERED TO STORE THE SEMEN OR SHIP IT THEN. ALSO IN AN EMAIL
ANDREA ALSO STATED CLEARLY BEFORE I PURCHASED THE SEMEN FROM SUSAN THAT THE STORAGE FOR 2010 WAS COMPLETELY PAID UP
Andrea is apparently the source for the semen from A-1 also. Ann was informed as to what was going on. although very polite about the situation she did not step in and say she would replace this semen either. I was just expected to think paying an additional large amount of money for something that was already owned by me, was just fine! Sorry NOT!
This is like a storage company coming back and you paying your fees for the year and them saying well you cannot have your belongings because you need to give us more money! We are selling those belongings to someone else because they will pay us more for them now! NO WAY!
Clearly Andrea still had/has Florestan Semen in stock (as is listed on her web site!) She did not WISH to honor the previous purchase of the two doses of Florestan semen. Because she could get more from someone else as I guess you cannot tell one dose from another.
Furthermore I have received PM’s from another person stating that AFTER Andrea told me she did not have my two doses of Florestan semen, she proceeded to sell this other COTH member TWO DOSES OF FLORESTAN semen! Well if she did not have my two doses how did she get two doses to sell the COTHer who PM’d me??
Andrea clearly had Florestan semen in stock that she could have sent me. She was NOT honoring the fact that this semen had been paid for YEARS before and that the purchaser had PAID years of storage fees. Andrea informed the original purchaser of the semen that she was paid up for the storage of her semen for the entire year of 2010, yet when she sent me a bill for the same semen the storage fees were from October of 2010! Keep in mind all of this has a very very clear paper trail.
I see no reason why any business person in their right mind would have another business tell them their stock was ‘lost’ yet then expect their client to repurchase the product at the NEW INCREASED PRICE.
I am in the process of writing a formal letter (and possibly even sending it through State) to the State of Westphalia about this behavior.
Andrea has not only shafted me but has behaved this way towards other people. RUMOR has it she is somehow related to someone high in the Westphalian Organization in Germany (Ministeroum fuer Landwirtschaft und Forsten)
as she had mentioned on the phone something about GOOD LUCK with complaining in Germany. See how far that goes! And then a snicker. That was especially annoying considering I had a lovely international GP mare to breed to Florestan again ON THE ADVICE of a MEMBER of the GOV Inspection team NO LESS!!! I cannot wait until he hears what happened to my taking his advice and trying to rebreed this fantastic GERMAN FN RANKED 10th in the GP SPECIAL before her import, MARE to Florestan.
Still I am sure one of the lovely Dutch Stallions I will use in the future will do just as well! Just not one from Blue Hors either!
I wish these people in Europe would wake up and smell the coffee about the people they are giving EXCLUSIVES to! I just don’t need their semen that badly!! And I am guessing lots of other Americans get fed up with the rip offs too! Most just go quietly away unlike some of us who just get too annoyed to quit!
If you like me are upset about the situation and have a similar story I am writing a formal letter about what happened to me to be forwarded to the German State overseer responsible for Westphalian Stud getting their funding. If you would like to join me in my complaint with one of your own, please feel free to email me. Please do make sure you accounting is short and factual though. There is language translation to deal with.
I wouldn’t worry about that so much; most Germans speak some English.
Good for you for doing this. I’ve long thought that some of these semen brokers are doing enough underhanded things as it is…stuff like selling a 6 straw per dose breeding, but only sending 4 straws ('cause who knows, right?) and retaining the other 2 for them selves.
The problem is they are not required to supply any of the paperwork they get (if they get it) from the stallion station THEY order it from. You simply must take their word for it.
This is one reason I’ve stayed away from frozen (the other is I have the worst luck in the world…)
I, too, had, shall we say - a very interesting encounter with her. I found one of the stallions I wanted in the dam line of a really nice stallion here in the States, so she lost out on that one. Now I’d like to find a Fürst Piccolo stallion son here so I don’t ever have to deal with her.
Actually I was just told by a friend that this exclusive thing is against European law. So whoever wants to buy semen they have to sell it to.
And I would just go ahead and ask the State Stud Westfalia whether this is really true and that person is the only source for semen in the US and yes there will be for sure people that speak well enough english ! (you could even call, just keep in mind that germany is 6 hours ahead of New York / Toronto timezone. So you need to call in the morning your time.
I asked a broker a few simple questions since I had a previously bad experience and was told that I didn’t need to be breeding AI if my vet wasn’t better prepared. From someone who knows nothing about the quality of my vet. GEESH
Somewhere along the line maybe they have forgotten that we are the one paying the $$$.
I will say that the frozen sale for me was a done deal until that person said that…no thanks.
[QUOTE=alexandra;5676124]
Actually I was just told by a friend that this exclusive thing is against European law. So whoever wants to buy semen they have to sell it to.
Yes but I dont know if you are aware of say the Wendy Arzt fiasco, where she had the Maas Hell people (Calido 1 etc) convinced that she had this exclusive contract with their former manager etc, and that if they dared to sell to anyone else she would drag their a** through high water etc.
They didnt know what to do, so opted to do nothing, and not let anyone else handle the North America end, even though, as you say, in Europe there is no legal option for exclusivity.
Sometimes we have had a type of exclusivity on certain stallions, in the sense that the SO/manager would agree to pass on all contacts interested to us, because they were happy dealing with us, but that is a “handshake” type of thing, good intention, bon volonte, dont know how you say it in English really.
[QUOTE=Kyzteke;5675925]
I wouldn’t worry about that so much; most Germans speak some English.
Good for you for doing this. I’ve long thought that some of these semen brokers are doing enough underhanded things as it is…stuff like selling a 6 straw per dose breeding, but only sending 4 straws ('cause who knows, right?) and retaining the other 2 for them selves.
The problem is they are not required to supply any of the paperwork they get (if they get it) from the stallion station THEY order it from. You simply must take their word for it.
This is one reason I’ve stayed away from frozen (the other is I have the worst luck in the world…)[/QUOTE]
That is too bad. I always showed a client how many straws I got in a dose if they asked for proof. It isnt about what you are required to do, it is about doing it right. It would be easy enough, anyway for a client to ask the freezing station how many straws were in said dose.
But sometimes, different freezings/dates from the same stallion have more or less straws. As long as it makes the right amount of sperm, it doesnt really matter.
The only question that matters to ask is, “how many mares got first cycle pregnant on how many tries with said semen?”
[QUOTE=imajacres;5676534]
[QUOTE=alexandra;5676124]Actually I was just told by a friend that this exclusive thing is against European law. So whoever wants to buy semen they have to sell it to.
Yes but I dont know if you are aware of say the Wendy Arzt fiasco, where she had the Maas Hell people (Calido 1 etc) convinced that she had this exclusive contract with their former manager etc, and that if they dared to sell to anyone else she would drag their a** through high water etc.
They didnt know what to do, so opted to do nothing, and not let anyone else handle the North America end, even though, as you say, in Europe there is no legal option for exclusivity.
Sometimes we have had a type of exclusivity on certain stallions, in the sense that the SO/manager would agree to pass on all contacts interested to us, because they were happy dealing with us, but that is a “handshake” type of thing, good intention, bon volonte, dont know how you say it in English really.[/QUOTE]
Well than the scenario you describe above with Hell could be called blackmail.
If any stud in Europe does not sell you anything you could go to court and have them to. Court would not be interested in the fact that another person in the US, Aus, CDN or Africa is jumping up and down and telling the SO that he/she had an exclusive right. SO can not do anything about a court decision, so the peson thinking he she is exclusive partner has to accept that.
I can understand that for a broker / agent it is important that no other is doing or carrying the same. But I can also see a lot of people that shy away from all the paperwork and costs involved to import just a few doses. And hence there will always be those agents and brokers.
[QUOTE=Bellfleur;5675873]
OK I have had so many PM’s asking who the broker was for the frozen I am just posting it here. The Broker who ‘LOST’ the semen and recommended that I purchase NEW AT THE INCREASED PRICE from A-1 performance Sires (BTW I was told is, one of her partners)is
Dr. Andrea Sieg, of Westphalians for USA.
PLEASE before you decide I need a flame suit, anyone is always welcome to ask me to post ALL of the email traffic over this situation or even to email it to them privately. it just gets lengthly!
Also a couple of people have suggested that I re-purchase the Florestan semen from A-1 at the increased price. Sorry but NFW!!! Unless the Westphalian Verband and management at the state organization (Ministeroum fuer Landwirtschaft und Forsten) in Germany step in and remove this broker from being the only source of their frozen semen import into the USA I will NEVER breed to another Westphalian stallion.
Let’s also be clear on another point! This semen was sold to me by the person who purchased it from Andrea in the first place.
ANDREA WAS ASKED HER PERMISSION IN WRITING VIA EMAIL PRIOR TO THE SALE TAKING PLACE!!
APPROVAL WAS GIVEN IN WRITING VIA EMAIL ALSO
ANDREA OFFERED TO STORE THE SEMEN OR SHIP IT THEN. ALSO IN AN EMAIL
ANDREA ALSO STATED CLEARLY BEFORE I PURCHASED THE SEMEN FROM SUSAN THAT THE STORAGE FOR 2010 WAS COMPLETELY PAID UP
Andrea is apparently the source for the semen from A-1 also. Ann was informed as to what was going on. although very polite about the situation she did not step in and say she would replace this semen either. I was just expected to think paying an additional large amount of money for something that was already owned by me, was just fine! Sorry NOT!
This is like a storage company coming back and you paying your fees for the year and them saying well you cannot have your belongings because you need to give us more money! We are selling those belongings to someone else because they will pay us more for them now! NO WAY!
Clearly Andrea still had/has Florestan Semen in stock (as is listed on her web site!) She did not WISH to honor the previous purchase of the two doses of Florestan semen. Because she could get more from someone else as I guess you cannot tell one dose from another.
Furthermore I have received PM’s from another person stating that AFTER Andrea told me she did not have my two doses of Florestan semen, she proceeded to sell this other COTH member TWO DOSES OF FLORESTAN semen! Well if she did not have my two doses how did she get two doses to sell the COTHer who PM’d me??
Andrea clearly had Florestan semen in stock that she could have sent me. She was NOT honoring the fact that this semen had been paid for YEARS before and that the purchaser had PAID years of storage fees. Andrea informed the original purchaser of the semen that she was paid up for the storage of her semen for the entire year of 2010, yet when she sent me a bill for the same semen the storage fees were from October of 2010! Keep in mind all of this has a very very clear paper trail.
I see no reason why any business person in their right mind would have another business tell them their stock was ‘lost’ yet then expect their client to repurchase the product at the NEW INCREASED PRICE.
I am in the process of writing a formal letter (and possibly even sending it through State) to the State of Westphalia about this behavior.
Andrea has not only shafted me but has behaved this way towards other people. RUMOR has it she is somehow related to someone high in the Westphalian Organization in Germany (Ministeroum fuer Landwirtschaft und Forsten)
as she had mentioned on the phone something about GOOD LUCK with complaining in Germany. See how far that goes! And then a snicker. That was especially annoying considering I had a lovely international GP mare to breed to Florestan again ON THE ADVICE of a MEMBER of the GOV Inspection team NO LESS!!! I cannot wait until he hears what happened to my taking his advice and trying to rebreed this fantastic GERMAN FN RANKED 10th in the GP SPECIAL before her import, MARE to Florestan.
Still I am sure one of the lovely Dutch Stallions I will use in the future will do just as well! Just not one from Blue Hors either!
I wish these people in Europe would wake up and smell the coffee about the people they are giving EXCLUSIVES to! I just don’t need their semen that badly!! And I am guessing lots of other Americans get fed up with the rip offs too! Most just go quietly away unlike some of us who just get too annoyed to quit!
If you like me are upset about the situation and have a similar story I am writing a formal letter about what happened to me to be forwarded to the German State overseer responsible for Westphalian Stud getting their funding. If you would like to join me in my complaint with one of your own, please feel free to email me. Please do make sure you accounting is short and factual though. There is language translation to deal with.[/QUOTE]
When did you ask for these doses? I’m curious as I emailed them about two months ago about Florestan semen for my mare and they had some in stock. I’m glad I decided not to buy.:eek:
While I certainly have my quota of negative stories regarding FS, let me briefly give a shout out to Jeannette Nijhof and Oregon State University. When to our dismay my vet discovered 3 straws of Calvados and 5 straws of Prestige in a dose of FS as he prepared to inseminate our jumper mare, we contacted the University who had been storing the FS for the party from whom I had purchased it. While it did take several emails and phone calls, Jeannette arranged to have a full dose of Calvados sent from California to “make me whole”. Not without tarring the person that I had originally purchased it from with the brush of “thief” however!
We always laugh that there must be a big, chestnut horse about, performing dressage but with a terrific and inexplicable jump!
[QUOTE=alexandra;5676124]
Actually I was just told by a friend that this exclusive thing is against European law. So whoever wants to buy semen they have to sell it to…[/QUOTE]
Alexandra, I am not a lawyer but a quick read through the the document linked below suggests that your friend is not strictly correct.
Distinctions exist between “commercial agents” and “independent traders”; the former appears to be allowed under EU law while the latter may present legal problems under EU competition law.
Finally, the law seems to be concerned about trade within the EU between member states. An agency agreement with an entity outside of the EU (for example, with a US entity) that does not meet the criteria for “commercial agent” may not pose a legal problem.
I suspect most “exclusive agents” for semen in the USA do not meet the standard for “commercial agents” as they do not meet the criteria noted in the document (meaning that are not true “agents” in the principal-agents sense of law and legal theory) but are instead trading for their own account and do intend to limit supply and therefore drive up the price. But whether this is a concern for EU law when the agency contract is between an EU entity and a non-EU entity is a question for lawyers and other experts, not me.
My hunch is that EU law would not be concerned about who anyone sells to or limits sales outside of the EU to as long as there is no market-distortion intent or result.
http://ec.europa.eu/competition/antitrust/legislation/notice_exclusive_contracts_en.pdf
Tom I think, I came ftrom a different direction so to say:
If I beeing a US breeder wanting to breed to a stallion xyz and call in Germany to buy and import some frozen and than the station tells me no I do not sell to you, I understand that I could go after that station that it has to sell me the semen as they are an EU based company and hence underlying EU law.
I do not even look at the fact that there is an agent dealing with the stallion station or not and whether this agent is an agent or not looking at it from lawside.
Am just looking at the situation between a person who wants to buy and the company not wanting to sell to that person.
The above information of non existing exclusiveness came from someone working for a stallion station in Germany by the way… I am no layer, am not in the situation, but there are enough lawyers in the EU who should be able to deal with such topics.
And hiring a lawyer is in Germany much much cheaper than in the US.
Alexandra, we are not lawyers so we are speculating. Here is my speculation:
Anybody within the EU is free to sell or not to sell to whomever he or she wishes as long as the decision not to sell is not based on discrimination against a protected feature (age, sex, race, etc.) or the desire to distort competion and thereby increase prices or otherwise harm consumer welfare.
Much of EU commercial law, it seems to me, is designed to foster competition and to restrict anti-competitive practices with respect to business activities across EU states. I fail to see how EU law would speak to a business transaction between a German stallion owner, for example, and a US breeder. If there were law speaking to this type of commercial transaction it would likely be German law and not EU law.
I believe the Holsteiner Verband is perfectly entitled to limit the sale of semen, as it does, from certain stallions to members of the Verband who are using Holsteiner mares, who bring these mares to the designated station, and who previously have used younger stallions – all requirements for using some other their older stallions and stallions in top sport. If someone from within or outside the EU asked for semen from one of these restricted stallions the answer would be “NO” unless they met all the conditions.
Likewise within Ireland Morningside Stud restricts the sale of semen to breeders who are members of and are breeding within the Warmblood Studbook of Ireland. Nobody is going to tell me that I have to make my stallions available to the Irish Sport Horse Studbook.
Did you know the young stallion from France: Don Juan de Huis? (Jazz)
Google him-Videos on Youtube!
After going through all test end of 2011 his seemen will be avaible at Carol Austin www.superiorequinesires.com
[QUOTE=Bellfleur;5675873]
OK I have had so many PM’s asking who the broker was for the frozen I am just posting it here. The Broker who ‘LOST’ the semen and recommended that I purchase NEW AT THE INCREASED PRICE from A-1 performance Sires (BTW I was told is, one of her partners)is
Dr. Andrea Sieg, of Westphalians for USA.
PLEASE before you decide I need a flame suit, anyone is always welcome to ask me to post ALL of the email traffic over this situation or even to email it to them privately. it just gets lengthly!
Also a couple of people have suggested that I re-purchase the Florestan semen from A-1 at the increased price. Sorry but NFW!!! Unless the Westphalian Verband and management at the state organization (Ministeroum fuer Landwirtschaft und Forsten) in Germany step in and remove this broker from being the only source of their frozen semen import into the USA I will NEVER breed to another Westphalian stallion.
Let’s also be clear on another point! This semen was sold to me by the person who purchased it from Andrea in the first place.
ANDREA WAS ASKED HER PERMISSION IN WRITING VIA EMAIL PRIOR TO THE SALE TAKING PLACE!!
APPROVAL WAS GIVEN IN WRITING VIA EMAIL ALSO
ANDREA OFFERED TO STORE THE SEMEN OR SHIP IT THEN. ALSO IN AN EMAIL
ANDREA ALSO STATED CLEARLY BEFORE I PURCHASED THE SEMEN FROM SUSAN THAT THE STORAGE FOR 2010 WAS COMPLETELY PAID UP
Andrea is apparently the source for the semen from A-1 also. Ann was informed as to what was going on. although very polite about the situation she did not step in and say she would replace this semen either. I was just expected to think paying an additional large amount of money for something that was already owned by me, was just fine! Sorry NOT!
This is like a storage company coming back and you paying your fees for the year and them saying well you cannot have your belongings because you need to give us more money! We are selling those belongings to someone else because they will pay us more for them now! NO WAY!
Clearly Andrea still had/has Florestan Semen in stock (as is listed on her web site!) She did not WISH to honor the previous purchase of the two doses of Florestan semen. Because she could get more from someone else as I guess you cannot tell one dose from another.
Furthermore I have received PM’s from another person stating that AFTER Andrea told me she did not have my two doses of Florestan semen, she proceeded to sell this other COTH member TWO DOSES OF FLORESTAN semen! Well if she did not have my two doses how did she get two doses to sell the COTHer who PM’d me??
Andrea clearly had Florestan semen in stock that she could have sent me. She was NOT honoring the fact that this semen had been paid for YEARS before and that the purchaser had PAID years of storage fees. Andrea informed the original purchaser of the semen that she was paid up for the storage of her semen for the entire year of 2010, yet when she sent me a bill for the same semen the storage fees were from October of 2010! Keep in mind all of this has a very very clear paper trail.
I see no reason why any business person in their right mind would have another business tell them their stock was ‘lost’ yet then expect their client to repurchase the product at the NEW INCREASED PRICE.
I am in the process of writing a formal letter (and possibly even sending it through State) to the State of Westphalia about this behavior.
Andrea has not only shafted me but has behaved this way towards other people. RUMOR has it she is somehow related to someone high in the Westphalian Organization in Germany (Ministeroum fuer Landwirtschaft und Forsten)
as she had mentioned on the phone something about GOOD LUCK with complaining in Germany. See how far that goes! And then a snicker. That was especially annoying considering I had a lovely international GP mare to breed to Florestan again ON THE ADVICE of a MEMBER of the GOV Inspection team NO LESS!!! I cannot wait until he hears what happened to my taking his advice and trying to rebreed this fantastic GERMAN FN RANKED 10th in the GP SPECIAL before her import, MARE to Florestan.
Still I am sure one of the lovely Dutch Stallions I will use in the future will do just as well! Just not one from Blue Hors either!
I wish these people in Europe would wake up and smell the coffee about the people they are giving EXCLUSIVES to! I just don’t need their semen that badly!! And I am guessing lots of other Americans get fed up with the rip offs too! Most just go quietly away unlike some of us who just get too annoyed to quit!
If you like me are upset about the situation and have a similar story I am writing a formal letter about what happened to me to be forwarded to the German State overseer responsible for Westphalian Stud getting their funding. If you would like to join me in my complaint with one of your own, please feel free to email me. Please do make sure you accounting is short and factual though. There is language translation to deal with.[/QUOTE]
See: different direction, different interpretation. So as long as you are not asked by someone and not selling and that person is not taking it seriously to a lawyer and as long as I am not asking for something and do not get it sold and take this to a lawyer (assuming I would be american) we will not know. The two ofd us can look into law papers, links, analyse them and post our opinions, but we will not come to a conclusion 
So we can go back and forth and whoever tries to find the better and more convincing word may be believed or not. So we might as well stop this going back and forth here…
In any case this does not help the OP.
The only thing one can draw conclusions of from this topic:
Maybe to think about buying your own container and storing the semen yourself.
Ask for recommendations for frozen semen dealers
Ask for recommendation for Vet Clinics
In case of issues, get into contact with SO (Example above about Don Schufro)
…
