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What stallions would you not want to see doubled up or line bred on a page

Sport Horse Breeding
#81

[QUOTE=mareslave;7179390]
doubling up the stallions? stallions…shmallions…
for a shot of greaaaaat MARE (welton gazelle), if I were daring, I’d be tempted to put a yarlands summer song mare to catherson dazzler for a 47% Welton gazelle foal, especially a filly… but I’m too chicken :cool:[/QUOTE]

I would agree with you. Take a look at the pedigree of Sir Gregory, a young up& coming stallion recently imported to the USA:

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/sir+gregory

Notice the doubling up on “Granate” on the bottom side. According to this thread, he is INBRED to her x2. Obviously the breeder thought a great deal of this mare to try this breeding, but it turned out well.

Personally, if I had the stock, I’d double (or even triple) up on a mare like Loretta for example without hesitation.

Like use a SH daughter w/Diamond Hit. Surely someone has done this already?

There is no reason NOT to try this, but it’s more difficult simply because mares don’t produce as many get as stallions do.

#82

Just had a rather interesting to me thought. National Hunt Breeding in the UK uses speed on the top and stamina on the bottom. Tesio for flat racing classic distances wanted stamina on top and speed on the bottom.

So would y’all think it might mean that it matters whether a particular trait or feature or type came through the sire or the dam? Would you be inclined to select for that?

#83

[QUOTE=Kaluna;7181192]
Epigenetic marks are erased at birth. They aren’t inherited. Not sure why people are talking about that here. Line breeding can emphasize good qualities and magnify bad ones. I don’t closely line breed and never would buy a horse closely line bred. I look for complimentary lines and hybrid vigor. The whole of sport horses is sufficiently inbred, people are often breeding braeburn apples to Fuji apples, not apples to oranges.[/QUOTE]

I’m not sure this is true. I’m far from an expert, but according to the PBS special I watched, this sort of stuff can be seen GENERATIONS later. I’m pretty sure they identified this event as “epigenetics.”

As for line-breeding – there are almost no experienced, successful breeders of any mammal that don’t utilize the practice of linebreeding or even inbreeding.

Indeed, as Viney says, if you look at the history of all the major breeds, many MANY of the most popular & successful horses have been the result of these practices.

Again, I may be wrong on my terminology, but I always thought the term “hybrid vigor” described breeding two different breeds or species. Otherwise it would just be called an “outcross.” So breeding apples to oranges is hybrid; otherwise it’s just an outcross.

Anyone – please clarify the proper usage of these terms. Because apparently I’ve been INBREEDING when I thought I was LINEBREEDING.:winkgrin: Whatever…

Yes, either practice can blow up in your face (as illustrated by Impressive), but it can also produce seriously improved stock that pack a fantastic genetic punch.

That is where the research part comes in…

#84

[QUOTE=yourcolorfuladdiction;7179557]
So in my opinion, since we breed Young Rider/Amateur friendly horses:

I would prefer not to see Sandro Hit doubled up… or at all. Not because he can’t make a great foal crossed with the right lines but because he tends to throw “hot” babies if he’s not crossed with predominantly level-headed lines. This is all just in my experience (Sandro HitxTB foal vs Sir DonnerhallxR line mare)[/QUOTE]

I find your experience interesting, because it does not reflect mine at all. I have a Weltmeyer mare who is very much a Weltmeyer.

Although I have never bred her to SH directly, I have bred her to 2 different SH sons: Schroeder & Soprano.

Neither of these foals (both fillies) are old enough to be started u/s, so I have only their ground manners to judge, but both are pretty easy, calm & not “hot” at all. ESPECIALLY the Schroeder filly…now 2.5 yrs old. She is bold, friendly, VERY outgoing and likes people a great deal. Not difficult to handle at all and not what I would call spooky or silly about things.

The Soprano filly is only 3 mos old (barely) and seems to be abit sharper than her sister so far, but not NEAR as hot/spooky/reactive as many other foals I’ve bred. In fact the hottest, silliest (WB) foal I’ve produced was o/o a TB mare and sired by an E-line stallion.

So, while I would probably not double up on SH himself for other reasons (like a sort of slow hind leg), in my experience his babies have not been super hot. But again, I’m talking about sons…not the Big Boy himself…

#85

This is a very closely bred pedigree from back in the early days (not really THAT early) of the TB. Sire’s tail female and dam’s tail female are the same and there’s another line to her as well.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/treasure

She is the tail female line for Sierra, one of the all time great broodmares, who is also very closely bred.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/sierra

#86

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7181623]
I’m not sure this is true. I’m far from an expert, but according to the PBS special I watched, this sort of stuff can be seen GENERATIONS later. I’m pretty sure they identified this event as “epigenetics.”

As for line-breeding – there are almost no experienced, successful breeders of any mammal that don’t utilize the practice of linebreeding or even inbreeding.

Indeed, as Viney says, if you look at the history of all the major breeds, many MANY of the most popular & successful horses have been the result of these practices.

Again, I may be wrong on my terminology, but I always thought the term “hybrid vigor” described breeding two different breeds or species. Otherwise it would just be called an “outcross.” So breeding apples to oranges is hybrid; otherwise it’s just an outcross.

Anyone – please clarify the proper usage of these terms. Because apparently I’ve been INBREEDING when I thought I was LINEBREEDING.:winkgrin: Whatever…

Yes, either practice can blow up in your face (as illustrated by Impressive), but it can also produce seriously improved stock that pack a fantastic genetic punch.

That is where the research part comes in…[/QUOTE]It is true, do your own research. Epigenetic marks are erased at birth they aren’t transmitted by the gametes. That’s common knowledge in science. INBREEDING isn’t a great idea because genetic issues (look up crossovers, mutations) can get amplified along with the good qualities. Who thinks inbreeding is a good idea for the long term? Do tell. Good line breeding isn’t inbreeding. Yea, some highly inbred horses have been great but you wouldn’t want to keep the inbreeding going and some highly inbred horses transmit a mess with their good genes.
Hybrid vigor is when outside traits are introduced to a gene pool. The ones with varied genes at a specific loci are more successful than the inbred ones. We have zero identified loci for “dressageness” and “rideability” and we have no idea what causes the genetic punch you’re talking about. Or if there is a genetic punch and how much it depends on the training punch. Line breeding good traits line breeds also bad traits. You gotta be really aware of this.

#87

[QUOTE=Kaluna;7182139]
It is true, do your own research. Epigenetic marks are erased at birth they aren’t transmitted by the gametes. That’s common knowledge in science. INBREEDING isn’t a great idea because genetic issues (look up crossovers, mutations) can get amplified along with the good qualities. Who thinks inbreeding is a good idea for the long term? Do tell. Good line breeding isn’t inbreeding. Yea, some highly inbred horses have been great but you wouldn’t want to keep the inbreeding going and some highly inbred horses transmit a mess with their good genes.
Hybrid vigor is when outside traits are introduced to a gene pool. The ones with varied genes at a specific loci are more successful than the inbred ones. We have zero identified loci for “dressageness” and “rideability” and we have no idea what causes the genetic punch you’re talking about. Or if there is a genetic punch and how much it depends on the training punch. Line breeding good traits line breeds also bad traits. You gotta be really aware of this.[/QUOTE]

Inbreeding must be done carefully for sure but many breeds started this way. look at the holstein Loretto whose presence is still felt in pedigrees today and this is w hy

INschallah is inbred, so is hohenstein, and ladykiller and ferdinand are 3 x 3 to three quarter brothers

there are so many examples they cant all be listed here

you have to make sure your targets are superior athletes and sound horses, then it is ok

the stallion Sir Gregory that was mentioned above is a good example as well - he has both a son and daughter of the mare Granate on the third generation, and donnerhall sex balanced

this is a marvelous pedigree and he should be a great stallion. Good stallions need filly factors and sons and daughter of a mare are a filly factor - it would be better though if one of these were on both sides of the pedigree though instead of just on the bottom

i dont think sandro hit or his dam loretta is a good linebreeding target at all. Yes loretta produced 3 stallion sons but she herself does not have any filly factors so would nt be that much benefit to be doubling up on her, even if you could find a daughter of hers to combine with sandro hit

its better to choose mares to linebreed to that have good filly factors in their pedigree, you will get far more of a genetic punch

Paulamc

#88

[QUOTE=Kaluna;7182139]
INBREEDING isn’t a great idea because genetic issues (look up crossovers, mutations) can get amplified along with the good qualities. Who thinks inbreeding is a good idea for the long term? Do tell. Good line breeding isn’t inbreeding. [/QUOTE]

Per THIS thread, the term “inbreeding” is defined as having the same animal appear more than once in the first 4 generations. “Linebreeding” is the same except farther back.

Per those definitions, who thinks Inbreeding is a good idea? Well,that would be about every top horse breeder since Time began. WAAAY before people even knew there was a such a thing as “genes” breeders were doing this. And, as Paulamc and Viney state, you could fill this board with examples in just about every breed we have.

I personally can’t think of ANY breed of horse where both methods haven’t been used extensively. Many of the most important early producers of many breeds were heavily linebred/inbred.

I think it’s pretty much proven as a very useful tool to bring that “genetic punch” (meaning a horse that consistently produces certain desirable characteristics – could be anything from a “halter type” to speed in a TB…depends on the breed). I don’t even think that’s debatable, because history has shown it’s value.

But, like any tool, the talent of the user determines it’s outcome. And, it terms of breeders, I do believe there is a component of luck.

The famed Arab Khemosabi is a perfect example. The guy bred ONE horse in his life and it was Khemo…I mean, what are the odds?

And just for fun, I looked up Khemo’s pedigree. Paulamc – you are going to LOVE this…:winkgrin:

Even if you go back farther, there is sex-balanced breeding all over this guy’s pedigree…it’s like they read Tesio’s book…except most of it was done before Tesio was in short pants (not exactly, but I doubt they were in communication).

Somebody figured this out many, many years ago simply by trial & error, and breeders have been doing this (or a variation of this) since then.

[URL=“http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/khemosabi”]http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/khemosabi

#89

i had a look at Khemos pedigree and while it is very good , the important mares except for Ferda are confined to one half of the pedigree only rather than being on both sides

there is a son and daughter of Ferda 3 x 7 but i would like to see it a bit closer than the 7th generation to really have a huge impact

i prefer the pedigree of hohenstein or lauries crusador for a really powerful female based pedigree

but thanks for showing me the pedigree anyway

paulamc

#90

[QUOTE=paulamc;7183343]
i had a look at Khemos pedigree and while it is very good , the important mares except for Ferda are confined to one half of the pedigree only rather than being on both sides

there is a son and daughter of Ferda 3 x 7 but i would like to see it a bit closer than the 7th generation to really have a huge impact

i prefer the pedigree of hohenstein or lauries crusador for a really powerful female based pedigree

but thanks for showing me the pedigree anyway

paulamc[/QUOTE]

But I guess that proves my point. Khemo is one of the most famous & prolific Arabs of modern times…heck, of ANY time. He produced thousands of babies over his career and stamped almost all of them with his looks (bay with white), and his ability to perform. If you want performance Arabs, the appearance of Khemo in the first or second generation will pretty much insure it.

And even with his grandkids or great grand kids, that “Khemo” stamp will often come through. He was seriously prepotent. So his pedigree apparently was good enough…he WAY outperformed either Hohenstein or LC in terms of production…

#91

As a very late-comer to this discussion…
What are people’s thoughts on the Stallion Duke of Oldenburg? His Dam is the result of crossing 2 full-siblings. The sire is De-niro.

When I first started seriously looking at stallions for my mares I looked at specifi nicks that had worked well and tried to follow that. I also like line-breeding and have line bred to Donnerhall a few times and plan on doing that again this season.
I guess I came at it with a bit of TB breeding knowledge and like to double up in the 3 x 4 or 4 x 4 generations. It is hard to double up individual mares in pedigrees as they only produce so many progeny.

As for definitions of inbreeding vs line breeding. I was always taught at uni that in-breeding was breeding direct relations eg father to daughter, mother to son and full siblings. Line-breeding is doubling up a common ancestor eg donnerhall. Most pedigrees seem to focus on the doubling or specific crosses of sire-lines as opposed to a mare-line.

Back to “nicks”…

Can pedigree gurus say why the B x W line is so successful?

Also where does the R line fit in today’s modern breeding program’s? It’s influence seems to be diminishing.

#92

Regarding one of the earlier posters and mentioning ‘inbred’ stallions, Hohenstein is not inbred or even really could he be defined as linebred. Duke of Oldenburg, in my humble opinion, is one young stallion to watch, both performance and progeny. Again, not claiming total expertise and or ‘authority’ on this topic, for my breeding career – about 10 years, I have heard that Caprimond is one of the few that not only would it be worthwhile trying this breeding but that it more often than not is very positive. And Saffi – linebreeding Donnerhall, yes! That said, again I have been counseled to keep it at least 3 back on both top and bottom, but again depending on the ‘others’ in the mix a closer linebreeding might indeed work well. But my all time favorite, and this is not news to many, DeNiro!!! :slight_smile:

Oh – and just noticed the final line in the above post – my perspective is that the R-line is indeed continuing regarding today’s breeding programs. In fact, I believe there seems to be a resurgence of interest in and use of the irreplaceable R-line. Think of the resulting lineage of the Duke of Oldenburg crossed with an R-line mare . . . . just thinking. :slight_smile:

#93

Moose tail farm… I was actually thinking Duke of Oldenburg over a D line mare!

More generally…I have been wondering how to infuse some R line but the direct at line stallions are not exactly abundant and finding one with R line that exhibits and hopefully passes on the traits you are after is probably even rarer!

The few WB’s I have line bred to D line have been 3 x 3 with D being on the mare side of the stallion (s x d stallion) and the sire side of the mare. It has worked well.
I am now going to put one of the resulting progeny to don Frederic so the foal will be 3 x 4 x 4 to Donnerhall. I did give this a lot of thought but the Germans have beat me to it as I am seeing quite a few foals with the same tripling up of Donnerhall. I had also contemplated putting Furstenball over the above D line mare as he is probably my pick of the FH sons.

However, I guess one if the major constraints in horse breeding is that often you want an end product breeding to produce something wow to sell as opposed to building a pedigree by crossing specific horses with the idea that you will then see the ultimate horse in the next generation or the one after etc etc. the whole process is made all the slower if you get a colt!
By line breeding heavily you eventually get to a point where you have to outcries and start again as I honestly don’t think you get much influence from individual stallions past the 4th or maybe 5th generation. Instead you get their influence from their sons and daughters IF you have selected horses that actually show some of the original traits but are better horses themselves! Isn’t that why you breed… To improve the breed??

One of the aspects of breeding that I enjoy most is carefully selecting the combinations of pedigrees and then seeing if your predictions eventuate.

#94

Saffi – now you have me totally intrigued! Tell me about the D-line mare you are thinking about regarding the Duke of Oldenburg? Not knowing exactly what traits you are after regarding breeding with the R-line, there is indeed one I can suggest you study. Rosenthal, standing at High Point Hanoverians, is extraordinary. I ‘know’ Rosi personally, and he is fantastic in and of himself as well as an amazing sire. Rosenthal is a direct Rubenstein son, out of a Caprimond – whoops, edit here, I meant Karon mare, Caprimond’s sire –mare. What a phenominal combination. At this very moment my DeNiro daughter is in foal to Rosenthal. This will be her second foal from the R-line ---- first one will be talked about soon enough. Further to my dedication to these tried, true and proven lines, my Donnerhall/Akzent II daughter (yes, 3/4 sister to DeNiro!) is also in foal to Rosi.

I, too, am more than fascinated by the study of the pedigrees, the ‘niches’ that exist, the ‘niches’ that can be found – and never a casual decision about a stallion/mare combination is made here! One more for your thoughts – that DeNiro/Hohenstein or Caprimond combination is phenominal. I have two of them, a 3 year old filly and a 6 month onld colt, both DeNiro/Hohenstein, full sister and brother.

#95

From my graduate cell biology class last year, some epigenetic markers can be passed on. Mostly this has been observed in fruit flies and it’s still not well understood. Epigenetic markers change based on development and environmental effects. It’s still a pretty new area in biology so we don’t really understand how epigenetic markers work completely so their relationship to any breeding discussion is going to be pure speculation.

#96

I started with a Bolero granddaughter; a daughter of Batido (E-line mare line). I bred this mare to Rubino Bellisimo (Rubinstein + B-line) and Weltmeyer. The first filly came out better than the dam (the R line), but with a head like a moose.

The W+B filly had terrible orthopedic issues at birth that were not correctly dealt with (I was a new breeder and had a bad vet), but even without those issues, she was nothing to brag about from the withers back. Certainly not an improvement.

I bred the R-line mare to Rosenthal afew years ago… so we are talking Rubinstein 2x3. Here are some pics of the of the result (shown at age 4).
http://www.flickr.com/photos/99704127@N03/sets/72157634896086804/

Very nice mare; VERY pretty. Nice gaits, but not naturally WOW!!! although she did trot well enough to win her class & the mare championship at our in-hand show against an older, highly decorated mare. Abit longish in the back and abit light in the hindquarters for me. A very light, elegant mover, but lacks abit of power. But, like many R-line horses, they can be molded into top level horses because they have so much TRY. They just aren’t that fancy to begin with.

But in terms of linebreeding, I do not consider this experiment to be a super-success; the one thing you have to watch with Caprimond (and perhaps Karon) is a lightness in the hindquarters. This was NOT improved by much IMHO, although the mare is very nice.

As far as R-line stallion choices, there are afew; Rosenthal, Rotspon (his frozen is super), Rubino B, Royal Diamond (full brother to Rohdiamont)…but the farther from Rubinstein himself we get, it seems to me that the phenotypical influence wanes, although that super mind continues on.

As for the Weltmeyer mare, although she herself is nothing to brag about, her foals have been spectacular!! All three (by 3 different stallions) have won their inspections, been Gold premium and been VAST improvements on the mare.

In fact, at this last inspection where the mare’s 2.5 mos old Soprano daughter topped the inspection and scored a whopping 8.6 in movement, the German inspector made a comment that was later translated to me to mean, “Wow, that funky mare sure does make beautiful babies!”:lol:

So far the best nick with her seems to be a Sandro Hit son w/ a jumper mare line. Both Schroeder (SH+Escudo) and Soprano (SH+Contender) have made fantastic foals!

The Schroeder filly is for sale and has been deemed a strong upper level & Young Horse Championship candidate by 2 GP riders I trust. Here are her pics:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/99704127@N03/sets/72157634924239880/

All her gaits are super, but her trot is simply amazing!!! And she can “sit” like nobodies business. SUPER athletic and balanced. Abit plain in the head, but she’s still growing.

The Soprano filly is super, super fancy and a keeper for sure. Could be the best thing I’ve bred so far…here is a video of her at about 30 days…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9iz3ZfECpw

I’ve already decided who I’m going to breed her to: DeNiro!!

At least, if I live that long…

#97

I’m not sure this is true. If you go to the Klosterhof-Medingen site:
http://klosterhof-medingen.pro-equi.de/cms/front_content.php?idcat=38&lang=2
it would seem Wega is either the mother of Wega W. or they are not related at all. A pedigree on Superior Equines shows 2 different mares:http://www.superiorequinesires.com/stallions/dukeofoldenburg.shtml

I think perhaps the name “Wega” may have been attached to several mares…not sure how closely they are related to each other.

#98

I think Kysteke is correct. I looked at the brochure for DofO and it shows this: dam of Canaster is Wega Weisenna by Volkorn, while the dam of Wegas Tochter is Wega by Futuro. Guess Wega is a popular name for a mare! :slight_smile: By the way what are you referring to with regard to “filly factors”?

#99

http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/pedigree/7148

#100

[QUOTE=Kaluna;7182139]
It is true, do your own research. Epigenetic marks are erased at birth they aren’t transmitted by the gametes. That’s common knowledge in science. INBREEDING isn’t a great idea because genetic issues (look up crossovers, mutations) can get amplified along with the good qualities. Who thinks inbreeding is a good idea for the long term? Do tell. Good line breeding isn’t inbreeding. Yea, some highly inbred horses have been great but you wouldn’t want to keep the inbreeding going and some highly inbred horses transmit a mess with their good genes.
Hybrid vigor is when outside traits are introduced to a gene pool. The ones with varied genes at a specific loci are more successful than the inbred ones. We have zero identified loci for “dressageness” and “rideability” and we have no idea what causes the genetic punch you’re talking about. Or if there is a genetic punch and how much it depends on the training punch. Line breeding good traits line breeds also bad traits. You gotta be really aware of this.[/QUOTE]

Not to fire some shots but why don’t YOU show us YOUR research? I was NEVER taught in college (I took an Equine Repro class) that epigenetic marks are “erased” at birth – I was taught they can come up later in a generation from an ancestor. If my professor was wrong, please tell me and provide me with the links thereof.

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