What is killing recognized dressage shows?

[MsM]

Interesting discussion! I dont think the “big gaits” issue is the main driver in difficulties some shows are facing getting entries. I think it is more related to money and the squeeze the non-rich have felt in their discretionary spending.

I go way back in following dressage in the USA. I was hearing the same complaints about gaits back when Keen, Seldom Seen, and Bao were stars in dressage. The gait coefficient used to be 2! I would like to see it removed, since judges are taught to consider gaits first in most movements.

[pluvinel]

@pluvinel

If dressage is truly about “training” of the horse (rather than an evaluation of the natural talents of the horse), then why not judge the qualities inherent in training?

The Training Pyramid starts with Rhythm - Suppleness - Contact.
https://www.usdf.org/EduDocs/Competition/The_New_Pyramid_of_Training_Marilyn_Heath.pdf

Why not emphasize those qualities in the lower level tests? Why not have internal consistency between what is being used as the stated stepping stones for training…and the evaluation criteria for how that training is being judged?

I posted this upthread and got no discussion. I figure since people don’t click on links, I thought I would add the graphic.

If dressage is truly about training of the horse, why don’t the dressage tests test the application of the training pyramid? Why are “Quality of the Gaits” in each and every box in the lower level tests?

Nowhere in the directives do the tests ask a judge to address Rhythm, Suppleness, Contact…especially at the lower levels

[sparkygrace]

In the lower levels, the tests use the word “regularity” in the directives. As the chart shows, regularity and tempo are considered part of rhythm. Suppleness and contact are addressed in the collective marks and are definitely part of the comments for each movement.

[millerra]

from training level test 1:

PURPOSE
To confirm that the horse demonstrates correct basics, by showing suppleness both
laterally and longitudinally, moving freely forward in a clear rhythm with a steady
tempo, and readily accepting contact with the bit. Correct geometry and lines of travel
should be shown.

So, does that (or not) mean that this is part of the judging of every single movement?

[Knubbsy]

I thought it was great that we had a huge turnout at Region 1 GAIGs this year - I think ~550 horses and people came from other regions. There was a mix of breeds for the JY and AA divisions including in the ribbons, especially <4th level. The scores weren’t super high across the board but the judges were definitely using the full range of options (Janine giving me 7s for my lateral work on my cowpony made me incredibly happy). Yes, Region 1 is probably more well off than some other regions and has a stronger base, but it’s still a sign that’s not dying.

Aside and mostly unrelated, very few deviated from white breeches, so those aren’t dying either.

[lorilu]

Do you really think those qualities aren’t considered by judges? We see horses eliminated due to rhythm issues. Suppleness is considered in any movement with a bend or a transition. Contact? Well duh I won’t explain.
Etc etc
UNLESS of course you mean ONLY those factors should be considered in lower levels…. In which case the loosy -goosy —whose rider can disguise his hanging on the bit — warmblood will still have the advantage.

[Grey623]

@pluvinel

Why are “Quality of the Gaits” in each and every box in the lower level tests?

@lorilu

Do you really think those qualities aren’t considered by judges?

I have long wondered if some of the problem with competitive dressage is that the word Quality has two definitions:

1. the standard of something as measured against other things of a similar kind; the degree of excellence of something. “an improvement in product quality”

2. a distinctive attribute or characteristic possessed by someone or something. “she shows strong leadership qualities”

I know when I was showing as a youngster in the 70s and 80s, and even later in the 2000s, I believed Quality in the Directives meant Definition 2, as used by lorilu above. A good quality walk had 4 distinct beats, relaxed marching energy, rhythm, symmetry, tracking up. Potentially any horse could have a good quality walk and improve it with training. And it is important enough to be mentioned in every movement at the lower levels. The playing field was more level for all horses, and the fancy mover got rewarded in the Gaits mark in Collectives…

I believe modern dressage culture has shifted the emphasis to Definition 1, comparing horse against horse. This approach favors the fancy mover in every movement of the test and gives the average horse a big hill to climb.

Grey

[lorilu]

This is a super article I thought fits well into this discussion. https://www.horsenation.com/2023/10/09/training-in-the-right-way-theres-a-problem-in-competitive-dressage/?mibextid=Zxz2cZ

[lorilu]

@Grey623

Potentially any horse could have a good quality walk and improve it with training.

Sure some improvement is possible. But no matter how much training, my Lusitano is never going to have the long swinging back and cat like walk that scores an 8 or 9. I’ve seen a 10 walk. My guy no matter how supple has about a half hoof overstride.

I disagree with your premise that judges now judge horses against each other. That’s what rail classes do. Not dressage tests where the judges are trained to recognize the numeric quality of the movement (including all its components).

[Long_Time_Lurker]

@HoolieB

I wonder what would happen if we scribes politely responded to those comments along the lines of BatCoach’s mental dialogue? Would our pay get cut in half? HR called and we’d be escorted out by security? For sure it would be uncomfortable but dammit, those riders have paid for what they likely hope is a fair, unprejudiced opinion of their tests.

I believe that volunteers as well as competitors can fill out and send in a competition evaluation form. Really unprofessional comments like the ones described above can be reported. The feedback is taken seriously.

[Mondo]

I’m just going to leave this here. I agree with this wholeheartedly. I especially agree with the part about NOT blaming the judges. It is a long editorial (opinion piece) but well worth the read.

https://www.horsenation.com/2023/10/09/training-in-the-right-way-theres-a-problem-in-competitive-dressage/

[lorilu]

I guess great minds think alike. I shared that yesterday.

[enjoytheride]

@CanteringCarrot

I moved to the Midwest once (temporarily) and there was no mean girl scene because there was no dressage scene. The horse scene in general was…terrible. Plenty of people had horses though and were keeping them in conditions that made me cringe.

So perhaps narrow it down from, “the Midwest”

Ummm where were you in the “Midwest” if your entire impression of a large geographical area is that? Here in Indiana the recognized dressage shows frequently have a waitlist and you can board anywhere from heated indoors to a field and a roundbale.

[CanteringCarrot]

@enjoytheride

@CanteringCarrot

I moved to the Midwest once (temporarily) and there was no mean girl scene because there was no dressage scene. The horse scene in general was…terrible. Plenty of people had horses though and were keeping them in conditions that made me cringe.

So perhaps narrow it down from, “the Midwest”

Ummm where were you in the “Midwest” if your entire impression of a large geographical area is that? Here in Indiana the recognized dressage shows frequently have a waitlist and you can board anywhere from heated indoors to a field and a roundbale.

I didn’t make anything up. I’m not sure why you’re trying to invalidate my experience.

I did not say that was my impression of an entire geographical area, as in that’s my impression of the entire Midwest. I said to narrow it down. In Indiana maybe there are wait lists. In parts of Nebraska or Missouri, maybe there aren’t. Also depends on what you consider close. Some say within 4 hours, others say 6.

[CanteringCarrot]

FWIW I’m not the only one that struggled a bit there re dressage and good boarding facilities, so really, I’m not bullshitting you.

[Cowgirl]

But, frankly, this is the problem: if you score gaits in each movement, then it is harder for the average horse to excel, even if it is better trained and ridden. Dressage is supposed to be about training and anyone can see that it’s not a fair fight between a 6 mover and an 8 mover. If you just have the coefficient for gaits at the end, and focus the test on the training and harmony, you might level the playing field. Please no pile ons at me: I have two young horses who have 8+ gaits, and I still feel this way–I really admire the harmonious, correct rides even if the horse moves for a 6 and I sort of felt like I had no choice but to buy a better mover than my last horse–who was a solid 7.

[eponacelt]

@sparkygrace

The only drawback is the cost of showing to get those scores. I think every average wage-earning person here agrees costs can be prohibitive to showing.

I think its less the cost of showing specifically (although for some, it may be a bridge too far), and more the fact that to be good enough to go out and show on anything, even an average moving, off-breed horse takes time, effort, and lots of lessons or training. I got my Bronze Medal and 3 of 4 scores for my Silver on a Welsh Cob/TB. He was wonderful, and I bought him for $7K (and we’re only talking about 11 years ago, so not back in the dark ages). We did great, including winning some classes in a very competitive region over his career. But it was expensive. I spent a LOT of time at lessons which don’t come cheap. And just the cost of owning and maintaining an upper level horse is significant. To me, that’s why we’re seeing fewer people showing - not just the cost of the show, but the cost to get there overall.

[eightpondfarm]

@Salty

Yeah, I can tell you that I was thrilled to win a teeny tiny black & white TV at a jumper show once. Meanwhile my rodeo pals come home with saddles and lessons from top trainers as prizes.

I don’t have any idea what the solution would be.

i haven’t read any further along in this thread past here ^, don’t know if this idea was addressed…
But the Western show horse world has men competing. Where they go the money flows. Their wives and kids all get involved when they do too. Many more warm bodies to draft into volunteering, and more in attendance as appreciative audiences too. Dressage…well, seems to be mostly working women or retired working women. Are husbands volunteering much? I honestly don’t know.

[sami-joe]

Spent nearly the entire day at a recognized dressage show at the Southern California Equestrian Center in Somis.
I counted the men – aside from SCEC employees – on one and a half hands.

[cnm161]

@eightpondfarm

But the Western show horse world has men competing. Where they go the money flows.

Unfortunately true, but also:

40 team roping or steer wrestling or breakaway roping runs = 40 min, max. Judging expense: timer. Have to pay for cows, but you also have spectators. Results are immediately clear.

40 dressage tests = all day affair. Accredited judge required. Spectators limited to family and/or friends, or competitors waiting for their ride times. Results lag the exhibition by minutes or hours.

If you’re a sponsor, the bang-for-your-buck is not in dressage. It’s a shame that what I love about the sport - specific feedback on every movement, and tests that show both sides of the horse equally - are what make it less spectator and sponsor friendly.