What would you do with this horse? UPDATE page 50

[Chestnut_Mare1]

I’m sorry if this is going to come across the wrong way… it sounds like you are saying that you will not try a different farrier/barefoot trimmer because your barn owner/trainer will not allow another farrier/trimmer to work at her/his barn.

Let me just say that I have experienced this at a barn and it sucks. Not only did my mare not need shoes at all, but when I was pressured by the barn owner to shoe her she went downhill fast. It took 2 years to bring her back from the damage that farrier did. Now we are competing happily and successfully barefoot in lower level dressage.

Your situation is different because you have a diagnosis, but you also said your horse was better without shoes.

You are your horse’s advocate. You must make the best decision for him, not the barn owner, trainer or farrier… YOU

It sounds like perhaps a different barn that allow owners to make their own horse care decisions is on order… ASAP

[RubyTuesday]

@fordtraktor

I have fought the navicular battle a few times and honestly? next time when it gets to a point where good farrier work isn’t helping, I’m seriously considering a neurectomy. I know that is unpopular for good reason, but if you can get a few more useful years out of the horse, and you otherwise like the horse, why not try it before euthanizing. It isn’t expensive. First I think you need to do some work on the feet as described above.

FWIW a vet for the USET told me that while it isn’t his first recommendation – there are an AWFUL lot of top level sport horses out there that can’t feel their feet. No one talks about it, but it is a procedure used way more often than anyone wants to admit, with quite a bit of success.

I wish I had known this myself. I had a really, REALLY nice horse that I didn’t try this on, and years later I now regret not at least giving it a try. He was everything I wanted in a horse too, except for that problem. I am sure that years ago, they were talking about it even less than they are now though.

[RubyTuesday]

@Kyrabee

This. I wouldn’t board where I was limited to farriers or vets. My horse…I get the help I want and need for my horse’s condition. He is not rideable right now…move him and get him the help he needs. Current farrier is not doing the job.

Susan

^^This. Your BO does not have your horse’s best interests in mind but rather, her own. She’s got this guy on her payroll and it is hurting YOUR horse.

[BoyleHeightsKid]

@summerfield

I HATE conflict, and I LOVE the BO’s instruction. I don’t want to cause friction, but it’s the utmost of frustration when you’ve tried traditional treatments, they didn’t work, and you are swimming against the grain in alternative-land. People think you are crazy when you are just trying to fix things. The horse is landing toe-first in shoes (I did some slo-mo), so it’s no surprise he’s tripping, and I’m just not interested in pouring more money to fix him.

I would not at all be surprised if it were the shoes that were making him heel sore. Maybe pull the shoes and just let his heels cool out a bit. Then video him again and see if he improves. If he needs a little extra protection without shoes you can always get him some boots.

I went through a situation similar to this at my old barn although she didn’t limit who you were allowed to use as a farrier. The farrier she used shod my boy similar to some of the pictures you have posted and when I see them I cringe. My horse was not lame at the time but if I kept on the same course we were on he would have been, but he was constantly pulling shoes. She also thought I was crazy and would laugh at some of the stuff I would tell her that I read online. I knew things weren’t right and tried to get the farrier to start backing his toes up and bringing his heels back. He also had him in shoes that were 2 sizes too small. I finally started hauling him to a farrier that started getting him straightened out, but then lost my ride. Went through another farrier to finally find the one I have now and I hope he never retires or dies while I have horses. He’s wonderful and is one of the few in our area that understands proper hoof balance and function.

If you PTS and get another horse and stay at this barn with the same farrier, you may very well run into the same problems again.

I would have a serious talk with BO and tell her this farrier is not working for this horse and you need a specialist. If she can’t work with you on that… I would move barns.

I know where you are right now girl… I was there and I’m glad I followed my gut and didn’t listen to the “experts”. My boy is sound and happy now at the age of 20.

[findeight]

Well, you either move barns so you can use a better farrier or go ahead and put the horse to sleep. The donate to a vet school gets mentioned often as an easy out on here. In real life, it almost never happens. Certainly not with very, very common conditions like navicular…and the vet schools put them down anyway for dissection.

PTS would not be the worst thing for him but I wonder if you will regret your motives later in your life if it really is because you like this trainers lessons as you have shared as the primary reason you don’t want to move. If he’s in constant pain with no possible treatments, it’s a good reason, if you like the trainer and trainer forbids another farrier, not so good. But I’m sure she’ll have a horse to sell you when you get rid of this one. Hope the new one doesn’t need any specialty farrier or vet work.

Think ahead here.

[hoopoe]

I would get a follow up imaging exam xray +/- MRI and compare.

Has the condition progressed, is there a new finding. ?

even with your lameness specialist etc, I might send the imagines to vet school radiology department and get a second opinion

I personally would want this information for my horse before making decisions, some of them potentially terminal

it sounds like you have a good vet support, they should be willing to follow up and agree to second opinion with a radiologist ( though that might have already been done?)

[summerfield]

@findeight

Well, you either move barns so you can use a better farrier or go ahead and put the horse to sleep. The donate to a vet school gets mentioned often as an easy out on here. In real life, it almost never happens. Certainly not with very, very common conditions like navicular…and the vet schools put them down anyway for dissection.

PTS would not be the worst thing for him but I wonder if you will regret your motives later in your life if it really is because you like this trainers lessons as you have shared as the primary reason you don’t want to move. If he’s in constant pain with no possible treatments, it’s a good reason, if you like the trainer and trainer forbids another farrier, not so good. But I’m sure she’ll have a horse to sell you when you get rid of this one. Hope the new one doesn’t need any specialty farrier or vet work.

Think ahead here.

Yes, I am currently planning on moving barns. I’m in a tough area, as good dressage instruction in my area is…limited. Unless I want to pay $1000 or more for board, which I’m not really keen on doing for a horse with questionable soundness. That’s why I Iike this trainer, because the instruction is correct but without crazy board. (And this is not the type of barn where they’d try to sell me a horse. Not an A barn type of program at all). And of many barns I’ve taken lessons and and the few I’ve boarded at, I’d say that underrun heels are a common malady in this area. I’m not planning to ditch my horse and buy another one to put at the same barn, as has been suggested. There’s just limited resources unless you are wealthy, so…I need to research my move carefully.

So I am looking at backyard barns, western barns, and gaited horse barns, because that’s all I have in my price range for now. I figure if I can get him sound consistently, we can go to a dressage barn later.

hoopoe, we are redoing X-rays next week. He was MRI’ed in August and x-rayed a year ago, so comparisons can be made. And the results will help me justify leaving, hopefully, in a peaceful way. To “semi-retire” more horse.

[findeight]

Should think anything would be better for this horse then a barn that forbids any outside farrier, even a specialist. That’s better for you in the future too, regardless of what Horse you own.

I kept in several A show barns and clients could call in a health care provider of my choice at all of them. Few were ever used as the regular providers were top notch and if you called somebody else, you scheduled and held. None of the regular providers would be offended about another choice. I never called in anybody else, never needed to. A few people did for specific issues.

IMO, if there are a lot of under run heels in your area, there a lot of iffy farriers serving your area.

Also, if a barn is below market price for what seems similar services? There’s a reason and it’s never good. Kickbacks come to mind as does over promising and under delivery of services you think you are getting.

I kept a Western horse in an ASB show stable for years. They fed better then anybody else, had terrific vet and farrier and footing was a fine art, not an after thought. They just asked us to stay away during their training times, that was mornings until around 11 and a couple of weekday late afternoons when their owners came out to ride. No problem, common sense says you don’t want to share the ring with a peacock of a show horse noisily strutting its stuff. We coexisted quite well.

[kiwichick]

I cant remember if you said you had a trailer or not, another option is to take the horse to another farrier, then you get the best of both worlds.
Also if you just speak to the barn owner and explain that you absolutely insist on another farrier loooking at the horse, and if that is not something that can be worked out then you will need to leave. You pay for a service with barns, they house your horse, I cant imagine any BO drawing the line at someone absolutely insisting they need a specialist farrier, especially with veterinary support. Mad she might think you are, but she doesnt own you or the horse!
I know its not encouraged at a lot of places for everyone to source their own ‘professionals’ as this leads to loads of uncontrolled people accessing the barns, and some are less desirable than everyone wants, but your case has full merits!

[summerfield]

Hi all,
Just thought I’d update. The vet came out to do X rays. Interestingly, there was no real change from one year ago.These were the vet’s notes: Jogs with bilateral lameness in front. Hoof testers negative. Radiographs show increased vascular channels, bone loss at the lateral aspect of the impar ligament attachment site and enthesiopathy is noted on off the lateral wing of each navicular bone. The flexor surface of each navicular ligament is within normal limits.

Vet recommendation was heart bars and bursa injections. Farrier put on shoes today. I’m seeing it as a “I need to know if this will work,” but I know it won’t. I’m looking for a barn, but my area is mucho dinero, so it will take a few weeks. Both vet and farrier acknowledged the cost of these shoes.

I’m looking for a backyard place to give barefoot rehab one last go. I’ve pretty much given up at this point. It’s no fun watching others ride when your horse is lame. Vet said he was a good neurectomy candidate, but doesn’t like the procedure.

Curious, what do you think of these expensive gadgets?

https://photos.app.goo.gl/86qJpCzcFgmY1bEE8
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[Jungle_Monkey]

I rescued a 6 year old QH who ended up having navicular. X-rays were not really bad but we figured he must have inflammation in/up the bursa because he was pretty lame.
I tried the recommended pharmaceuticals and tried pretty much EVERY shoe you could imagine to no avail, half shoe flip flop, egg bars, straight bars, custom made shoes and pads, normal shoes, etc etc and the farrier finally threw his arms up and said can we try him bare foot. He was the most comfortable that way. I ended up getting him pasture sound with 1% oral gallium nitrate and bare foot. He’s 22 this year and happy as a clam.

[BoyleHeightsKid]

@summerfield if the new package is being applied by the same farrier you’re not going to get anywhere. Good luck to you and your horse. I hope you can find a nice backyard situation where you are able to get someone out there that can help him.

Also educate yourself on proper hoof balance. Gene Ovnicek has a lot of good videos on YouTube www.barefoothorse.com is also another great site with lots of good information.

[BeckyS]

You will still have issues. The base of the heel is pushed far forward and will give him further heel pain.

Have to ask: have you considered starting him out on the barefoot path by trimming yourself? A couple key changes could get you a much better horse…and you wouldn’t reeeealllly be bringing in a new farrier.

It isn’t a popular option, but it worked for me since being surrounded by cruddy “stand him up on his heels” farriers.

[summerfield]

@Jungle Monkey

. He was the most comfortable that way. I ended up getting him pasture sound with 1% oral gallium nitrate and bare foot. He’s 22 this year and happy as a clam.

Thanks for the positive experience! Were you able to tell if the gallium nitrate did anything? (apart from the barefoot).

[summerfield]

@BoyleHeightsKid and @BeckyS

Thanks for the replies. I HAVE thought about learning to trim him myself (that’s what my husband thinks I should do), but I don’t think that would endear me to the BO if I was doing his feet myself.

Thankfully, I found a barn nearby and will be moving him in a month. I’ve spent about $10k on vet bills over the last 18 months, and I can’t be impractical anymore- I need to be responsible about my own savings, too. So corrective shoeing and injections will be off the table (especially because I could pay for his retirement with those costs!) The new barn is a low-key western place, but it has an indoor arena, so I can give him a solid year of work barefoot. Next summer I will either retire him or euthanize him if he is not sound.

I just feel relieved that I’ve made a decision and I don’t have to torture myself anymore by going to groom my lame horse while other people are dressaging. I’ve done that a lot this past year and a half. No more of that.

[BoyleHeightsKid]

@summerfield

@BoyleHeightsKid and @BeckyS
I just feel relieved that I’ve made a decision and I don’t have to torture myself anymore by going to groom my lame horse while other people are dressaging. I’ve done that a lot this past year and a half. No more of that.

I know how that feels and it’s a bummer… You feel bad for your horse and want to help him and it’s so frustrating when nothing works. Not to mention all the money that’s flying out the window.

Good luck and keep us updated. He wouldn’t be the first one I’ve heard of going sound after pulling shoes and going barefoot with a good balanced trim.

[Jungle_Monkey]

The gallium nitrate was the thing that kept him alive honestly. He was lame enough back at the beginning that I wouldn’t have been comfortable keeping him even as a pasture pet. The gallium nitrate was my “holy s**t hope this works” hail mary etc. It took about three months before I noticed an improvement and I had to play around with the dosing that worked best for him. Back then they recommended two weeks on two weeks off and the two weeks off was too long.

I haven’t had to give him any for years now and just give him some previcox when the ground gets really hard and he gets Omega Alpha Antiflam every day.

His x-rays are pretty much the same as they were when he was diagnosed at 6 and I did some periodic blood work just to make sure he was ok.

Please no negative comments about it…it worked for him and I’m happy to have the cute little monkey around.

[ChocoMare]

Give him the time to get his feet back. I am a part-time trimmer to support my horses and I’ve rehabbed a few “navicular” diagnosed horses after shoe pull. All are sound.

A. Address the diet. Make sure it’s as low in starch (NSC) as possible… like 12% or less, preferably less. No sugar please.

B. Movement. This guy has got to move, move, move. It’s critical to the rehab. Let him be out as close to 24/7 as humanly possible. Best is movement on varied terrain As Tolerated.

C. Exercise. If he cannot get enough movement, you have to supplement. Since you said he’s thin soled, get him good fitting boots and go for long walks on terrain he tolerates. The boots will keep him comfy and want to move.

D. Trim. Every four weeks to the day. Ten bucks says there’s impacted bar and I can tell from the photos that those heels have to come down slowly. Trimming on that regular schedule keeps the trimmer on top of the pathology. You may even find that after the first trim or two, your trimmer may need to tweak trim every two weeks for a period.

Bottom Line: You have nothing to lose. You’ve tried what doesn’t work. No more band-aiding the problem. Get to the root and let him heal.

ETA: If you’re near Georgia, give me a call