What stallions would you not want to see doubled up or line bred on a page

[paulamc]

inbreeding is within the first 3 generations, line breeding is from 4the generation back

of course we have the benefit of history and looking at the great stallions and mares pedigrees and this is what has enabled the experts to draw conclusions from these pedigrees

with inbreeding you have to be very careful with negative recessive genes and if doing this close which I am not, you have to make sure your target is sound and of good temperament and without major faults

I am interested in hearing from any breeders who have any thoughts or ideas about pedigree analysis

the tesio system is the only one that actually gives you a way to analyse pedigrees - that I have found. I haven’t found any other tool to help me with pedigree analysis

but I am all ears if anyone has anything like this to contribute - other than matching up mares and stallions by type which really doesn’t work in my experience

before I came across this I didn’t have a clue what to look for when choosing stallions for my mares, other than obvious ’ nicks’ that have worked before or just using bloodlines that I like, without ever knowing how they connect together

Paulamc

[back_in_the_saddle]

Regarding proven “nicks” in the horse world, do you know why, or is there a common connection between the Donnerhall and Rubinstein lines? Is there anything pedigree wise for these two that jumps out on paper as yes, this makes sense?

When I look at Damon Hill’s pedigree, there are no duplicates that I see in the first 5 generations.

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=paulamc;7174122]

I am interested in hearing from any breeders who have any thoughts or ideas about pedigree analysis

the tesio system is the only one that actually gives you a way to analyse pedigrees - that I have found. I haven’t found any other tool to help me with pedigree analysis

but I am all ears if anyone has anything like this to contribute - other than matching up mares and stallions by type which really doesn’t work in my experience

before I came across this I didn’t have a clue what to look for when choosing stallions for my mares, other than obvious ’ nicks’ that have worked before or just using bloodlines that I like, without ever knowing how they connect together

Paulamc[/QUOTE]

Viney posted an article from this site, which as plenty of ideas for pedigree analysis:http://www.compusire.com/csmethods.html

She also mentioned an author who adheres to the “mare cluster” theory…I think she posted a link to that article on the 1st or 2nd page of this thread.

Believe me, there are plenty of various theories of breeding; Tesio’s was just one.

One thing I DO find interesting is how genes are "attached " to one another, but often in ways we would never expect.

For instance, the long-running experiment in Russia with the foxes. Many years ago they started this experiment with grey foxes raised for fur. They began to breeding STRICTLY for friendliness to humans. No other trait mattered. If the fox was friendly to people, it got bred to another fox who was friendly to humans.

Well, very quickly (2 generations or thereabouts) the actual APPEARANCE of these “friendly” foxes changed; the shape and carriage of their tails, their ears and the shape of their heads all changed. They went from solid colored to spotted! None of these physical characteristics were present in the first generation of foxes, btw.

But it shows that if you breed for just ONE trait, something else is going to be effected.

[Swing]

[QUOTE=madamlb;7163122]
Yeah … Jazz, Ferro … no. Temperament is too important to me. Some Dutch pedigrees shock me a bit. A young stallion here in Aus which is Vivaldi/Ferro and being marketed at amies who will all rush out to breed to the next big thing without understanding that pedigree and what it means …

I like Donnerhall twice on a pedigree :)[/QUOTE]

Hi mdamlb. Just wondering what you meant by this? Im in Australia and just about to AI to this particular stallion. What kind of mare would you suggest with him? Thanks in advance

[beowulf]

regarding the foxes - this is a topic i actually KNOW something about! belyaev bred for domestication, (read: friendliness) which causes neoteny and other ‘abnormalities’ in a breeding population. neoteny (aka infantile appearances like floppy ears, small skulls) is closely expressed alongside domestication, which is why the foxes became spotted – it is argued that the melanin hormone present is higher than normal in these friendly foxes is what causes the fur pattern deformities, or pigmentation to change!

fwiw, these foxes are now available to the avg consumer for 2k a pop!

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=beowulf;7175388]

fwiw, these foxes are now available to the avg consumer for 2k a pop![/QUOTE]

Yes, I heard that, although I didn’t know the price. I watched a documentry on this and those buggers are very cute.

It was a fascinating experiment.

[vineyridge]

Here’s a link to a 9 generation pedigree of Damon Hill from Horsetelex.
http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/pedigree/36017?levels=9

There is a good bit of linebreeding back in the far reaches of his pedigree.

[paulamc]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;7175560]
Here’s a link to a 9 generation pedigree of Damon Hill from Horsetelex.
http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/pedigree/36017?levels=9

There is a good bit of linebreeding back in the far reaches of his pedigree.[/QUOTE]

So if people are saying there are ’ tons of breeding theories’ and ways to analyse pedigrees - what are they?

i dont think this is true. the cluster mare theory is pretty much the tesio theory - which is building up sibling relationships and inbreeding to superior females. Siblings dont even have to be related via the dam line, its enough if three quarters of their parents and grandparents are in common

alot of the theories are all saying the same thing - inbreed to superior females and sex balance, or follow the large heart gene

all the TB experts are saying the same thing as well, i have many of the books of these ‘experts’. Ken Mclean - dEsiging speed in the TB
cliver harper - ‘The TB broodmare book’

they are all saying the same thing

The cluster mare theory is building sibling relationships as well

Of course we have the benefit and hindsight of history =this is how the experts have worked all this out and the good horses have all had the same thing

its different for different classes of horses too. A horse can be a good performance horse but not a good breeder (end product)

good fillies have a different pedigree structure to good colts

but all really top stallions need to have ‘filly factors’ to be really powerful producers and they all do pretty much if you care to look at the pedigrees

so if you build pedigrees with the same type of structure that the great horses had, it makes sense that you are likely to have a better horse than if you just pick a stallion you like for your mare. it makes sense to me anyway

like i said before, many breeders are not looking for answers, but i was and am

i would be very interested to know what all these other pedigree theories are, because all the experts i have looked at and the various theories i have seen are all saying the same thing

Paulamc

[vineyridge]

The cluster mare theory was first postulated by a Brit named Dennis Craig in 1964 in his book Breeding Racehorses from Cluster Mares. I have it. It’s very interesting and goes back to the mares at the foundation of the breed. It also has pedigree analyses of many of the great stallions going back as far as Matchem using the theory. As far as I can tell, he doesn’t try to recreate Tesio.

If you can get hold of a copy, you probably should.

[omare]

True Nicks tries to rebut [the tesio and sex balanced theories]but the [truenick]business relies on many of these theories not being true. (And the fact he sets up these theories as “metaphysically” based is like setting up a straw man to knock down)

http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/truenicks/archive/2012/03/02/inbreeding.aspx
(2012)
http://compusire.com/sexbalancing.html
(1998)

A real zinger:
“Apart from this, he missed what Schopenhauer took for granted: that, beyond its role in reproduction, including the genetic regularities that pertain to it, gender is an empty vessel.”

[mareslave]

doubling up the stallions? stallions…shmallions…
for a shot of greaaaaat MARE (welton gazelle), if I were daring, I’d be tempted to put a yarlands summer song mare to catherson dazzler for a 47% Welton gazelle foal, especially a filly… but I’m too chicken

[yourcolorfuladdictio]

So in my opinion, since we breed Young Rider/Amateur friendly horses:

I would prefer not to see Sandro Hit doubled up… or at all. Not because he can’t make a great foal crossed with the right lines but because he tends to throw “hot” babies if he’s not crossed with predominantly level-headed lines. This is all just in my experience (Sandro HitxTB foal vs Sir DonnerhallxR line mare)

We did, however, breed our HanoverianxTB mare to Winterprinz (who is fairly closely bred with World Cup I on both sides of pedigree) and the colt (now gelded) is built exactly how a W lined Hanoverian should look (and moves like it too). Even as an unbroke 3 year old he is pretty fancy out in the pasture!

There are a lot of jumper lines like Cor de la Bryere I see doubled up in pedigrees, although I’d rather see a solid Cor de la Bryere x Galoubet A pedigree instead (like Balou du Rouet’s) as the mix seems to produce better than simply one or the other.

[rodawn]

[QUOTE=back in the saddle;7174146]
Regarding proven “nicks” in the horse world, do you know why, or is there a common connection between the Donnerhall and Rubinstein lines? Is there anything pedigree wise for these two that jumps out on paper as yes, this makes sense? [/QUOTE]

Devil’s Own xx / Detektiv is the common denominator between both Rubinstein and Donnerhall. Detektiv is a direct sireline to Donnerhall. Whereas, he comes through the granddam’s sireline for Rubinstein. Detektiv is technically the result of line breeding to Devil’s Own, balanced, top and bottom.

However, only Donnerhall is considered to be a direct inheritor of Detektiv since it is a direct sireline. Whereas Rubinstein is a direct inheritor from Ramzes AA because that is his direct sireline.

The real “nick” for Donnerhall proved to be Pik Bube I, and both stallions contain Detektiv and Devil’s Own xx. Putting a Pik Bube I Mare to Donnerhall gave you a “balanced” pedigree since Detektiv then came through the mareline and then again through Donnerhall’s direct sireline.

Pik Bube I is interesting since his sire Pik Konig was the result of line breeding to the thoroughbred Pik As xx. The TB stallion Pik As xx is Pik Konig’s direct father, but also comes through his motherline. As a direct result of his breeding, Pik Bube I was famous for being a progenitor of superior rideability and temperament.

Just looking at Pik Bube’s Pedigree provides a visual explanation for what a lot of people are discussing on this particular thread:

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?d=Pik+Bube+I&sex=s&color=&dog_breed=any&birthyear=&birthland=

Also for what it’s worth, any member of the genetic family can pop up at any time into an offspring. Detektiv is considered the direct sireline inheritor to Donnerhall because his presence is still felt. Just because you can’t see it in the first 5 generations, doesn’t mean it won’t show up somewhere in the future.

[omare]

Interesting the point about traits popping up from 5 generations back- perhaps this fact (or observation) would indicate the Truenick “rebuttal” statistics are flawed as I think he limited how far back he looked for the effect of breeding patterns he was trying to refute or take down.

[back_in_the_saddle]

[QUOTE=rodawn;7179646]
Devil’s Own xx / Detektiv is the common denominator between both Rubinstein and Donnerhall. Detektiv is a direct sireline to Donnerhall. Whereas, he comes through the granddam’s sireline for Rubinstein. Detektiv is technically the result of line breeding to Devil’s Own, balanced, top and bottom.

However, only Donnerhall is considered to be a direct inheritor of Detektiv since it is a direct sireline. Whereas Rubinstein is a direct inheritor from Ramzes AA because that is his direct sireline.

The real “nick” for Donnerhall proved to be Pik Bube I, and both stallions contain Detektiv and Devil’s Own xx. Putting a Pik Bube I Mare to Donnerhall gave you a “balanced” pedigree since Detektiv then came through the mareline and then again through Donnerhall’s direct sireline.

Pik Bube I is interesting since his sire Pik Konig was the result of line breeding to the thoroughbred Pik As xx. The TB stallion Pik As xx is Pik Konig’s direct father, but also comes through his motherline. As a direct result of his breeding, Pik Bube I was famous for being a progenitor of superior rideability and temperament.

Just looking at Pik Bube’s Pedigree provides a visual explanation for what a lot of people are discussing on this particular thread:

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?d=Pik+Bube+I&sex=s&color=&dog_breed=any&birthyear=&birthland=

Also for what it’s worth, any member of the genetic family can pop up at any time into an offspring. Detektiv is considered the direct sireline inheritor to Donnerhall because his presence is still felt. Just because you can’t see it in the first 5 generations, doesn’t mean it won’t show up somewhere in the future.[/QUOTE]

My mare’s dam line is the same as Frustra II who is the damsire of Pik Bube I. How can I use this to my advantage?

[vineyridge]

[QUOTE=omare;7179748]
Interesting the point about traits popping up from 5 generations back- perhaps this fact (or observation) would indicate the Truenick “rebuttal” statistics are flawed as I think he limited how far back he looked for the effect of breeding patterns he was trying to refute or take down.[/QUOTE]

@omare;7179748

Interesting the point about traits popping up from 5 generations back- perhaps this fact (or observation) would indicate the Truenick “rebuttal” statistics are flawed as I think he limited how far back he looked for the effect of breeding patterns he was trying to refute or take down.

I don’t know if any of you will find this interesting, but this year’s winner of the British St. Leger, a race for three years that just under 3000 meters (1 3/4 miles) is a horse named Leading Light. Pedigree is here: http://www.pedigreequery.com/leading+light4

The St. Leger is part of the English Triple Crown for 3 yos, but most of the most highly touted colts skip it, even though Europe has many staying races. Many of them aim for the Arc instead, which is 1 1/2 miles (about) . I think a good part of this is that the breeders like the speed on top, so the qualities that the St. Leger illuminates are not highly desired in the breeding shed, much as our Belmont winners don’t seem to make waves as stallions these days–and the Belmont is 1/4 of a mile shorter than the St. Leger

Montjeu is a top Irish sire for Coolmore. The dam is classic ND x Mr. P North American breeding.

Reason I bring this up in this context is that the sire has multiple lines to the Prince Rose sons, Prince Chevalier and Prince Bio, while the tail female line goes to Monarchy, a full sister to Round Table by Princequillo, the third of the sons, who is also Somethingroyal’s sire. There are also a number of lines both top and bottom to Nasrullah. The Prince Rose sons are famous for their staying power, while Nasrullah was a pure sprinter. But there was a very well known nick between those two lines in the past.

I’m now speculating that that nick might have been at work in this pedigree, even though the lines are many generations back, but there are MANY of them. And there is also Royal Charger in the pedigree who is Nasrullah’s 3/4 brother.

There are also many lines to Gainsborough and the amount of St. Simon is almost staggering. And many, many lines to Canterbury Pilgrim.

[Elles]

Northern Dancer has 13.2 % St. Simon. Some people consider St. Simon a speed influence.

[Kaluna]

Epigenetic marks are erased at birth. They aren’t inherited. Not sure why people are talking about that here. Line breeding can emphasize good qualities and magnify bad ones. I don’t closely line breed and never would buy a horse closely line bred. I look for complimentary lines and hybrid vigor. The whole of sport horses is sufficiently inbred, people are often breeding braeburn apples to Fuji apples, not apples to oranges.

[vineyridge]

I’ve just been re-reading Avalyn Hunter’s book on Northern Dancer, The Kingmaker. She has a small section on Tesio, and says that he, unlike most modern breeders, preferred the speed to come from the dam lines and the stamina from the sire line. One thing that TB breeding has shown is that until recently and Nearctic the default trait is stamina and regular infusions of speed are needed to keep lines from becoming “plodders.”

How this insight could be applied to sport horse breeding, I have no idea.

Kaluna, close inbreeding does work and works well for breeders who plan to breed for multiple generations. The history of both the Arabian and the TB proves the value of judicious inbreeding.

[Elles]

Like in St. Simon, he had 19.3% Herod in his pedigree while Herod can not be seen in his 5 generations pedigree but Voltaire and Sultan can be seen.
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=783229&blood=10&quota=

Just like Frankel has 18.8% Northern Dancer but Northern Dancer is 3 x 4.
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10653903&blood=10&quota=