What type of backs do CWDs fit?

[fivestrideline]

This is sort of a spin off of another thread bemoaning the murky world of saddle fitting. So, let’s say I’m looking at horses and taking saddles into account - what shape am I looking at to hedge my bets towards getting a CWD or similar low profile French saddle to fit? Assume I have found that CWD specifically fits ME far better than anything else, and additionally I am built in a way that the super wide/hoop saddles are genuinely uncomfortable. I’m sure I’ll buy a massive, flat backed couch that’s impossible to fit, but one can try

I’m aware that there are people out there that hate all French, short point, and foam saddles, but I am not one of them. Ballpark measurements of weight bearing area are already a part of my trial rides (I’m tall and have a horse with 16” of weight bearing surface, I’m trying to avoid doing that combination again if possible), so I figured why not look at overall shape as well?

Anyway, those of you with CWD or other French saddles, I’d love to hear the general shape and build of the horses that they fit! Bonus points for fit verified by independent fitters. One can dream of buying a horse that does the job they want and fits in a saddle they like

[HipNo34]

Saw the thread title, jumped up and ran for my notebook

raises hand mais oui on the other French saddles (and similar).

Thankyouthankyouthankyou.

[Bristol_Bay]

I have a CWD Mademoiselle with pro panels that fits this guy with a Winderen pad. I use the thinnest of the shims in the middle pockets to correct for very slight bridging.

[Tha_Ridge]

While I do not ride in one, I ride in a barn that is sponsored by CWD and almost every horse goes in one. I’m in an area with a very good rep and a trainer who is extremely vigilant about saddle fit. I get sick of this idea that the many high-level trainers out there sponsored by French saddle brands just do so for a freebie or handout, not that they genuinely believe they’re doing the right thing for their horses.

[spurofthemoment]

I cannot answer your question but I can say that short tree points and foam are appropriate for some horses, and it doesn’t do a ton of good for learning about saddle fit to see all the bashing. I am sad that it doesn’t look like my medium-to-high withered boy (candidate for long tree points) is one of those horses, because I do love the look and the feel of the French saddles.

I’ve also heard this: CWD either fits the rider like a glove or not at all. I’m hoping your CWD saddle works out!! Compromising rider fit in an attempt to benefit the horse does not benefit the horse in the long run.

[outside_leg]

My jumper goes well in a CWD Mademoiselle with pro panels, no modifications, and a Mattes pad with one shim in the front. I’ve had the fit looked at by his fitter/chiropractor and not just the CWD rep. She calls him a more traditional warmblood build, with a flatter back, broad shoulder and chest, and not an overly high wither.

I’ve had a problem finding CWDs to fit horses with very prominent withers and those that are overly broad (think overgrown ponies). We tried a variety of saddles on each. The high withered horse ended up in an Antares and the 18.1 overgrown pony ended up in a wide tree Voltaire.

My personal experience with these brands is that I think people go overboard with customizing the panels. If the shape of the tree doesn’t work, no amount of foam added or removed is going to fix that fundamental issue. I personally look for saddles with pro panels that haven’t been modified, and see if the basic shape works. If there’s a minor adjustment to be made, I’d rather do it with a felt shim in a sheepskin half pad. It’s easier to change than trying to send a saddle down to Florida to be repaneled or adjusted.

Picture of my boy who fits the CWD:

[kenyarider]

It fits this kind of back. Hope that helps.

[spurofthemoment]

THIS and @outside_leg’s post are exactly what we need - “this kind of back typically fits these brands and these models.”

Amerigo’s website does it, but how awesome would an infographic including the most popular brands/models be?! Anyone have any original photographs + knowledge we can use to make it?

[fivestrideline]

@outside_leg

If the shape of the tree doesn’t work, no amount of foam added or removed is going to fix that fundamental issue. I personally look for saddles with pro panels that haven’t been modified, and see if the basic shape works. If there’s a minor adjustment to be made, I’d rather do it with a felt shim in a sheepskin half pad. It’s easier to change than trying to send a saddle down to Florida to be repaneled or adjusted.

This x100. I also love the IDEA of wool (adjustable, potentially softer, has some heat management properties), but I’ve lived places where maintaining a wool flock would’ve been next to impossible. Foam + intelligently applied shims can be a great solution for a LOT of people, provided the horse approves.

The experience I had with one independent fitter who actually had a trunk full of bare trees from a few brands was FABULOUS. Seeing the bare tree on my horse really helped confirm that the saddle was a fit - obviously girthing and riding in a saddle makes a huge difference but I liked the bare tree starting point. This is something I’ve not encountered from a brand rep - in part due to reps being salespeople rather than fitters, and in part due to some of the brands only having one or two trees and depending on panels to hopefully get it to fit “anything”.

[fivestrideline]

Also, it would appear that the general consensus for CWD is that old style WB shape - no huge wither or extreme width.

[LazyA1]

I have tried to educate myself. These are just my thoughts, I’m not a fitter. I go for these saddle parameters as primary:

1. Flat vs curvey down the length of the back

2. Width of channel

3. Angle of tree points, this is the most difficult to get right I think… look underneath the flap from the front. Are they jabbing in? Pointing forward? I have one that needed a surprisingly wide saddle so that the angle of the points was open enough (AO2), but then also a half pad to make sure of wither clearance. He has a decent wither, but has a wide back just behind them. I have another with a very high wither and the points jut way forward unless I add in rear riser shims in a half pad.

4. And of course, wither clearance. But see #3, just because your pommel is up off the withers does NOT mean your saddle fits. Those tree points have to be the right angle and not jabbing down or foward at the bottom. But not angled out either, or they will be jabbing up higher. Probably the reason for the short point hate, this is hard to get right. The tree point angle should match the horse.

As far as your horse’s back, is he:

1. flat or curvey

2. Sprung in the ribs

3. Height of withers

And the factor, no one seems to talk about. How much do you weigh, and how much is your weight and the way you ride going to affect saddle fit. If you need a big seat size is it going to be too long for your horse’s back? I like to visualize a good riding bareback Native American in an old western movie. Their weight is in a natural place. Well, I suppose not “natural” because horses aren’t naturally ridden, but you know what I mean. The very back and front of the saddle tree are for balance of the tree, not to bear a lot of weight.

I have a hoard of half pads and shims. My go-tos are shimmable thinlines. I also have an ancient synthetic fleece half pad cover that has velco opening down the spine. I can put whatever I want to in it. For example, it now contains a gel half pad with a rear riser and a front that I took the scissors to for shoulder room. I genrally agree with the person who said to get plain panels and use shims.

Finally, do you know how to let your horse tell you? Mine feel very flat and short in front when they do not like their saddle fit. One had a lead swap issue.

Finally, I highly recommend Goldfinch Tack, a re-seller. She will work with you off pictures.

I like French saddles. They’re beautiful. Personally, I’m not a CWD fan. I’ve had good luck with Antares. I’d love to try some of the new ones, such as Equipe or Eurroplus (??) but the used inventory is low for these.

[outside_leg]

@fivestrideline

Also, it would appear that the general consensus for CWD is that old style WB shape - no huge wither or extreme width.

That was the assessment from my fitter/chiro as well

[Scribbler]

FWIW my Paint has a good English back, high withers, big shoulders, a broad back, and a bit of a front/back curve, and a big barrel. I have tracings from my saddle fitter. I took them to a very experienced regional traveling consignment seller of high end foam French jumping saddles. We popped the tracings into multiple saddles and seller said maresy was unlikely to fit in anything, except maybe one model of a new semicustom Equipe (I think?).

Passier and County both work for us.

[HipNo34]

@LazyA1

Probably the reason for the short point hate, this is hard to get right. The tree point angle should match the horse.

Makes absolute sense.

I was reading articles on a website the other night (a Passier seller), but they basically wrote that high withers = long tree points is an oversimplification and, “the tree points must be 'as short as possible and as long as necessary.’”

The lightbulb may not be that bright but it’s still going off.

[fivestrideline]

@Scribbler

my Paint has a good English back, high withers, big shoulders, a broad back, and a bit of a front/back curve, and a big barrel.

With the exception of the withers, this is my TB. He fits very well in a Tad Coffin and a County. The problem has been just how WIDE he is, needing a wider gullet/space between tree points vs a greater angle.

[Belmont]

Yes! I’d 100% agree with this statement. Especially if your current saddle has ST or some sort of mildly modified Pro Panel. As someone mentioned above, they start wreaking havoc when people start messing with the panel modifications too much. I couldn’t tell you the amount weird configurations of panels I’ve pulled off horses with very simple backs.

[PNWjumper]

Will disagree with the comment that CWDs may not work on huge withers.

I rode my OTTB in the FEI prixes for many many years in a variety of County saddles. I was convinced they were the only saddles that could fit his very stereotypical, very massive and prominent withers (that then went into a pretty wide, flat back).

After retiring him from the big ring, I got a CWD 2g saddle that I loved more than life itself. When I finally, grudgingly put it on him (I rode all of my mares in it, but always assumed it wouldn’t fit him), it was a saddle miracle. I’m only sad that I didn’t figure out how well a CWD could fit him many years earlier.

Since that saddle died (which is a whole other rant around CWD), I have had several mademoiselles, and several of those have fit him very very well also. There’s something about the shape of the pommel that keeps the saddle off of his getting-more-prominent-by-the-year withers. Not all of them have worked, but the ones that do work very very well for him.

As for the rest of my herd - they’re all pretty average warmblood backs (mostly relatively flat and well muscled with well-defined withers, but nothing extreme).

I fought the CWD machine for years, and still have huge problems with the way they price their saddles. But regardless of how I feel about the company, they do fit my horses very very well. And maybe more importantly fit me better than most other saddle brands I’ve tried.

[fivestrideline]

Well in case anyone wonders, I bought a horse sight unseen with barely any good conformation photos so

But the study in “types” is very interesting! That said, if anyone has fitter suggestions in middle NC, let me know 🫣

[LazyA1]

Interesting…one of mine is high withered. I texted my fitter some pics to ask where to start with used saddles. She texted me saying that looking at the roundness of his rib cage, it might be good to start with a 2g CWD.

[Rel6]

My CWD (which I also adored) had plenty of wither clearance with my big-withered WB. Ultimately it didn’t fit the shape of his back and I ended up with a used Antares that was a better shape for him, but I also would not have hesitated to look for another CWD for a horse with big withers.