What next for California Chrome?

[Calamber]

[QUOTE=Shammy Davis;8083069]
Don’t put words in my mouth. The taylors and hills were greedy but i never said that about CC connections. Just similar results. There is plenty of support for Turner’s side of the story. After swaps stakes slew was so physically depleted that he was laid up for a year. Sent to Hialeah in 1978 he was scheduled for 3 starts which we know never happened because slew became gravely ill.

Billy ’ s personal demons aside he is a top notch horseman. Cruget and others involved with slew verify his take on the swaps. The Hills and Taylor’s didn’t get along with each other either.

It is interesting that neither Turner or Cruget have been nominated to the HOF.

Haskins has never been known for his investigative reporting. Pissing owners off might preclude his getting invitation to big money events that he can’t normally afford.[/QUOTE]

I don’t need to put words in your mouth, you are making insinuations about the similarity of the situations and already said that the Taylors were greedy. Turner never had any other side of the story except that he did not want to race him again in the Swaps thus he began drinking again. He could not take the pressure. After that he couldn’t hold himself together and said as much. Turner may have been a fine horseman once but he was a weak person emotionally, sadly I know of a few like that and none of them do I consider in the long run fine horsemen.

I know you will also denigrate this writer from AP too but this is their side of it.

http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2002/05/08/spt_seattle_slew_death.html

[Shammy_Davis]

[QUOTE=Calamber;8085392]
I don’t need to put words in your mouth, you are making insinuations about the similarity of the situations and already said that the Taylors were greedy. Turner never had any other side of the story except that he did not want to race him again in the Swaps thus he began drinking again. He could not take the pressure. After that he couldn’t hold himself together and said as much. Turner may have been a fine horseman once but he was a weak person emotionally, sadly I know of a few like that and none of them do I consider in the long run fine horsemen.

I know you will also denigrate this writer from AP too but this is their side of it.

http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2002/05/08/spt_seattle_slew_death.html[/QUOTE]
Sorry to have ruffled your feathers but I continue to believe you are out of touch with the facts. HRTV did a 2 part series on this where both sides speak to issues. For every link you produce I can provide an opposing one. Forgive me though if I drop the conversation because my farm needs more attention now than this.

[JJ_sLuckyTrain]

Perry Martin gives a response to the critics of the plan for CC:
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/91023/martin-defends-sending-chrome-to-ascot

The sad thing to me is that a horse as talented as CC is dismissed by US breeders. Folks here would rather send 100+ mares a year to a physically fragile stallion who ran 6 times than to a horse who has shown the ability and class that CC has. Our loss of him as a sire, if he indeed heads back overseas after his racing career, is well deserved. I hope he continues his success on the track and in the shed.

[Shammy_Davis]

[QUOTE=MidnightWriter;8085355]
Will the right-handed course at Ascot be a problem for him?[/QUOTE]

Yes. Art Sherman said that in interview. They are saying CC is going to be entered in 1600 m race which I think is one turn at Ascot. Maybe some one else knows for sure.

[Drvmb1ggl3]

[QUOTE=Shammy Davis;8085524]
Yes. Art Sherman said that in interview. They are saying CC is going to be entered in 1600 m race which I think is one turn at Ascot. Maybe some one else knows for sure.[/QUOTE]

No turns in the Queen Anne stakes, it’s over the straight mile course. So he just needs to run in a straight line.

Here is last year’s running of the Queen Anne, with ex-American runner Verrezano coming in 2nd place… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qxVE0kS1lg

Sometimes the horses come over to the stand side rail, as you see in the 2011 running… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbsAt2gkUtM

[Lord_Helpus]

So his first race turning to the right is the big one at Ascot? I wish CC well, he is a mervelous horse, but his connections were prescient when they names their partnership DAP.

(PS: I checked the spelling of prescient – It violates the “I before E except after C” and except when it sounds like A, as in neighbor and sleigh".

Someone lied to me way back when.)

[Pronzini]

[QUOTE=JJ’sLuckyTrain;8085518]
Perry Martin gives a response to the critics of the plan for CC:
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/91023/martin-defends-sending-chrome-to-ascot

The sad thing to me is that a horse as talented as CC is dismissed by US breeders. Folks here would rather send 100+ mares a year to a physically fragile stallion who ran 6 times than to a horse who has shown the ability and class that CC has. Our loss of him as a sire, if he indeed heads back overseas after his racing career, is well deserved. I hope he continues his success on the track and in the shed.[/QUOTE]

My own take is that Martin the businessman has already tried to shop this horse as a stallion in Kentucky and ran into reality. Yeah he is a Derby winner but so was Giacomo. Derby winners with so so pedigree and few other accomplishments generally start at $20-25,000 and that can be negotiable to the right mare. Derby winners with unusual or unfashionable pedigrees may have to go to Japan like I’ll Have Another. Maybe even Japan wasn’t interested in a son of Lucky Pulpit. The horse whose playbook they appear to be following is Animal Kingdom but AK, but leaving aside racing merit, had two things that made the move logical–his European flavored pedigree and his international connections. Dumbass Partners is no Team Valor not to mention that TV have their own mares and can support him.

This is kind of a Hail Mary play to get someone interested in him at the price they want. Maybe the horse they should try to emulate is Tiznow who arguably had a worse pedigree started out but at least had the dual Classic win cachet and his own charisma to carry him. But Shared Belief may be the bigger mountain to scale than Europe and Martin is right that a failed European trip probably wouldn’t reduce his value because it is so audacious. Being a runner up to Shared Belief multiple times or worse obviously ducking him all over the country sure wouldn’t help Chrome’s value though.

[Texarkana]

Just for fun, Kentucky Derby winners of the past 25 years who have “failed” in Kentucky and ended their stallion careers in less than glamorous locations:

Strike the Gold: exported from Kentucky to Turkey
Sea Hero: exported from Kentucky to Turkey
Go for Gin: moved from Kentucky to Maryland, where he stood for $4,000 before being retired
Grindstone: currently standing in the Pacific northwest for a mere $2,500
Real Quiet: lost the TC by a whisker yet still failed in Kentucky as a stallion and ended up standing in Pennsylvania for $5,000
Monarchos: the only reason he’s still a Kentucky stallion is because a small breeder stands him for a modest $4,000
Smarty Jones: fell from an initial $100K fee in Kentucky to standing in PA for $4,000
Giacomo: has bounced all over after retiring to KY, now in MD for $3,500
Big Brown: now in New York for $8,500 (and probably the most successful out of everyone listed above)

Of the other 16 Kentucky Derby winners, 2 were geldings (FC and MTB), 1 died before entering stud (Barbaro), 4 were exported to Japan before spending any appreciable time at stud in the US (SC, Charismatic, WE, and IHA), and 1 is still actively running (CC).

That leaves 8 Kentucky Derby winners that could be considered “successful” at stud only because they maintained a career in Kentucky for at least $7,500. And 4 of those 8 have just begun their careers.

And everyone on that list has a stronger pedigree than California Chrome.

If DAP’s intentions are to find a high dollar stallion deal, I think they are barking up the wrong tree. Even if he becomes a European racing phenom, how much more is anyone going to truly pay for a son of Lucky Pulpit out of a claiming race winning daughter of Not For Love? The pedigree just isn’t there for high dollar offers up front. He’s going to have to prove himself in the shed like any other horse of modest breeding.

[SportArab]

I think Perry Martin is having a great time with his horse and we should celebrate a happy owner who is keeping his horse in the limelight, which can only help the sport.

[Texarkana]

[QUOTE=SportArab;8086164]
I think Perry Martin is having a great time with his horse and we should celebrate a happy owner who is keeping his horse in the limelight, which can only help the sport.[/QUOTE]

Ordinarily I’d agree, but what has Perry Martin ever done that makes you think he’s enjoying any of this?

To me, I see a man who refuses to show up at the big races because he doesn’t like the scene. I see a man who complains about stuff he does not know. I see a man who wheels and deals with his horse like a commodity- trying to nickle and dime tracks over things like public appearances or where to race next.

And now he’s been wooed away to England, and many have indicated that $$$ was his motive.

Not my horse, none of my business, and I don’t know what’s going on behind the scenes… but I just cannot feel warm and fuzzy toward the horse’s connections. They make me want to face palm.

[SportArab]

Well, I see a man who’s a bit on the shy side who is doing stuff his own way and who has had amazing success considering his background, or lack thereof. No, he’s not one of the in crowd of horse racing, but I don’t think he has to be. People are SO judgmental.

[QUOTE=Texarkana;8086188]
Ordinarily I’d agree, but what has Perry Martin ever done that makes you think he’s enjoying any of this?

To me, I see a man who refuses to show up at the big races because he doesn’t like the scene. I see a man who complains about stuff he does not know. I see a man who wheels and deals with his horse like a commodity- trying to nickle and dime tracks over things like public appearances or where to race next.

And now he’s been wooed away to England, and many have indicated that $$$ was his motive.

Not my horse, none of my business, and I don’t know what’s going on behind the scenes… but I just cannot feel warm and fuzzy toward the horse’s connections. They make me want to face palm.[/QUOTE]

[Shammy_Davis]

[QUOTE=SportArab;8086237]
Well, I see a man who’s a bit on the shy side who is doing stuff his own way and who has had amazing success considering his background, or lack thereof. No, he’s not one of the in crowd of horse racing, but I don’t think he has to be. People are SO judgmental.[/QUOTE]

People are judgmental and that is what makes conversations like this. The fact that Perry Martin withheld his decision from Art Sherman is suspect. If Mike Repole pulled a stunt like this on Todd Pletcher he’d be shown the door and Todd would let the barn door kick him in the butt on the way out. Baffert, Mott, Lukas, Brown, et al would do the same.

If I had a horse like CC, I’d definitely be having fun but I wouldn’t run over the folks that brought me to the dance. I’d be doing “Repole” stuff for my wife and kids. Both Coburn and Martin are in a league of there own. It’s called the minor leagues. They are just lucky that the people they’ve walked on or disparaged are class acts and are too polite to take themselves to Steve’s and Perry’s level.

Texarkana is right about the fact that not many TC horses make it as top notch studs and there is nothing that says CC will either. Lucky Pulpit, since 2008, has had only three runners capable of paying their own bills and making a profit. With one TC caliber horse $10K has Lucky Pulpit overpriced. CC’s dam, Love the Chase is out of dying female line. Besides the winning filly and producer, Chase the Dream, only one other offspring in that line excelled and only at the unrestricted stakes level. That filly was Amocerette in 1996. Not one Grade winning horse until CC. You have to go back to 1944 to find the first Blue Hen and then 1928 for the second. Big rule of thumb at auctions is “don’t buy a horse from a dying pedigree.” We’ll never know what CC would have brought at auction. JMHO, not much.

Like Monarchos and the “fleeting genius” of Jim Squires in 2001, it is likely that CC maybe the “fleeting genius” of Perry Martin and certainly the “mute button” for Steve Coburn. The odds are very high that CC is a splash in the pan for the top and bottom of the pedigree. Perry Martin had better enjoy the ride while he can. Everyone makes a big deal about Penny Chenery, but it was her dad who bred the great horses and lots of them. Penny didn’t do much but sign autographs as a horse owner. Same for the Taylors who just dispursed what few horses they owned. Harbor View is probably the closest to developing a great horse and long lived reputation and too be perfectly honest only because of Patrice’s family connections. See any extraordinary progeny carrying Affirm’s pedigree lately.

As far as Perry Martin is concerned, there is something to being different. The problem is that it only works in politics and entertainment. Steve Coburn has definitely made for entertainment.

[Calamber]

Thankfully, having “unfashionable” or “dying” (whatever that is) lines is what makes racing interesting to a great many people. In the scheme of things as Nick Zito once said, it is just horse racing, there are many more important things that are critical to the survival of the human race. As long as the people who are involved are not that interested in the long term health and safety of the horses and the people who care for and ride them, all of this kind of discussion ends up being has beens, wannabes and hangerons debates. Just think of what these “fashionable” “live” lines have been doing for thoroughbreds of late, and let’s hope that somehow we will gain our senses and morality back and start breeding durable and long running animals again. I don’t really care what Perry Martin does with California Chrome’s as a long term investment. I do care that the horse be treated fairly and not danced all over the planet for the great glory of the not so almighty dollar.

[omare]

Some of the noted horses did have amodest second wind in their stallion careers–maybe the best thing they could do for CC is to get him some nice mares and build his reputation that way–If he has it in him to be a great stallion that is-- Would Kitten’s Joy be a model?
How they figured out the right nick-
http://www.drf.com/news/mares-who-made-kittens-joy

[Texarkana]

[QUOTE=Calamber;8086988]
Thankfully, having “unfashionable” or “dying” (whatever that is) lines is what makes racing interesting to a great many people. In the scheme of things as Nick Zito once said, it is just horse racing, there are many more important things that are critical to the survival of the human race. As long as the people who are involved are not that interested in the long term health and safety of the horses and the people who care for and ride them, all of this kind of discussion ends up being has beens, wannabes and hangerons debates. Just think of what these “fashionable” “live” lines have been doing for thoroughbreds of late, and let’s hope that somehow we will gain our senses and morality back and start breeding durable and long running animals again. I don’t really care what Perry Martin does with California Chrome’s as a long term investment. I do care that the horse be treated fairly and not danced all over the planet for the great glory of the not so almighty dollar.[/QUOTE]

A “dying” mare line is one that has stopped producing blacktype or successful racehorses and will likely stopped being reproduced in the near future. With the crop up of California Chrome, it will be interesting to see if Love the Chase or her daughter(s) produce anything else to re-invigorate the line!

California Chrome doesn’t really offer any genetic diversity with his breeding-- his pedigree is quite common and is still the same old “fashionable” lines you see on any other horse. He’s just off of less successful branches of the same old family tree. Fewer breeders are going to be inclined to pay high dollars up front for him when you can breed to a popular and proven stallion of very similar yet more successful lines. It has nothing to do with morality.

The awesome thing about breeding, though, is that you just never know. Breeders are wrong all the time. Unlikely horses prove to be great sires and the likeliest of horses sometimes flop. All we can say for certain at this time is that he’s a great racehorse with a ho-hum pedigree.

[rcloisonne]

Sunday Silence was another stallion whose pedigree didn’t generate much interest from American breeders at the time. He was thus sold to Japan where he went on to become the most successful TB stallion of all time in terms of progeny earnings (almost 3/4 of a BILLION $).

[danceronice]

[QUOTE=SportArab;8086237]
Well, I see a man who’s a bit on the shy side who is doing stuff his own way and who has had amazing success considering his background, or lack thereof. No, he’s not one of the in crowd of horse racing, but I don’t think he has to be. People are SO judgmental.[/QUOTE]

I think I’ve maybe said “hello” to the majority owner of the horses I’m in because he zipped in and out of the social hour before the race that fast. He’s not a chatterbox, either, but he seems to enjoy owning racehorses. I’m not going to judge Martin not wanting to show up for the circus even when it IS his monkeys. Not everyone wants to be out there grinning for the photos and being the focus of weepy NBC fluff spots.

And Chrome will likely eventually wind up in Japan, as they breed to race, not to sell, and JJ’sLuckyTrain is right, US breeders would rather breed to fragile speedsters with sales pedigrees. (And then we act surprise when horses drop like flies off the Derby trail because of injuries.) The only reason Sunday Silence (who had a phenomenal race record) is even still a factor in any pedigrees is entirely to Japan’s credit. No one wanted him as a colt, and despite him winning almost everything in sight save the Belmont they stayed lukewarm. So Japan got the majority of the benefit.

[SportArab]

I would disagree with your assessment of Harbor View Farm. Louis Wolfson not only built a racing stable from the ground up, but he did it twice. The second time he had help from Patrice, it’s true. But I’m sure she would tell you that he was a horseman in his own right.

I would also point out that Affirmed, like Secretariat, turned out to be a broodmare sire and you often see him a generation or so back: Harlan’s Holiday is out of an Affirmed mare, for example.

[QUOTE=Shammy Davis;8086527]
People are judgmental and that is what makes conversations like this. The fact that Perry Martin withheld his decision from Art Sherman is suspect. If Mike Repole pulled a stunt like this on Todd Pletcher he’d be shown the door and Todd would let the barn door kick him in the butt on the way out. Baffert, Mott, Lukas, Brown, et al would do the same.

If I had a horse like CC, I’d definitely be having fun but I wouldn’t run over the folks that brought me to the dance. I’d be doing “Repole” stuff for my wife and kids. Both Coburn and Martin are in a league of there own. It’s called the minor leagues. They are just lucky that the people they’ve walked on or disparaged are class acts and are too polite to take themselves to Steve’s and Perry’s level.

Texarkana is right about the fact that not many TC horses make it as top notch studs and there is nothing that says CC will either. Lucky Pulpit, since 2008, has had only three runners capable of paying their own bills and making a profit. With one TC caliber horse $10K has Lucky Pulpit overpriced. CC’s dam, Love the Chase is out of dying female line. Besides the winning filly and producer, Chase the Dream, only one other offspring in that line excelled and only at the unrestricted stakes level. That filly was Amocerette in 1996. Not one Grade winning horse until CC. You have to go back to 1944 to find the first Blue Hen and then 1928 for the second. Big rule of thumb at auctions is “don’t buy a horse from a dying pedigree.” We’ll never know what CC would have brought at auction. JMHO, not much.

Like Monarchos and the “fleeting genius” of Jim Squires in 2001, it is likely that CC maybe the “fleeting genius” of Perry Martin and certainly the “mute button” for Steve Coburn. The odds are very high that CC is a splash in the pan for the top and bottom of the pedigree. Perry Martin had better enjoy the ride while he can. Everyone makes a big deal about Penny Chenery, but it was her dad who bred the great horses and lots of them. Penny didn’t do much but sign autographs as a horse owner. Same for the Taylors who just dispursed what few horses they owned. Harbor View is probably the closest to developing a great horse and long lived reputation and too be perfectly honest only because of Patrice’s family connections. See any extraordinary progeny carrying Affirm’s pedigree lately.

As far as Perry Martin is concerned, there is something to being different. The problem is that it only works in politics and entertainment. Steve Coburn has definitely made for entertainment.[/QUOTE]

[Shammy_Davis]

[QUOTE=SportArab;8087775]
I would disagree with your assessment of Harbor View Farm. Louis Wolfson not only built a racing stable from the ground up, but he did it twice. The second time he had help from Patrice, it’s true. But I’m sure she would tell you that he was a horseman in his own right.

I would also point out that Affirmed, like Secretariat, turned out to be a broodmare sire and you often see him a generation or so back: Harlan’s Holiday is out of an Affirmed mare, for example.[/QUOTE]

Your point is well taken. I think my point is that Louis’ accolades, though maybe well deserved, was on the backs of the Jacobs family by way of conversation and history. In the case of Christopher Chenery, as an example, Penny was a horsewoman in name only. You need all check the list of horses that Chenery homebred and took the graded stakes level.

You do admit you are bit biased.

[Shammy_Davis]

[QUOTE=danceronice;8087766]
I think I’ve maybe said “hello” to the majority owner of the horses I’m in because he zipped in and out of the social hour before the race that fast. He’s not a chatterbox, either, but he seems to enjoy owning racehorses. I’m not going to judge Martin not wanting to show up for the circus even when it IS his monkeys. Not everyone wants to be out there grinning for the photos and being the focus of weepy NBC fluff spots.

And Chrome will likely eventually wind up in Japan, as they breed to race, not to sell, and JJ’sLuckyTrain is right, US breeders would rather breed to fragile speedsters with sales pedigrees. (And then we act surprise when horses drop like flies off the Derby trail because of injuries.) The only reason Sunday Silence (who had a phenomenal race record) is even still a factor in any pedigrees is entirely to Japan’s credit. No one wanted him as a colt, and despite him winning almost everything in sight save the Belmont they stayed lukewarm. So Japan got the majority of the benefit.[/QUOTE]

Very well put. Like you say, he is going to the circus with his monkeys. Surely, with that in mind, you don’t agree with how Martin handled the other connections in this matter? I for one worry more about the message that sends than where CC will end up.

As for Japan, they have the money to invest. As I recall Arthur Hancock was on the verge of bankruptcy when the purchase order for SS went through. Oddly, and someone may want to correct me on this, but there is very little Sunday Silence blood in the Australasia market. Everytime I say “that reminds me of,” I get into trouble, but hopefully the Japanese harboring of SS blood will not turn out like Sam Riddle’s captive broodmare band. Lord knows, we’re finally seeing an end to the breeding conversation about Man o’War. Some decades back to what appeared to be shock, Spy Song just up and vanished. Along with Gallant Man etc.