Anytime I look through the “For Sale” ads for horses I wonder - How does one define the various rider levels? Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced etc. Some of the other designations I’ve seen are Confident Rider or even Sensitive. Can you be an intermediate rider and still confident or sensitive? I realize this is all completely subjective but I’m curious as to how the COTH community would define these.
If find there to be two different intermediate riders the “beginner intermediate” and the intermediate. It seems that beginner intermediate is most often what is meant when people say intermediate rider. Beginner intermediate riders, in my mind are on well broke horses doing walk, trot, and canter independently. On the other hand I consider myself an intermediate rider (silver medal in dressage and previously jumped in shows to 4’3"). But, most say I am “experienced” since I am capable of riding most broke horses. So it really depends. So, while I may be experienced, I’m not advanced. So there is definitely a difference in classifying a person by experience (years in the saddle and ability to ride a given horse) and level of achievement, such as scoring a 70 at GP. Intermediate seems to be a term that is used in both scales, but I’d say most people are taking about experience rather than competitive ability. I know first level riders that say they are very advanced. I think a bit of it stems from our own desires to be seen as accomplished after years of doing something. In a sales ad, these terms are used to somewhat explain than the horse is either difficult to ride, doesn’t tolerate mistakes, gets tense, or any other issue that the horse might have, so those looking for a bombproof schoolmaster need not inquire.
So that clears this up not at all!
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IME sellers tend to drastically underplay the difficulty of riding the horse in their ad copy, so I wouldn’t look at any ad that says “intermediate rider recommended”, “sensitive”, “forward”, “one-person horse”, or similarly ominous wording. Even if I was an intermediate rider looking for a sensitive, forward horse. Inevitably the “beginner” “push-button” “kicking quiet” horses turn out to be the ones that need an intermediate rider, while the “intermediate rider recommended” horses actually require Xenophon himself to descend from the heavens.
I may just be cynical, though.
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[QUOTE=Miss Woodford;8741590]
IME sellers tend to drastically underplay the difficulty of riding the horse in their ad copy, so I wouldn’t look at any ad that says “intermediate rider recommended”, “sensitive”, “forward”, “one-person horse”, or similarly ominous wording. Even if I was an intermediate rider looking for a sensitive, forward horse. Inevitably the “beginner” “push-button” “kicking quiet” horses turn out to be the ones that need an intermediate rider, while the “intermediate rider recommended” horses actually require Xenophon himself to descend from the heavens.
I may just be cynical, though.[/QUOTE]
Not cynical, practical, and most likely accurate!
I consider myself an intermediate rider - have my silver, and close to my gold, but from riding schoolmasters. I don’t jump, and am a bit of a chicken. I don’t consider myself a trainer of any sort, and certainly don’t want to deal with horses with behavioral issues.
I, too, shy away from any ad that contains the words “sensitive”, “forward”, “needs a confident rider”, or “would be good for a rider in a program”. None of those mean I am safe riding that horse at home alone, which is how I ride 99% of the time.
I think if a seller is saying that a horse needs an intermediate rider, it’s usually indicative of trouble. If they say the horse needs an intermediate rider because he is green but he has a good brain, than I would tend to believe it. But if you have a horse that has been under saddle for a significant period of time, and the seller still says “intermediate rider,” eek.
On a separate, but similar subject, when I see ISO horse adds and the person claims to be an intermediate rider, I assume the worst. I assume they are still in the “unconscious incompetence” stage of learning.
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Imo, if an ad says the horse needs an intermediate rider, that’s pretty broad and is perhaps just to eliminate beginners . Needs a confident rider is a bit different…that means the horse has some issues and needs a rider who can handle them . Which might be okay for some riders and not others. I’d rather an ad be upfront about it…personally.
An intermediate rider in my view is one that does not need a coach or trainer all the time watching and is competent with at least a forward horse and in different situations. I don’t necessarily correlate int, advanced and beginner to show success , but upper level showing typically the riders are skilled and experienced. Some very fine riders don’t show or show sporadically.
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I agree with Countrywood. The term intermediate rider in an advertisement is generally used to avoid using the negative statement “no beginners.”
An intermediate rider can steer, post on the right diagonal, canter on the correct lead, and generally ride a trained horse in the arena (not necessarily outside.) An intermediate rider would not have an independent seat at all times and might rely on her hands for balance occasionally.
So a horse that needs an intermediate rider is one who is generally not schooled enough, or tolerant enough, to cope with a beginner rider.
This is one of those terms that has no possibility of consensus. When learning to ride, one’s perceptions of what is possible continue to evolve. At the very start of the process, some one would consider anyone who can stay on at a canter as “advanced”, and later in the process…when a rider is parsing the minutia of half-halts used in tempi changes, they may humbly consider themselves “intermediate”.
In the world of horse ads, the authors have such a wide range of perception that it’s just hopeless to expect any of it to mean anything. I just ask specific questions, and yes, avoid “code words” like “sensitive”, “needs intermediate rider” for people who have not already proven that they are up to riding more demanding horses.
[QUOTE=Eclectic Horseman;8742074]
I agree with Countrywood. The term intermediate rider in an advertisement is generally used to avoid using the negative statement “no beginners.”[/QUOTE]
As someone that peruses sale ads all the time, I don’t recall ever seeing the phrase ‘needs intermediate rider’. Maybe I missed it, or maybe it’s the type of sale ads I view.
Now, ‘needs confident rider’ I see all the time as well as ‘AA in a program’. According to some sources, confident rider means brave rider. As EH says though, often times these terms are used to avoid inquires from beginners or even the AA that has the money to buy a fancy big moving horse but isn’t able to ride it.
The only way to know is to call on the ads you like and ask specific questions. I tend to go by the numerical temperment score.
okay. So what is an “advanced beginner”?
Contrary to what some were saying above, I guess I have assumed that the term “advanced beginner” is in ads to rule out the people who have no clue/no experience.
But I would have thought that an intermediate rider was someone who had an independent seat and who could do some low-level dressage and potter around a low, non-tricky course (2 feet and under) on an uncomplicated horse.
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[QUOTE=Posting Trot;8742282]
okay. So what is an “advanced beginner”?
Contrary to what some were saying above, I guess I have assumed that the term “advanced beginner” is in ads to rule out the people who have no clue/no experience.
But I would have thought that an intermediate rider was someone who had an independent seat and who could do some low-level dressage and potter around a low, non-tricky course (2 feet and under) on an uncomplicated horse.[/QUOTE]
Again, I think that sellers want to avoid coming right out and saying “no beginners” out of fear that it may be interpreted that the horse is difficult to ride or has behavioral problems. They want to sell the horse, so they don’t want to exclude any possible buyers, but on the other hand, they know that the horse is not suitable for someone who just started taking lessons, for example.
^^^ agree.
I’d not sell my horse to an up-downer, she’s not suitable. She’s more of a performance horse, there is lots of (nice, well behaved) horse under you, but she’s powerful. I’d be more selective of who was getting her, what they intended to do with her, lessons, care, home, etc…and probably would end up not selling her, or putting everybody off. Although every time she goes out people ask my rider if she’s for sale.
Let’s face it, it is like marrying off a daughter, nobody would be entirely suitable.
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I think it is a very broad brush. If I was placing an ad…
Beginner Rider: to me would equal I can almost put anyone (horse) on and they will be safe, walk trot without giving me angina, maybe canter, has basic concept of proper riding (rider) but may not “be there” yet. Horse would need to be able to “take a joke” of imbalance, perhaps hanging on the face etc and still be able to do its job.
Intermediate: Rider can w/t/c (for me do some low jumps possibly). Good balance, decent seat, knows how to use aids, doesn’t hang on their face. Horse may be a little more intolerant of stupid mistakes (how to ask for change, whatever).
My examples- if I was advertising, none are for sale.
- Pony 1: Fancy pony, kids can hang on his mouth and kind of flop around and he will trot along merrily. Beginner kids can get him to go.
- Pony 2: Safest pony ever, but will NOT trot for a beginner, if they hang on his mouth, don’t ask properly, are out of balance, he choses not to participate. Though he is the safest thing I own personality wise, he is not necessarily a beginner rider ride.
- Mare 1: has never done a thing naughty under saddle with me and I bred her and backed her prior to sending her to a pro to finish. I would NOT have advertised her as needing an intermediate until I put a low intermediate girl on her and the horse crow hopped and swung her head around threatening to buck when the kid was leaning to the left and humping the saddle with her seat. She’s easy for me but clearly can not take a joke. I would have sworn ANY PERSON could have climbed on her and she would have been an angel.
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LOL. This question has been on my mind a long time, not just in terms of sales ads!
What counts as intermediate is so flexible, depending on what you are comparing to, looking both above and below you.
On one hand, people I would think of as advanced beginners get called intermediate. These are people that can walk/trot/canter on a reliable horse, but have few problem-solving skills and may not have a 100 per cent independent seat. They might jump low jumps, but it’s not pretty :). But in the context of where they were a year ago, or compared to other kids in the lesson program, they do have reason to be proud of their achievements to date.
On the other hand, what’s the upper limit where you get to call yourself “advanced” or “experienced”? Is this actually a code word for “pro”? Because when I think about the people I would apply “advanced” to, they are all pros (though small time pros — good riders and trainers, just never really made the business work for them). These are people that can ride any horse (but have the smarts to know when to do groundwork rather than jump in the saddle right away :)), and can make a positive change in that horse from the first ride. I will never be at that level, and don’t aspire to it. I’m satisfied to see incremental improvements in my own horse.
On the other hand, within disciplines, the definitions might take on different meanings. If you were a dressage pro who could also jump 2 foot 9 and get a ribbon, that would definitely be seen as a bonus! But if you were in hunter/jumper world, that might be seen as fairly entry-level. On the other hand, you could be a very advanced western rider, and never have done any formal jumping (though you might jump logs on the trail and barrels in an obstacle course quite well).
I was happy describing myself as an intermediate rider until I realized that people assumed that meant advanced beginner, and were pleasantly surprised that I had an independent seat and control over the aids when I came to try out their lease horses. On the other hand, in the context of applying to a high-end open clinic, I felt like “intermediate” might be over-stating things, especially since my progress in jumping is not keeping pace with my flatwork. So I’ve decided not to label myself at all. If I need to, I state my experience in general terms, then let the observer decide what they think of my riding.
In ads, I too think that “intermediate rider” really means “no total beginners,” and that wouldn’t necessarily scare me off. I would stipulate the same for anyone riding my own horse outside of a lesson with my coach. Indeed, “bomb safe beginner horse” would make me suspect that the horse was a bit behind the leg, or slowing down through age. I wouldn’t pay a premium for this quality at my stage, though I’d certainly advise advanced beginners to do so. On the other hand, “AA in a program,” particularly if the horse is already broke and trained, would give me pause. I do ride alone most of the time, with at most weekly lessons. If “program” meant that a trainer would have to ride the horse four days a week to keep it sane and safe, and I would just be getting on in supervised situations, I wouldn’t be interested. Though I know that is probably the only way that many AAs can negotiate having a horse that is hot and talented enough to win, which requires having something that is really a bit too much horse for them (this might be more a hunter/jumper arrangement than a dressage one).
Basically, though, I don’t really believe anything I see in sales ads, between owners’ sales puff and being barn-blind. There are numerous threads on COTH about fairly reputable sales situations where horses turn out to be a few inches short of the magic 17 hands mark (or a few inches over the magic pony mark of under 14.2). If the owners either don’t know, or misrepresent, such a tangible physical fact, how could you trust what they say about riding level? I would always want to see, to try out if that seemed safe, to ask lots of questions, PPE, etc.
I think both Pennywell Bay and Scribbler have got it.
I also think too many people overestimate their abilities, especially if they have been riding good schoolies.
In a sales ad, assuming seller is being honest , it means a horse not suitable for beginner or recreational rider; yet a horse that does not need a pro or to be in full training/show program. A horse that is suitable for a rider with a few years of experience and a reasonable skill level maybe taking lessons / improving. May or may not be a show quality horse or talented, which is another level of ad description .
I think context varies widely. I tend to think of it as general purpose riding horses, not discipline specific, and that Pennywell Bay’s description fits.
In dressage terms, it would have totally different meaning. Intermediate to me would be trained a horse to mid levels, beginner may have only ridden trained horse… but the dressage beginner could be considered advanced in some other realms! When advanced is the person who can train multiple GP horses, you have a much broader swatch fitting in beginner and intermediate. Same with jumping - beginner jumps under 3’, intermediate 3’-4’ courses or lower on greener horses they are teaching, advanced is up to GP type jumping.
subjective broad terms sure are fun aren’t they? Haha - it is really all a matter of perspective, and as netg said - context.
Since the OP brought this up in a sales ad scenario, a lot would depend on the seller of the horse. If this is a experienced, reputable trainer selling say, a 2nd level horse coming 3rd, I would take ‘intermediate’ to mean a fairly accomplished rider, someone who has ridden 3rd level-ish and up with good training.
However, if the seller was more of a back-yard type situation with no show record or reputation, I would automatically assume that ‘Intermediate’ means ‘next step up from beginner’ someone who has an independent seat and can ride a variety of horses with some problem solving skills.
This lol!! Here we have the classic “Not a Novice Ride”. That means it will try to murder you.
To me an intermediate rider is one that can deal with some issues such as a spook or horse being mildly naughty, but isn’t yet equipped to fix training issues or holes, or needs the help of a trainer to do so.
A beginner rider is one that needs a horse that is pretty much bomb proof.
An advanced rider is one that can deal with some training holes or naughty behavior on their own.
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