What next for California Chrome?

[CVPeg]

[QUOTE=Shammy Davis;8078766]
I think Art is right. Looked to me like Meydan was heavy going and CC was held wide until the finish. CC is going to be a very tired horse.

Reminds of what the slew connections did to billy turner with swaps stakes. Deja Vu.[/QUOTE]

Exactly what I was thinking. The horse needs a break. As did Slew. Later on Taylors said Bill was all for it. No, he was not.

@Calamber;8078774

It is not the same as with Seattle Slew, Billy Turner was having serious alcohol problems which he acknowledged himself. Martin should be ashamed of himself, these US horses take about 3 months to recover from such an arduous trip and race.

And no, it was not about that. As Shammy said, it was about the big carrot placed in front of the Taylors’ noses. For which they paid when the horse became exceedingly ill.

Saudi, Dubai or Japan eventually - the fact that this was done against the trainer knowing what is best for the horse is very sad indeed.

[Plumcreek]

[QUOTE=Drvmb1ggl3;8078792]
I don’t understand the long distance travel bit. He has to fly back from Dubai to somewhere. It appears he will fly to England father than southern California. They are both long distances, but the trip to California is quite a bit longer. So would a flight to England not be easier on him? .[/QUOTE]

I didn’t mean that quite so literally. Just the tendency of owners to want to push for the moon with a really good horse, which for show horses means many cross country trailer rides, rather than hours on a plane.

Just wondering, what happens in these big races, where the host track/country pays the expenses, if the decision is that the horse is not right to run?

[RainyDayRide]

A bit more on California Chrome’s trip to England… looks like they’re thinking about running him in a prep race in May.

http://www.thenational.ae/sport/horse-racing/from-dubai-world-cup-to-royal-ascot-california-chrome-set-to-be-shipped-to-newmarket

[Shammy_Davis]

Someone earlier suggested that the connections probably wouldn’t have any luck standing CC in the states. I have to agree. With NOT FOR LOVE on the dam side and (no reflection on CA breeding intended) a relatively unproven LUCKY PULPIT on top, it makes for some interesting breeding considerations and prospects early on. Takes me back to the unthinkable stud potential of Saggy, sire of CARRY BACK. Now there was “dead” pedigree if ever there was one.

Just my imagination running away with me, but CC owners (Martin in particular) might be using the UK races as a marketing device. I haven’t kept up with NA stallion introductions to the international market in sometime, but with the exception of Japan, breeders in Australasia and Europe might be interested in him. I don’t think the UK, Europe, or Australasia has any PULPIT blood to speak of. None have any MR PROSPECTOR either, certainly not through the very good regional sire NOT FOR LOVE.

As an aside, can you imagine the nightmares Perry Martin is having now as he considers a continued partnership with “big mouth” Steve Coburn. Perry has probably been seeing a “shrink” by now and sees his only escape as selling CC to the highest stallion farm bidder.:lol: I’ll bet Perry has been so quiet because he is wearing ear plugs since Chrome stood and nursed. He couldn’t be too good a judge of character considering who he invited into his partnership.:yes:

Sadly, Art Sherman is being thrown under the bus, but class acts like him always get up and dust themselves off. Art will someday be inducted into the HOF while Perry Martin and Steve Coburn will be lost in the many listed names who were “splash in the pan” owners and no one can remember anything about them but the weird things. Don’t know if any remember that Jim Squires was called a breeding genius when longshot MONARCHOS won the KD in 2001. Jim wrote a couple of entertaining books on racing, but heard anything about his breeding exploits lately. I don’t think we’ll see Perry Martin doing anything entertaining in the near or distant future. As for Steve Coburn, hate to say it, but I only know of three in the industry that can get away with wearing wide brimmed western hats: D. Wayne Lukas, Larry Jones, and Carl Nafzger. I recall that Carl started off steer wrestling or bull riding. Now who in their right minds is going to criticize him for his choice in hats.:winkgrin: The wide brim would work for Steve Coburn if it were three sizes larger and fit snugly down to his shoulders.

[SnicklefritzG]

[QUOTE=Shammy Davis;8079316]
Someone earlier suggested that the connections probably wouldn’t have any luck standing CC in the states. I have to agree. With NOT FOR LOVE on the dam side and (no reflection on CA breeding intended) a relatively unproven LUCKY PULPIT on top, it makes for some interesting breeding considerations and prospects early on. Takes me back to the unthinkable stud potential of Saggy, sire of CARRY BACK. Now there was “dead” pedigree if ever there was one.

Just my imagination running away with me, but CC owners (Martin in particular) might be using the UK races as a marketing device. I haven’t kept up with NA stallion introductions to the international market in sometime, but with the exception of Japan, breeders in Australasia and Europe might be interested in him. I don’t think the UK, Europe, or Australasia has any PULPIT blood to speak of. None have any MR PROSPECTOR either, certainly not through the very good regional sire NOT FOR LOVE.

As an aside, can you imagine the nightmares Perry Martin is having now as he considers a continued partnership with “big mouth” Steve Coburn. Perry has probably been seeing a “shrink” by now and sees his only escape as selling CC to the highest stallion farm bidder.:lol: I’ll bet Perry has been so quiet because he is wearing ear plugs since Chrome stood and nursed. He couldn’t be too good a judge of character considering who he invited into his partnership.:yes:

Sadly, Art Sherman is being thrown under the bus, but class acts like him always get up and dust themselves off. Art will someday be inducted into the HOF while Perry Martin and Steve Coburn will be lost in the many listed names who were “splash in the pan” owners and no one can remember anything about them but the weird things. Hate to say it, but I only know of three in the industry that can get away with wearing wide brimmed western hats: D. Wayne Lukas, Larry Jones, and Carl Nafzger. I recall that Carl started off steer wrestling or bull riding. Now who in their right minds is going to criticize him for his choice in hats.:winkgrin: The wide brim would work for Steve Coburn if it were three sizes larger and fit snugly down to his shoulders.[/QUOTE]

I certainly hope so.

[Drvmb1ggl3]

[QUOTE=Shammy Davis;8079316]

Just my imagination running away with me, but CC owners (Martin in particular) might be using the UK races as a marketing device.[/QUOTE]

I think that is pretty much a given.
They stated almost 9 months ago that almost all the interest they were getting in CC from stud farms was from overseas, primarily Japan. They even considered running in the Japan Cup Dirt (now called the Champions Cup) last Nov, but pulled out when they were told they couldn’t run with nasal strips.
Late last year they stated they would target some turf G1s this year, with Arlington Milliion mentioned, to help make him more attractive to overseas studs/breeders.
So the trip to the Royal meeting at Ascot is not really that much of a surprise. It will be jumping in at the deep end though.

It could pay off handsomely if he does well. Both the Queen Anne and Prince of Wales are “Stallion Making” races… sure looks good on a resume.

[Shammy_Davis]

[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;8079329]
I certainly hope so.[/QUOTE]

What an amazing life’s ride for Art. Can you imagine? If ever there was deserving horseman, it’s him.

[SportArab]

I dunno. I can certainly see how owner(s) who are having their one big shot might want to ride it through to the end. Certainly it gives racing a plus in that we’ve got a horse that is fairly popular and is continuing to run rather than being retired as a 3-year-old to the breeding shed. I’ll enjoy following his career through the summer.

Interestingly, Affirmed’s owner, Lou Wolfson, had aspirations to run his horse on the turf with the eventual goal of competing in Europe. Affirmed, however, liked running on dirt only.

[danceronice]

If you’ve got a good horse, run him. If you want to really make a sport of it, run him overseas. They ship Euro turf horses to the US all the time, South Americans come up North, Asian horses ship to the Middle East and Europe–even Black Caviar shipped to the UK, TWICE. Only American fans seem to get the vapors over the idea of sending a horse somewhere tough because it’s far. (Good grief, look at some people having a meltdown that they’re apparently really going to send Shared Belief to West Virginia. Way past time to get him out of California.)

And Chrome needs a rest? Set aside he’s shown he does not run well off long breaks, it wouldn’t exactly be restful to spend twenty hours on a plane back to CA, then turn around and throw him on a plane to England. Let him get used to where he’ll run next.

[Lord_Helpus]

Most every US horse who goes to Dubai does not race again until mid summer. The length of the trip, change in time zones, etc (just think how jet lagged people get from crossing so many time zones) takes a lot out of a horse.

For them to run him again 2x in the next 3 months is asking for a poor performance.

Plus he will not be racing on a landing strip made of grass. Grass in England is deeper and more tiring. Given the exhaustion and the footing factors, CC will have a hard time looking good. And THEN he will be running against the cream of English and Irish racing, not just the small % of grass horses we have in the US.

I cannot see how this will end well for anyone. If it were just for the BAP, I would not mind. But Art and CC deserve better.

[Texarkana]

I agree. This is a poorly thought out plan by someone who doesn’t fully comprehend international racing and horses. No one knows the horse better than Art Sherman, and he has expressed a lot of concern that England is not in Chrome’s best interest for a myriad of reasons. That speaks volumes to me, no matter how “logical” it may seem on paper to head straight there.

[SportArab]

Horses in the States used to run a whole lot more than they do now. I suspect the current trend has more to do with a) Lasix requiring a long recovery time and b) trainers wanting to keep their averages up by being very careful about where their horses run.

I really do not see any harm coming to the horse from this. As for Art Sherman, he will still be trainer of record. Let’s not forget that CC’s whole Triple Crown run was planned by Perry Martin, not Sherman.

[Calamber]

[QUOTE=Shammy Davis;8078996]
Picky. Picky. Turner had a drinking problem when he was riding chasers. The slew crew hired him with the problem. Check your facts. The choice to send slew to CA was about money. Turner and Cruget told Tayhill the horse was worn out after the TC. My point was a good comparison absent the trainer’s addiction.[/QUOTE]

You need to check yours, he admitted to a drinking problem when he cross purposed with the owners after the TC, again. The horse had 14 wins from 17 starts, his record stands for itself and I am glad he was not just retired to the breeding shed right away. http://www.seattleslew.com/race_career.aspx He was tired when he was going into the Swaps, finished fourth, later on was operated on for a neck problem, and died in his sleep at age 28, hardly a worn out sick horse. He was well loved by the owners and doted on (not shipped around the world to breed). Turner on the other hand is now on his 3rd wife, sober only from 1990. Make sure you read the part where Steve Haskin
says that Jim Hill tried to help Billy Turner get over his problem for a year and where he himself is quoted as saying he nearly drank himself to death. I am not trying to slam the guy but do get the story straight, it is not at all like the California Chrome situation.

http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/horse-racing-steve-haskin/archive/2010/09/21/the-life-and-death-of-seattle-slew.aspx

[Angelico]

[QUOTE=Calamber;8082723]
You need to check yours, he admitted to a drinking problem when he cross purposed with the owners after the TC, again. The horse had 14 wins from 17 starts, his record stands for itself and I am glad he was not just retired to the breeding shed right away. http://www.seattleslew.com/race_career.aspx He was tired when he was going into the Swaps, finished fourth, later on was operated on for a neck problem, and died in his sleep at age 28, hardly a worn out sick horse. He was well loved by the owners and doted on (not shipped around the world to breed). Turner on the other hand is now on his 3rd wife, sober only from 1990. Make sure you read the part where Steve Haskin
says that Jim Hill tried to help Billy Turner get over his problem for a year and where he himself is quoted as saying he nearly drank himself to death. I am not trying to slam the guy but do get the story straight, it is not at all like the California Chrome situation.

http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/horse-racing-steve-haskin/archive/2010/09/21/the-life-and-death-of-seattle-slew.aspx[/QUOTE]

The major similarity between CC’s connections and SS’s connections is the apparent naivety, I think that is what Shammy was referring to when he compared them.

Both sets of connections seem to “love” the horse and mean well, but both seem to let their “dreams” guide them when they should be letting the horsemen that know the horse and the business guide them.

A little OT, but SS died at the age of 28, after having fought that neck problem for a couple of years by that point and having endured at least two surgeries for it (if I remember correctly). Throughout the SS’s lifetime, the owners had falling outs with nearly everyone they dealt with when it came to the horse. Do you really believe it was everyone else that was the problem? I imagine the CC connections will establish a similar collection of burned bridges and severed ties in the future.

[Calamber]

She was not talking about naivete, Shammy was talking about Slew’s owners being greedy, same as CC’s, and the trainer being the benighted Billy Turner, just like Art Sherman. That is where I take exception.

In any case, Slew had his first surgery at 16 for arthritic changes and again two years later, he lived another 10 years. This had nothing to do with his racing career and more to do with his genetics or conformational issues. As far as the owners being in conflict with everyone during his life, he stood at the same farm (Three Chimneys) for his whole stud career and then went into retirement at Hill N’Dale. I am sure there would be conflicts as there are around any horses’ care nevermind such a one as he. I don’t know why this should be such a surprise. None of those involved speaks badly of the other, why should you?

[Shammy_Davis]

Don’t put words in my mouth. The taylors and hills were greedy but i never said that about CC connections. Just similar results. There is plenty of support for Turner’s side of the story. After swaps stakes slew was so physically depleted that he was laid up for a year. Sent to Hialeah in 1978 he was scheduled for 3 starts which we know never happened because slew became gravely ill.

Billy ’ s personal demons aside he is a top notch horseman. Cruget and others involved with slew verify his take on the swaps. The Hills and Taylor’s didn’t get along with each other either.

It is interesting that neither Turner or Cruget have been nominated to the HOF.

Haskins has never been known for his investigative reporting. Pissing owners off might preclude his getting invitation to big money events that he can’t normally afford.

[Beaver_Breeze]

[QUOTE=Calamber;8082872]
She was not talking about naivete, Shammy was talking about Slew’s owners being greedy, same as CC’s, and the trainer being the benighted Billy Turner, just like Art Sherman. That is where I take exception.

In any case, Slew had his first surgery at 16 for arthritic changes and again two years later, he lived another 10 years. This had nothing to do with his racing career and more to do with his genetics or conformational issues. As far as the owners being in conflict with everyone during his life, he stood at the same farm (Three Chimneys) for his whole stud career and then went into retirement at Hill N’Dale. I am sure there would be conflicts as there are around any horses’ care nevermind such a one as he. I don’t know why this should be such a surprise. None of those involved speaks badly of the other, why should you?[/QUOTE]

He wasn’t going there for retirement. If retirement was the goal, he would have stayed at Three Chimneys.

[LaurieB]

[QUOTE=Beaver Breeze;8084990]
He wasn’t going there for retirement. If retirement was the goal, he would have stayed at Three Chimneys.[/QUOTE]

This. :yes:

[MidnightWriter]

Will the right-handed course at Ascot be a problem for him?

[Calamber]

[QUOTE=Beaver Breeze;8084990]
He wasn’t going there for retirement. If retirement was the goal, he would have stayed at Three Chimneys.[/QUOTE]

What do you think was the goal, to get him back to breeding? He had a second compression surgery and went back to Three Chimneys but was not getting better there. The horse was finished with breeding and at Three Chimneys he could not be far enough away from the mares. Hence calling Hill N’Dale a retirement farm where he could hopefully recover and his groom went with him.

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/8850/seattle-slew-moves-to-hill-n-dale

http://www.tbheritage.com/TurfHallmarks/Graves/cem/GraveMattersHillnDale.html