What is the earliest one can confirm pregnancy in a dog?

[Kyzteke]

What it says.

Can it be done via ultrasound or is there a lab test that is better?

The bitch was covered (with a tie) on 3/1 & 3/3 (first date recommended by vet after progesterone test).

Thinking we should count from 3/2. 63 days?

I know dogs don’t have the wide range that mares do, but what is an acceptable range for a normal gestation?

I seem to recall that a trillion years ago (the last time I bred dogs), the vet told me that after 64 days and no signs of labor it was time to induce.

Is this still accurate advice?

[Houndhill]

Congratulations! Fingers crossed that the breeding takes, and you have an uneventful whelping with healthy mother and pups! Should be a nice time of year for puppies. What breed?

You can do the Relaxin blood test at 28 days, (supposed to be pretty accurate, but I do know one person who got a false result) but my repro vet likes to do ultrasound at 28 days or a bit later. Not absolutely accurate at counting number of puppies, but you can get a rough idea, and see heartbeats. You can often palpate at around this time too. Then you can X-ray after day 54 and get a pretty accurate count so you will know when she is done.

You can usually predict ovulation and therefore parturition if you know when the LH surge was, but you don’t always know exactly when that was if you have only done progesterones. So, start monitoring the bitches temperature several days in advance, take it several times a day. When it drops below 100, she should begin to whelp within 24 hours. It will return to her normal before she whelps.

I always give the bitch a little treat when the thermometer beeps, so she is happy to see me coming with the thermometer!

You may want to consider the Whepwise service which loans you an ultrasound wand and lets you send the data to them and monitor fetal heartrates that way, so you know whether or when you need to do a C-Section. I haven’t used it, but everyone who has that I know who have used them loves this service. It costs several hundred dollars but might be worth the peace of mind.

[Kyzteke]

Houndhill…thanks for chiming in. Hoping you would. The breed are miniature heelers; they look like regular ACDs, but range from only 11"/ 12# to 16"/28#. Colors are generally the same – either blue or red, but my male is a rare “chocolate lavender” with gold eyes.

A gal has a female from the same breeding program where I got my two from, so she asked if she could use my male. He was only too happy to comply:winkgrin:

Interesting about the temps…you can do the same thing with horses, but it has to be the same time each day and you only do it once per day. I’ve never used this method of predicting foaling because I find the milk testing to be easier, but I hear it does work.

With dogs, does it have to be the same time each day? Any particular spell of time required between temp checks?

Regarding the Whepwise: I actually have my own ultrasound, but wouldn’t know what to look for that would indicate the need for a C-section. A mal-presentation, I assume?

X-raying for an accurate puppy count would be a great idea. Before the litter was even conceived she had 4 people ready to put down deposits!

Can you determine gender via ultrasound as well?

[Marshfield]

You cannot determine gender via ultrasound. Puppies should arrive 63 days +/-1 from when progesterone hit 5.0 I had one bitch where my boss checked at day 21 just to see if she could, and we could see embryos at that point.

Biggest thing to check with ultrasound that might indicate the need for a c-section is fetal heart rate. If you see fetal heart rate dropping below 180, that is a marker for fetal distress and the need for a c-section.

[Houndhill]

That sounds great, are you planning to take a puppy from this breeding?

No, you can’t tell gender from the ultrasound, but can get the puppies’ heartbeats from the Doppler ultrasound by Day 28 so you know whether they are alive at that time.
I don’t know how often progesterones were done, but sometimes you don’t know exactly when they hit 5, so it can be difficult to know when exactly she ovulated. Although ultrasounds can sometimes detect pregnancy as early as 21 days, by 28 days you have a greater chance of detecting heartbeats so I would wait til then if I were paying for one ultrasound. Much depends on how good the equipment is and how experienced the operater as to just how early you might be able to detect it. I would find out what your friends’ repro vet suggests.

At parturition, a drop in the puppies’ heartrate can indicate fetal distress, and that is what Whelpwise can tell you or if you are good at reading it you might be able to do it with your machine. In addition, Whelpwise can determine uterine contractions (which are not always apparent- I’ve had wolfhounds whose only indication that they were having a contraction was that the tip of their tail twitched!), and they can also give you advice about whether and/or when to use oxytocin and/or calcium injections during the whelping. There is more info on their website:

http://www.whelpwise.com/

You can take the bitch’s temp as often as you want to, but if you only do it once or even twice a day, there is a chance you could miss the temp drop, so I tend to do it more often. Fortunately, because of the treat association, my bitches are happy to see me coming at them with the thermometer!

[Sonesta]

If you know what you are doing, you can palpate the bitch post breeding between 2-3 weeks and tell if she is pregnant. You will feel what seems like grapes. Learn this from a good vet that does a lot of repro work so that you don’t harm them while palpating.

As for temperature, I take it first thing in the morning, then at lunch, then at dinner and then again just before bed. I wait for the temp to drop below 99.

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=Houndhill;7462975]
That sounds great, are you planning to take a puppy from this breeding?[/QUOTE]

GAWD no!!! The last thing I need is another dog!

I just charged her money:D.

I also have a female and I will be breeding her to my guy on her next heat so I’m sort of using this other woman’s experience to learn from.

However I don’t think she is quite as detail oriented in these matters as I tend to be (the woman, not my bitch). I told her to get the progesterone test done, and she did, but did not really pay attention to the actual number. The vet just told her “she will be good to breed on Saturday.” And she was. Then we tried again on Monday and she was receptive, so that was it.

But in my case, the last heat my female seemed receptive, and did alot of “flirting” with the male, but whenever he went to actually mount her she would lie down & flip over on her back.

At one point I tried to hold her up and she went SERIOUSLY Cujo on me (and him!). So I just let them be…he never was able to cover her.

She is due in again around May. She’ll be 2 yrs old August 1st, so she is plenty old enough. So not sure what the issue is. But my goal is to just track her cycle, then do ONE breeding.

I assume I will need to get some hormonal tests done on her to see what’s going on? Any ideas? Once I determine what the issue is, the plan is to just have the vet collect & inseminate in the office. Per a Corgi breeder friend of mine she did the same thing: waited till the progesterone level was 5, then they bred once (no tie).

Bitch was a maiden (or whatever you call it in dogs), but she still had 6 pups (just born this past Friday…all healthy, no issues).

Too bad I don’t have a tiny little doggy AV…I AI my own mares, so I’m assuming I could do my own dog as well. Yes? No? I mean, how hard could it be? Dogs are so small compared to mares.

BTW, can you induce ovulation in dogs like you can in mares?

Regarding predicting labor; my unit doesn’t have Doppler capabilities and I don’t think I’m a practiced enough technician to accurately access something like fetal distress. This is probably best left up to experts.

Geeze, I can recall when dogs just snuck out the back door and came home pregnant…everything has gotten so technical since then…

[Houndhill]

Yes you can do your own AV in dogs, and some breeders do, armed only with a Baggie and a syringe…but canine semen is more delicate than equine semen, extenders etc can be helpful, the timing is extremely important. I would have a repro vet do transcervical implantation if possible. Plus look at the sperm and determine numbers, morphology, etc.

Wow, she will be two in August, and you are breeding her in May? What about hip, elbow, clearances per OFA, of course you can Pennhip earlier, other health testing, conformation/performance evaluation? In my breed, we do not generally breed bitches before three years because of this.

Induced ovulation is tricky in the bitch compared to other species, as bitches have no luteolytic agent, in other words, a pregnant and non pregnant bitch both have a high progesterone level, unlike many other species. The corpus luteum just persists, secreting progesterone, whether she is pregnant or not. So, it is more difficult to induce ovulation in canids as compared to many other species.

[Houndhill]

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7463146]

Geeze, I can recall when dogs just snuck out the back door and came home pregnant…everything has gotten so technical since then…;)[/QUOTE]

Yes this is a guaranteed way to get 10 puppies whelped under the porch…in February!

[Horsegal984]

I’m sorry. But “Minature Heelers” are a fad and I think you’re doing the world a disservice by breeding. They are not recognized by any reputable registry and you are basically breeding nothing more than designer dogs and crap that will wind up in shelters. You might as well breed MaltiShihPoos. Actually I think it’s worse. You’re breeding a high drive dog that is now totally useless for its intended purpose. Send a 12lb dog out to move cattle. The cows will fall over laughing.

I have NO respect for anyone breeding Minature Heelers any more than I do for the Mini Aussies. For christs sake can we not learn from the rampant health problems the Mini Aussies have that this is a bad idea?

**and I’m well aware that everything I just said will make you mad. Just want to clarify I said it as nicely as I possibly could. And I don’t apologize for a second.

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=Horsegal984;7463500]
I’m sorry. But “Minature Heelers” are a fad and I think you’re doing the world a disservice by breeding. They are not recognized by any reputable registry and you are basically breeding nothing more than designer dogs and crap that will wind up in shelters. You might as well breed MaltiShihPoos. Actually I think it’s worse. You’re breeding a high drive dog that is now totally useless for its intended purpose. Send a 12lb dog out to move cattle. The cows will fall over laughing.

I have NO respect for anyone breeding Minature Heelers any more than I do for the Mini Aussies. For christs sake can we not learn from the rampant health problems the Mini Aussies have that this is a bad idea?

**and I’m well aware that everything I just said will make you mad. Just want to clarify I said it as nicely as I possibly could. And I don’t apologize for a second.[/QUOTE]

It doesn’t make me mad at all. We all have opinions. You are entitled to yours and you have voiced it. After all, this is COTH. Someone will ask what time it is and you can count on at least one poster who will argue that Time is irrelevant and try to shame the OP into slinking away because they even asked the question. 'Tis the way of COTH.

Luckily, I don’t give a flying #!$* about your opinion or if you “respect” me. To me, you are just one more idiot with a keyboard and access to the internet (btw, I just want to clarify I said this in the nicest way possible;) ).

I have yet to find a mini heeler in a shelter. As I said, the pups are all spoken for and they aren’t even conceived yet. And lets take a poll and find out how many people who own ACDs actually use them routinely to work stock. Very few. Last time I checked you didn’t need cows before you could own a heeler.

Nope, they “use” their dogs for stuff like agility, obedience and just plain pets…and the minis are just as good at this, plus abit more portable.

And here’s some history on the original ACD that you obviously aren’t aware of: the breeder I work with got her first stock from original working dogs imported from Australia back in the '60’s. Very few of them weighed over 30 lbs. Any heavier and they simply didn’t have the endurance to follow the herds all day in the brutal heat. The fact is, this burly, 60+lb block of a dog we see now is the “fad”, not the other way around.

11"/12lbs is very, very small…most mini’s run taller/heavier. I personally prefer about 14"/15-20#. My male is 16" tall and weighs 27#. The bitch is 14" tall and weighs about 20 lbs, but she is abit fluffy.

Check out this pic. Doesn’t say the height of this dog, but assuming the woman is average height, and the back of the dog doesn’t quite reach the bottom of her knee, a solid “guess-timate” would make the dog’s height between 14-16".
http://turrella.com/photo.asp?PicID=129

This pic is even older. Based on the size of the dog compared to the horse, it would seem the dog would stand about 14" tall and weigh 18-25 lbs. max.
http://www.australian-cattledogs.com/img/einsatzbereiche/reitbegleithund-1.jpg

As for “reputable registries”…please, don’t make me laugh. Registries are basically money-making organizations, pure & simple. I always said if you want to get rich without actually working, start a religion or a registry.

AKC is probably the worst thing ever to happen to dogs. There is no standard of quality. You can guarantee that, in the case of any working dog that is accepted into the AKC, the overall soundness & quality of the breed will drop like a stone. Just look at what happened to Border Collies, JRTs and (yes) ACDs. In fact, if you check out ranchers who actually breed working dogs very few of them are registered…and certainly not with the AKC.

There ARE several registries that recognize miniature heelers and my dogs are registered with them, but I do that simply because people like papers…why, I don’t know, but they do.

As for issues with hips, etc. those issues don’t exist in the breed. The advantage of using working stock, I guess.

Lastly…as for cows falling over laughing…well, so far I haven’t seen that. My mini’s seem to move stock just fine (and yes, they actually HAVE worked cattle & horses).

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=Houndhill;7463251]
Yes you can do your own AV in dogs, and some breeders do, armed only with a Baggie and a syringe…but canine semen is more delicate than equine semen, extenders etc can be helpful, the timing is extremely important. I would have a repro vet do transcervical implantation if possible. Plus look at the sperm and determine numbers, morphology, etc.

Wow, she will be two in August, and you are breeding her in May? What about hip, elbow, clearances per OFA, of course you can Pennhip earlier, other health testing, conformation/performance evaluation? In my breed, we do not generally breed bitches before three years because of this.

Induced ovulation is tricky in the bitch compared to other species, as bitches have no luteolytic agent, in other words, a pregnant and non pregnant bitch both have a high progesterone level, unlike many other species. The corpus luteum just persists, secreting progesterone, whether she is pregnant or not. So, it is more difficult to induce ovulation in canids as compared to many other species.[/QUOTE]

How is a “transcervical” implantation different than just plain insemination? With horses you just slide the pipette through the cervix and that’s it (unless you are doing deep horn AI, then you “aim” the pipette at the ovulating horn. Since a dog’s uterus is not constructed this way , I assume this is not an option with dogs).

As for your other concerns: You work with a giant breed where OFA and such is an issue. As I mentioned, these guys don’t have these issues. The breeder I got my stock from can trace her program back some 6-7 generations, so I assume if there had been issues, she’d know it.

My guys (and their parents) have no conformational defects, bites are good, limbs/joints good, eyes/ears are all in good working order.

These dogs are not shown in ‘breed’ competition, nor do I believe that is any sort of judge of the soundness or quality of an animal. My experience with horses has shown me that the death of overall quality in an animal is directly linked with breeding simply for looks. It’s not coincidental that very few “halter” champions in horses (of ANY breed) are also top performance animals.

As for “performance”, again, these guys started showing their desire to herd when they were 8 mos old., so they are still very capable of doing what the breed was intended for.

They are intelligent, hardy (no illnesses, allergies, etc) and have shown no aberrant behavior such as extreme nervousness, aggression or shyness. My male is not fond of thunderstorms, but he doesn’t totally freak out over them either.

What other testing would you suggest?

[S1969]

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7463939]
As for issues with hips, etc. those issues don’t exist in the breed. The advantage of using working stock, I guess.[/QUOTE]

This breed has NO congenital health concerns? That is unlikely. It might be the only breed in the world that doesn’t.

One reason issues might not exist is because few breeders actually conduct any health screening and/or the breed is so small/new that there is insufficient data to show (yet) what the congenial health issues might be.

Whether you choose to breed or not is one thing; and you are right - that is your choice. But don’t be so naïve to think that as a breeder you shouldn’t conduct some health screenings to be sure you are not passing on congenital defects because they don’t exist.

I’d start by looking at the screening tests for standard ACDs (which is not a short list, by the way):

http://www.caninehealthinfo.org/brdreqs.html?breed=ACD

[Houndhill]

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7463948]
How is a “transcervical” implantation different than just plain insemination?[/Quote]

With transcervical insemination, a rigid endoscope is used to visualize the cervix on a TV screen, and the catheter is passed through that. It is usually done at a repro vet or veterinary teaching hospital as an alternative to surgical insemination, most often with frozen semen, but sometimes with chilled or fresh. Success rates are thought to be similar as with surgical. I’ve done all three ways, conventional AI, transcervical, and surgical, and so far have had the most luck with surgical. Well, actually, the most luck with “live cover”, almost forgot about that one although it is not always possible because of distance or whatever.

@Kyzteke;7463948

As for your other concerns: You work with a giant breed where OFA and such is an issue. As I mentioned, these guys don’t have these issues. The breeder I got my stock from can trace her program back some 6-7 generations, so I assume if there had been issues, she’d know it.

Well actually hip dysplasia is not a huge problem with Irish Wolfhounds, which rank 147th among the breeds according to the OFA website, with an incidence of 4.7%, probably because they are sighthounds and have much muscle mass in their hips, like greyhounds, which have an even lower incidence. We still check though, I figure, how do you know unless you check? I sure dont want to be blamed if it later becomes a problem, and want to know that my stock is clear of these things. We also do elbows, eyes, and hearts (echos). ACDs have an incidence of 15.4% dysplasia according to OFA. Perhaps, as you suggest, the mini ACDs are free of this.

@Kyzteke;7463948

What other testing would you suggest?

I have no idea what testing might be appropriate for mini ACDs specifically, but for ACDs, but CHIC certification (the Canine Health Information organization) requires OFA or Pennhipp hips (OFA done after age two), OFA elbow rads, BAER testing for congenital deafness, CERF or OFA eye certification, PRA DNA test. Patellar luxation testing is considered optional.

[Horsegal984]

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7463939]
Luckily, I don’t give a flying #!$* about your opinion or if you “respect” me. To me, you are just one more idiot with a keyboard and access to the internet (btw, I just want to clarify I said this in the nicest way possible;) ).[/QUOTE]

Good thing I have a keyboard and the internet, since it makes it a lot easier to coordinate foster home and find ACDs in shelters that need to be pulled.

I have yet to find a mini heeler in a shelter.

Let me introduce you to my newest foster dog. Hes the one in the back… http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q210/horsegal984/Tag/C9138EF4-AA30-4120-9D49-9E624E01DB6F_zps7ffkxmpy.jpg

And here’s some history on the original ACD that you obviously aren’t aware of: the breeder I work with got her first stock from original working dogs imported from Australia back in the '60’s. Very few of them weighed over 30 lbs. Any heavier and they simply didn’t have the endurance to follow the herds all day in the brutal heat. The fact is, this burly, 60+lb block of a dog we see now is the “fad”, not the other way around.

Maybe you should brush up on the history of the heeler yourself. Actually I’d recommend that you read the spinoff Cattle Dog thread going on, there are some very interesting variations of the breed still to this day in Australia. 60+lbs is an oversized or fat heeler, just as much of a fault as the things you’re breeding.

Check out this pic. Doesn’t say the height of this dog, but assuming the woman is average height, and the back of the dog doesn’t quite reach the bottom of her knee, a solid “guess-timate” would make the dog’s height between 14-16".
http://turrella.com/photo.asp?PicID=129

Oh, and just for reference, this is a current photo of an ACD winning in the breed ring. Not really much of a size difference than in the photo you posted.
http://hollowlogacd.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/AbbyWin1.jpg
Look another! And this is a male!!
http://hollowlo.startlogic.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/Lump/LumpyClemson.jpg

You’re gestimations of height have the dogs only a couple inches below the breed standard, so I’m not really sure what point it is you think you’re trying to make:confused:

As for “reputable registries”…please, don’t make me laugh. Registries are basically money-making organizations, pure & simple. I always said if you want to get rich without actually working, start a religion or a registry.

AKC is probably the worst thing ever to happen to dogs. There is no standard of quality. You can guarantee that, in the case of any working dog that is accepted into the AKC, the overall soundness & quality of the breed will drop like a stone. Just look at what happened to Border Collies, JRTs and (yes) ACDs. In fact, if you check out ranchers who actually breed working dogs very few of them are registered…and certainly not with the AKC.

There ARE several registries that recognize miniature heelers and my dogs are registered with them, but I do that simply because people like papers…why, I don’t know, but they do.

Notice I didn’t say AKC. Neither the AKC, CKC, UKC, OR the ANKC recognize “mini” Cattle Dogs. So please inform us. What registry is it that you register your dogs with? What registries and papers do is tell the owners that the dog they’re getting the purebred dog they’re asking for. FFS, its the same as with horses, some care about registry and papers and some don’t.

As for issues with hips, etc. those issues don’t exist in the breed. The advantage of using working stock, I guess.

Seriously, if you think that there aren’t health issues in working stock I’ve got some oceanfront property in Arizona I’ll sell ya really cheap. Did you know that ACDs actually have some of the worst hips?? Thankfully their solid hind end muscling helps prevent them from being totally crippled. Let me guess, health testing is just the vets own “money-making” scheme? Since the CHIC information has already been posted for actual Cattle Dogs I’d also recommend looking into the issues with the Mini Aussies, since their list of health issues is actually LONGER than the standard Aussies.

PLEASE wake up and stop being part of the problem. If you’re really insistent on breeding Mini’s then at least have the common freaking sense to health test and start herding testing them, titling them in agility, ANYTHING to prove they have the worthiness to breed.

The part that makes me the saddest of all this is you apparently work in a veterinary setting. :no::no::no:

[Houndhill]

I also thought it was interesting that Australian Shepherds have only a 5.8% incidence of hip dysplasia, whereas the mini-Aussies actually have a higher incidence, 8.1%, but both are lower than ACDs which are 15.4%. Catahoulas are 21.6% dysplastic! But only 584 tested so far. And Kelpies are 8.7%.

Here is the OFA hip dysplasia database by breed:

http://www.offa.org/stats_hip.html

[Marshfield]

Given that OFA clearances are important for full sized Australian Cattle Dog, it seems highly likely that these are things which should be checked in miniatures prior to breeding.

[alto]

[QUOTE=Horsegal984;7464252]

The part that makes me the saddest of all this is you apparently work in a veterinary setting. :no::no::no:[/QUOTE]

And I thought her to be a reputable breeder of horses … now I’m just sad

[Houndhill]

You know, I think a lot of it is a matter of education and awareness on the part of the breeders. I think many truly do believe that their breed does not get health problem x, because that is what their mentors have told them. My mentors 45 years ago did not think IWs got hip dysplasia, they did not X-ray hips. It was only because I had a good friend who was a greyhound breeder who did hips, that I realized “How do you know if you don’t test” and began doing so. Now most reputable breeders do, there is now a “culture of support” that sets the norm. As recently as 15 years ago, I had never heard of elbow dysplasia, let alone know IWs could have it, until I heard of a case where it cropped up in a very prominent breeder’s dog. She was terrific, very open about it, and now most everyone also tests for that, which turns out to be more of a problem than hip dysplasia in this breed.

Same with heart issues, many thought I was nuts for testing back in the day, now most everyone does. And I had never heard of liver shunt in IWs 20 years ago, nor had many, now most of us do bile acid testing of puppies before they leave.

The point is, I think many breeders are simply convinced that a problem does not exist in their breed, or their line, until they hear of cases, or begin testing for it, and “back in the day”, lots of breeders did not do so.

Some breeders have also been convinced that as long as a breed is not AKC recognized, it cannot have hip dysplasia or other health issues. A look at the OFA stats demonstrates that such is absolutely not true. Some of the highest incidents of hip dysplasia are in non-AKC recognized breeds, many of which are primarily bred for work or performance.

[D_BaldStockings]

Here are some useful links for a person with a pregnant bitch

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/whelpingmain.htm

http://www.wylanbriar.com/breeding-advice/after-whelping-care-problems-and-faqs/

Most breeders, even of working dogs, like to see OFA for hips and elbows, and in herding breeds various eye tests and deafness tests - one side deafness is genetic in many cases; the dogs can work fine but will pass on the defect to their progeny.

What you don’t know may hurt your breeding plans.