What to do with disrespectful students?

[kenziecat]

I’ve been teaching kids lessons for a few years, and somehow I’ve always been blessed with angels. Every student has been a good listener, respectful, and willing to please. However, I’ve recently acquired an 8ish year old student who is completely unlike the others. She is very rude, tells me what I should do and how I should teach, and flat out tells me “no” or “you can’t make me” when I ask her to do something. The worst of it all is that she has started to be very disrespectful to the horses as well. She is not allowed to ride anymore until she proves she’s earned the privilege. So my question is - what are some things I can do to help her learn to respect the horses? I’ve never had to deal with this before! I would like her to do farm chores, but at the same time don’t want her to see farm chores as punishment, as it’s something all equestrians get the privilege of doing to care for our horses. If you’ve ever had a student like this, how did you handle it? I don’t want to make the wrong decision and discourage her, but she definitely needs to realize her behavior is unacceptable. I will be speaking to the mother as well, but wanted to have some possible solutions I could suggest. Thank you!

EDIT: While advice on how to handle her attitude towards me is appreciated and welcome, that is something I will be working closely with her parents on. My biggest concern is her lack of respect for my horses. She has said some pretty nasty things, and I’m worried she may act on those things and hurt herself or my horses. That’s why she is not allowed to ride for the time being. I’d like suggestions on how to get her to respect the horses. I realize I may not be able to make her see horses as anything more than entertainment, but I would like to give her a chance and help her out.

[Mukluk]

Sounds like a kid who wants attention and wants to feel important. She wants you to take the bait and spar with her. I would be firm about what is and isn’t OK with regard to safety issues and proper horse care However, it might also be helpful to ask her some questions about her ideas (Why does that seem like a good idea to you? How do you think that would help)?. I wonder what her home life is like.

[Scribbler]

I think you just fire her as a client. Tell mom she can come back in a year if she still wants to ride.

[PonyPenny]

@kenziecat

I’ve been teaching kids lessons for a few years, and somehow I’ve always been blessed with angels. Every student has been a good listener, respectful, and willing to please. However, I’ve recently acquired an 8ish year old student who is completely unlike the others. She is very rude, tells me what I should do and how I should teach, and flat out tells me “no” or “you can’t make me” when I ask her to do something. The worst of it all is that she has started to be very disrespectful to the horses as well. She is not allowed to ride anymore until she proves she’s earned the privilege. So my question is - what are some things I can do to help her learn to respect the horses? I’ve never had to deal with this before! I would like her to do farm chores, but at the same time don’t want her to see farm chores as punishment, as it’s something all equestrians get the privilege of doing to care for our horses. If you’ve ever had a student like this, how did you handle it? I don’t want to make the wrong decision and discourage her, but she definitely needs to realize her behavior is unacceptable. I will be speaking to the mother as well, but wanted to have some possible solutions I could suggest. Thank you!

I would not have this child as a student and I would tell the Mom exactly why.

[Come_Shine]

What has her parent shared with you? Does she have any special needs - ADHD, anxiety, a behaviour disorder? Tough history? Difficult time in her life?

At 8, she would be in school and perhaps asking mom how she’s learns best in school may be a good way to start the conversation about teaching strategies.

Are you working with her one on one?

Rather than looking at it as addressing inappropriate behaviour, think in terms of modeling desired behaviour. She may need a very different approach from other children you have worked with.

If the youngster likes horses and wants to be there I hope you can find a way to make this work for her and you.

​

[shakeytails]

@kenziecat

She is very rude, tells me what I should do and how I should teach, and flat out tells me “no” or “you can’t make me” when I ask her to do something. The worst of it all is that she has started to be very disrespectful to the horses as well.

My answer to that would be “You’re right, I can’t. But I can make you get off that horse.” She would then sit out the rest of the lesson until Mom came to pick her up and not be welcome back until her attitude changed. Period. Riding is a privilege.

Unless you WANT to deal with behavior issues or any type of special needs, you don’t have too. And you don’t have to feel guilty about it. Not your problem. You’re not a public school teacher.

[hosspuller]

Anyone disrespectful of a horse is dangerous… To themselves and to others around them. A horse is ten times larger than a person, ten times as strong, and quick to react. For safety’s sake, You are right to separate her from horses. You might have to separate her from yourself for the same reason.

[S1969]

Is the parent present for any of these lessons?

I’d let the parent know what’s going on. It’s possible that the kid doesn’t even want to take lessons.

I would probably have a conversation with the kid when they are not on the horse. Tell them that you think they are unhappy about riding, and you want to know why. Maybe they are actually afraid? Or maybe they just don’t like riding? I would end this conversation by telling the child that you won’t force them to do things they don’t want, but that will mean not riding until they are ready to be pushed a little bit. If she doesn’t want to ride, this is her “out.” If she’s looking for attention, she won’t get it, so it might make her try a little harder.

My daughter took a fall once and didn’t really want to ride after that. The instructor came to me and told me that while she wasn’t being disrespectful (like in your situation), she could tell that she didn’t want to be there. We took a break from riding and did other things for a while.

[S1969]

Just adding - why do you want her to do farm chores? If you’re looking to punish her, that’s not appropriate. The correct punishment is not giving lessons. Her own parents can make her scrub their floor on her hands and knees if they want, but paid instructors don’t get to deliver punishment to 8 year olds.

[kenziecat]

@S1969

Just adding - why do you want her to do farm chores? If you’re looking to punish her, that’s not appropriate. The correct punishment is not giving lessons. Her own parents can make her scrub their floor on her hands and knees if they want, but paid instructors don’t get to deliver punishment to 8 year olds.

As I said, I don’t want to punish her.
When I was a kid, I saw my trainer make disrespectful kids work instead of ride and it quickly changed the kid’s attitude. The parents agreed with or even suggested that approach. So that’s the method that I’ve seen and has been suggested to me, but I don’t think it will work for this kid. She would see it as punishment, and then it would discourage her. She has determination like no other, and if we could channel that she could be a great rider or trainer someday. I want to help her grow as a rider, horsewoman, and person. Just trying to find the best way to do that.

[S1969]

@kenziecat

As I said, I don’t want to punish her.
When I was a kid, I saw my trainer make disrespectful kids work instead of ride and it quickly changed the kid’s attitude. The parents agreed with or even suggested that approach. So that’s the method that I’ve seen and has been suggested to me, but I don’t think it will work for this kid. She would see it as punishment, and then it would discourage her. She has determination like no other, and if we could channel that she could be a great rider or trainer someday. I want to help her grow as a rider, horsewoman, and person. Just trying to find the best way to do that.

How is it not a punishment? “Disrespectful kids have to shovel sh!t.” That’s pretty much the definition of punishment.

I had one daughter that was as stubborn as the day is long. Punishing her by making her clean stalls wouldn’t have been very useful; AND wouldn’t have ended up with clean stalls, either. So then it creates a new problem…is the goal just hard labor, or actual results, or just keeping kid out of the way? I found this type of punishment to be more of a punishment to myself than to her.

Sounds like it would be far more effective to let her make her choice to ride by your rules, or not to ride. Then it’s all on her. I’d take her aside and give her that choice, then carry on. More likely than not, she’ll choose to ride by your rules.

[kenziecat]

@Come Shine

What has her parent shared with you? Does she have any special needs - ADHD, anxiety, a behaviour disorder? Tough history? Difficult time in her life?

At 8, she would be in school and perhaps asking mom how she’s learns best in school may be a good way to start the conversation about teaching strategies.

Are you working with her one on one?

Rather than looking at it as addressing inappropriate behaviour, think in terms of modeling desired behaviour. She may need a very different approach from other children you have worked with.

If the youngster likes horses and wants to be there I hope you can find a way to make this work for her and you.

​

@Come Shine

What has her parent shared with you? Does she have any special needs - ADHD, anxiety, a behaviour disorder? Tough history? Difficult time in her life?

At 8, she would be in school and perhaps asking mom how she’s learns best in school may be a good way to start the conversation about teaching strategies.

Are you working with her one on one?

Rather than looking at it as addressing inappropriate behaviour, think in terms of modeling desired behaviour. She may need a very different approach from other children you have worked with.

If the youngster likes horses and wants to be there I hope you can find a way to make this work for her and you.

​

Yes, she’s going to need a different approach! The mom has told me she can have an attitude sometimes, but from everything I know she has a great home life. I teach her brother as well (in separate lessons) and he’s a great little kid. I agree with the whole modeling desired behavior thing! It’s just hard because she doesn’t respect me, and therefore doesn’t really care what I say or do. It’s very hard to teach someone when they have that mindset. She wants to ride, but doesn’t want to be taught. I really hope we can make this work, too! I’m just praying we don’t have an episode like last week. She made an absolute terrible threat to one of my horses at the very end of her lesson. That’s what I’m really looking for - is how to get her to respect the horses. I’ll be working with the mom on how to get her to listen to me better, but since these are my horses it is my place to make sure they are not treated poorly. I’d like to come up with a way for her to appreciate horses and not just see them as toys. I will obviously clear any action/new lesson plan with the mom, but if she’s not okay with it then I will have to stop teaching her. But, I want to at least give the kid a chance. Thanks for your input!

[clanter]

I believe you were hired to teach horsemanship and would stay with that job. If this client does not for whatever reason wish to learn, they need to be dismissed

She is very rude, tells me what I should do and how I should teach, and flat out tells me “no” or “you can’t make me” when I ask her to do something. The worst of it all is that she has started to be very disrespectful to the horses as well
.

and she will be a representative to all as student of your program,

[kenziecat]

@S1969

How is it not a punishment? “Disrespectful kids have to shovel sh!t.” That’s pretty much the definition of punishment.

I had one daughter that was as stubborn as the day is long. Punishing her by making her clean stalls wouldn’t have been very useful; AND wouldn’t have ended up with clean stalls, either. So then it creates a new problem…is the goal just hard labor, or actual results, or just keeping kid out of the way? I found this type of punishment to be more of a punishment to myself than to her.

Sounds like it would be far more effective to let her make her choice to ride by your rules, or not to ride. Then it’s all on her. I’d take her aside and give her that choice, then carry on. More likely than not, she’ll choose to ride by your rules.

Thanks for your advice! They didn’t use it as punishment, but rather to make it clear to the child that if they couldn’t follow instruction and be respectful while off of a horse, then they weren’t ready to get back on as it’s extra important to be a good listener while on top of an animal. It wasn’t necessarily shoveling manure, but just grooming, cleaning tack, hand walking horses, etc. instead of the dirty, hard work. They were still receiving instruction.
Agreed - simply put, ride by my rules or don’t ride at all. However, my biggest concern is her lack of respect for the horses. She said some nasty things to the horse she was riding at the end of the last lesson. I simply can’t have kids, or anyone, disrespecting my horses. They don’t deserve it, and it could be dangerous. She seems to view the horses are toys - something she can show up and play with and it doesn’t matter what they think. I realize I may not be able to change her mindset, but I’d like to find a way to help her/give her a chance. If she can’t start respecting the horses soon, she won’t be allowed back. Any thoughts on how to accomplish this?

[S1969]

One other thought on this thread. My girls had a few different riding instructors, most of whom were in their early 20s and didn’t have children yet. So they sort of bridged the gap between “peer” and “teacher” and most of the time, this was fine.

But sometimes they seemed to have difficulty setting boundaries - one would engage in sort of sassy banter with the kids in the lessons, and I recall once my daughter giving a similar sassy response back to the instructor and she went ballistic. I agreed that the response was inappropriate (it was nothing bad, as I recall, just the tone was flippant)…but I thought that the instructor sort of led her into a situation where she thought it was ok, and then got slammed.

Another instructor had some students to whom she was more like their hang-out buddy, and when in lessons she had a hard time getting some of them to work. I could see kids in that situation telling the instructor “no, and you can’t make me” if asked to do something difficult or tiring (no stirrup work, for example.)

So, in addition to other thoughts - examine your own behavior with your lesson students and see if you could be contributing to the issue, unintentionally.

When my girls started riding with a 70 year old battle axe - these issues NEVER occurred. LOL. There was no fooling around in lessons, period. (Different issues there, but this was never one of them.)

[pluvinel]

@kenziecat

…It’s just hard because she doesn’t respect me, and therefore doesn’t really care what I say or do. It’s very hard to teach someone when they have that mindset. She wants to ride, but doesn’t want to be taught. …

She made an absolute terrible threat to one of my horses at the very end of her lesson. That’s what I’m really looking for - is how to get her to respect the horses. …

@clanter

I believe you were hired to teach horsemanship and would stay with that job…

Horses are large, potentially dangerous livestock. There are well known handling/riding procedures to deal with a large animal that have been developed over years…that are to be adhered to to be safe.

Horsemanship is a skill that allows a human to get a flight animal to do its bidding…and that can be directly translated to dealing with other (perhaps difficult) humans.

Besides, it is NEVER the horse’s fault…so anger at the horse is never appropriate.

Take the high road. Safety for self and respect for the horse. She follows the rules, or she’s out. Actions have consequences.

[Luseride]

I have had a few of these types of students. The worst thing for them is if they did not follow instructions was they had to get off the horse and stand in the middle of the ring until they decided they could follow directions. I always explained that first and foremost it was a safety issue and made sure the parent knew that.

One girl did that twice and never came back, good riddance. Another finally turned the corner and has started to become a good student. She will never be a good rider but she is not hurting the horse and is being safe. That one had a fall prove to her I knew what I was doing and she should listen.

Watch how the girl interacts with her parent, that tells you a lot. In addition to lessons I teach middle school and you can find out a lot by watching the dynamics among the family.

[Glyphica]

First off, I teach several kids with learning disorders such as the ones mentioned above. tThey do not equate to outright rudeness. The kids may struggle to listen and follow directions, but none of mine have ever flat out challenged me, and they ALL treat the horses well. I just wanted to put that out there as I think some instructors are afraid to teach kids with these issues, and that’s a real shame.

With a kid this rude, I doubt talking to mom will make much of a difference. I’m sure she’s getting away with murder at home too. I also don’t like the idea of using barn chores as a punishment because ALL of your students should be doing them on occasion because that’s part of good horsemanship. I think the idea to pull her off and make her sit out lessons is your best bet. If that doesn’t fix her quick, I’d tell her parents not to bring her back.

Disrespectful of the horses? Threatening the horses? What on earth makes you think this kid will make a good trainer?.. I think you may need to get rid of this kid. I take on a lot of the “difficult” students in my area (mostly because I have training in how to deal with learning disabilities), but I’d never keep a kid around who is mean to the horses. My schoolies work hard and don’t deserve to put up with that.

[Come_Shine]

Perhaps Google ‘teaching students with Oppositional Defiant Disorder’ or ‘ADHD’ or ‘FASD’. Not saying she has any of those disorders but there are great strategies developed to assist with compliance that you may find helpful. Such the picture schedules, “if-then” and “when-then” statements, etc.

It’s wonderful you are open to attempting to figure something out, but, if her behaviour issues are beyond the scope of your program, your horses come first.

As someone who works with kids with challenges, documenting things she had difficulty with may be helpful to the youngster if the parent ever needs to seek professional intervention.

Good luck.

[js]

Is this in a private lesson or group lesson? If group, then remember this kid is making the lesson for the other’s disruptive. I would take her out of any group lesson and put her into individual lessons and you can deal one on one with her. As far as her attitude, technically not your job to be a social worker; however, you might try ignoring it and continuing on, give her instruction, if she says no, have her come in and dismount for a minute (sort of time out if you will) make it clear there is not talking by her during a lesson, if she doesn’t comply then stop the lesson.

On a side note, maybe the kid needs something different in her riding lesson, switching disciplines, doing something to keep her mind focused on what’s going on rather than being disruptive. If she is just doing flat work she may be bored and then gets disruptive.

If the Mom is saying she can have an attitude then that is something they as parents need to address, sounds like they have allowed the behavior and now it is a problem.