What would you do?

[chocolate_chip_in]

Your TRAINER doesn’t want to get on this horse? I’ve been following along with this thread, and this is a huge red flag. Get this animal in a program with someone who can handle him, whether that’s with a plan to reevaluate whether he’s the right horse for you in a couple of months, or a tune-up before he goes straight on the market. You don’t have to decide right this second whether you want to sell him, but I do think you need to get him in a new situation as soon as possible.

You’ve gotten a lot of really good advice. I’ll just add, I’ve had two bad falls. The second one–I’d been scared of my high school horse for years. I didn’t want to ride him anymore, because I knew on some level that he was more than I could handle. But, for a variety of reasons, I kept riding him anyway. And I loved him. He was the sweetest horse on the ground; he followed me around the farm like a dog. He was my emotional support through some really hard times in my life. I wish I’d known then what I know now about pain behavior, and I wish I’d been in a situation where I could have advocated for him and for myself better. But none of that stopped me from ending up in the ER after he bolted with me. Again. And that time, I couldn’t stick it. I got a really bad concussion and I’m lucky to not have been hurt worse than I was.

I’m so sorry this is happening. Horses are just freaking hard. It’s dangerous enough with a horse you know you can trust.

[sascha]

@sascha

I earned myself a reputation as “a little too tough”

I should have added this when I originally wrote this. To a one, horses that have spent months or years with me (and whose owners are on board with the program lol) are described as lovely, sweet, kind, loving, communicative, gentle, etc.

I just wanted to be sure it was understood that being what some might describe as “a little too tough” would be described by horses as fair and clear.

[pluvinel]

@sascha

I should have added this when I originally wrote this. To a one, horses that have spent months or years with me (and whose owners are on board with the program lol) are described as lovely, sweet, kind, loving, communicative, gentle, etc.

I just wanted to be sure it was understood that being what some might describe as “a little too tough” would be described by horses as fair and clear.

This bears repeating. Some riders I know seems to have an aversion to being “assertive” with their horses. If that horse is opinionated, and perhaps full of themselves…THAT is a bad horse/rider match. These riders need the proverbial, “go along, get along” horse.

A confident, opinionated horse needs a confident, opinionated rider. Some of these horses are also kind and willing to take a clueless rider.

Other horses…who are still wonderful horses…have the attitude of “You are clueless and you cannot ride me until you figure it out.” I had this horse. He taught me everything I know…but it took regularly getting bucked off before I finally understood how to ride him.

But I had to step up to the challenge, improve my horsemanship and re-learn to ride a hot sensitive horse.

[Simkie]

@OverandOnward

Deciding to do less than we are capable of doing is not a failure. Not a chicken move. It’s a decision that makes us happier, more comfortable, more settled in our choices. For those who get no pleasure (or no longer do) out of riskier activities, that’s what life is about.

SO well said. Love it.

I’d like to add that this totally applies to the horse too and it’s OKAY to end a ride or a session having had only positive things happen. I’ve known a lot of people who think it’s necessary to push a horse into resisting in some way so they can “address” that resistance and “win.”

You don’t have to do that. A day where the horse is answering every question right is okay. You’re totally allowed to not ask the questions you’re not sure they can answer correctly. You don’t have to work the horse into resistance in order to be moving forward.

[endlessclimb]

I think it was Boyd Martin who recently said that if you’re not pushing a little every 3rd ride, you aren’t making progress.

Guess what?

That leaves two rides of just doing “whatever”. And sometimes the progress isn’t even visual - you’re doing something the horse tolerates but does not enjoy. Ride 1 it takes 10 minutes for him to finally take a full breath. Ride 2 it takes 8 minutes. Oh look, progress!! To a non-observer, it looks like the exact same ride, but you owe the outside world nothing.

[OverandOnward]

i’ve had a couple of good fortune chances to be in a barn where a very good professional trainer was also in residence.

I was impressed by how much time each of those trainers spent just reinforcing what the horse already knows. Not asking for anything new. Not trying to be spectacular. Maybe even boring.

It helped make a horse who was solid and confident in what it did know. Who performed consistently, because it had experienced consistency.

Riding is a risk sport. We all have to keep that in mind every time we are around horses.

It is OK to manage, mitigate, and decrease that risk, by not opting for a hero ride on every outing – even hero’ing rarely. It can make for a better horse and and a better rider, solid in what they know.

[NaturallyHappy]

OP, you mentioned above you exchanged the first horse you bought for this one. Your trainer knows the person these horses have come from??? Have you considered asking for the purchase price back and sending this horse back, too? I don’t believe I’d buy another one from this person. And I don’t think your trainer has your best interest front and center.

[Simkie]

@OverandOnward

It is OK to manage, mitigate, and decrease that risk, by not opting for a hero ride on every outing – even hero’ing rarely. It can make for a better horse and and a better rider, solid in what they know.

I’ve spent the summer pretty much avoiding heroing all together and goddamn if I haven’t gotten so much further than I expected with this horse. He’s so much more content, braver, and grounded than I (or really anyone) ever thought he could be. And I’ve had so much more FUN with it. It’s been such a blast.

Let’s normalize not heroing, hooray! Not heroing doesn’t mean you’re not moving forward. Small steps forward are still forward, and those small steps add up into big gains.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

I don’t think it’s necessarily a poor reflection on the trainer that she won’t get on the horse–just because the trainer has a sense of risk preservation doesn’t mean the trainer is poor. How many trainers on this board have gotten hurt on client horses? The trainer needs to have an eye on her career and health.

But if the trainer won’t, even after the horse comes back, that doesn’t necessarily speak well of the horse’s ability to thrive in the trainer’s program, to put it mildly, unless the trainer will be willing to ride the horse after the “reboot.”

Totally agree with all the sentiments about not always “pushing” things on a bad day. Admittedly, I’m a weenie, but I’ve always been surprised at barns who will take a horse out for a first ride on a windy day, right before a storm (or when the lawn guys are going at the weeds, etcetera). Setting yourself up for success is important, and also you don’t want the horse to get a bad association with the environment (or learn new tricks).

I think the extra training will be good for the horse regardless of what the OP decides and none of us can know 100% if this was truly the horse’s worst day and a perfect storm of too many stressors or who he is–I admit I have reservations because of the descriptions of him playing tricks when cantering even before the incident.

Keep us posted, OP!

[pluvinel]

@Impractical_Horsewoman

I don’t think it’s necessarily a poor reflection on the trainer that she won’t get on the horse–just because the trainer has a sense of risk preservation doesn’t mean the trainer is poor.

I actually think it IS a reflection on the trainer…eg., it says that the trainer has a limited toolbox.

@Impractical_Horsewoman

How many trainers on this board have gotten hurt on client horses?

They are horses. Any time you mount on a horse, you are risking your health. I understand “older trainers” limiting their getting on unknown horses with issues, but if this is a student’s horse, a trainer needs to know enough for how to address the horse’s issues in order to help their human student…not to outsource solving the horse problem…because if the trainer is not clued to what triggers the horse, the misbehavior will return.

I realize that working with a horse with a “known” rearing problem is an additional hazard, but I am also of the philosophy that horses don’t rear out of the blue. There is something else going on. Either it is physical (pain) or psychological (horse is dominant or aggressive)…and it is the trainer’s job to sort out.

I also know that there are trainers that specialize in being “horse fixers”…but personally, I think all horse trainers should be capable of dealing with some of the typical misbehaviors that poorly handled horses typically present.

Sometimes it is a lack of fit between horse/rider personalities. I know of a horse that was bolting and running away with prior owner. Current owner rides bareback with no problem.

Polite horse behavior starts with polite leading out of the stall.

Warwick Schiller has a series of videos of various sessions on him working with an Andalusian that had “issues.”

Search for “Andalusian that had lots of issues” (it is anxious, bites, runs over people, explosive)…and you will get the idea of how working on the ground addresses multiple issues BEFORE ever sitting on their back such that when a rider does sit on their back, it is a non-issue.

Here is day 3 and some other subsequent days.

Day 3 with the 17.1 hand Andalusian that had a lot of issues.

What To Do When Riding a Horse That Gets Out of Control

Here is WS with a WB stallion day 1 and 2

Starting a Warmblood Stallion Part 1

Starting a warmblood stallion part2 -with Warwick Schiller

That WB stallion was not born this way, humans allowed him to become dangerous by poor handling.

Here is the 1st and 2nd rides on WB stallion

First Ride Outside on a Warmblood Stallion Part 1

First ride outside on Warmblood stallion part 2

[tabula_rashah]

It wouldn’t bother me that the trainer didn’t want to get on, except that trainer seems to have pushed OP to buy the unsuitable horse. Why push your client towards a horse you’re not even willing to get on? Unless trainer has been riding and fixing said horse and then owner gets on and un-fixes it repeatedly. I’d definitely been in that situation myself with a training horse

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

Yes, I agree with all of this, and was wondering if that’s how the trainer felt re: the un-fixing! Or it might just be the old story of a trainer encouraging a client to take on too much horse (and in this case then realizing it was more horse than the trainer felt comfortable getting on).

ETA: if it was the trainer who urged the OP to buy the first horse (and then take the second) I agree the trainer has an ethical obligation to say, offer professional advice to help the OP sell the horse. But to risk the trainer’s neck? Absolutely not. Trainers have to live with the results of injuries, the same as non-pros.

[trubandloki]

In this situation it sounds like the OP wanted a young fancy horse and though this horse might have been suitable when she bought it, it has turned into something that is not suitable as the OP realizes the horse makes her nervous.

Not judging the OP on that. I know how that is.

I also do not find it a negative that a trainer is not willing to ride a broken horse. Not everyone has to be great at all things. I find no fault in someone who is great at putting miles on horses but does not want to teach people and some people are great at teaching riders but do not want to ride.

[tabula_rashah]

I wasn’t blaming the OP either. We were discussing that the trainer wouldn’t get on this horse

[RedHorses]

I wouldn’t blame any trainer for having an I will not get on a rearer policy. Even knowing the triggers a rear has a higher risk of catastrophic injury than most misbehavior. In this case it sounds like the trainer did not witness the incident and would not have any understanding of what the horse’s rear trigger(s) are.

[fivestrideline]

@trubandloki

In this situation it sounds like the OP wanted a young fancy horse and though this horse might have been suitable when she bought it, it has turned into something that is not suitable as the OP realizes the horse makes her nervous.

Not judging the OP on that. I know how that is.

Agree. And horses can definitely get your number, especially athletic youngsters.

@RedHorses

I wouldn’t blame any trainer for having an I will not get on a rearer policy

Same here. I actually commend trainers who can say “this is outside my skills to address, here’s some contacts that can help”. The alternative, IME, being drugging the horse or getting abusive because the trainer is out of their depth. Not everyone is equipped to handle everything a horse can possibly throw at them. And a pro should always be learning, but if it’s okay for the owner to decide they’re overhorsed, it’s okay for the pro to do the same.

(Caveat: I’m not saying this is OP, this is a general comment about trainers.) Also it gets really muddy when the trainer doesn’t own the horse - what if the owner swears it isn’t physical and has had a vet out, or buys ill-fitting gear that’s been checked by a “fitter”, or continuously undoes the hard work of the trainer? What if the owner doesn’t want to do full training, or can’t work with the pro’s usual schedule? I will also not fault a pro for refusing to get on that horse to try to fix it. They’re a trainer, not vet or saddle fitter, so it is a bit out of bounds to argue with the other professionals the owner is using. Realistically, the trainer can make suggestions and then either refuse to ride the horse or ask the client to leave.

If OP’s trainer will not get on this young horse, I think OP needs to sell and get something their coach WILL get on. Generally speaking, horses need tune ups to maintain their training and packer skills - if the owner is not maintaining them, the coach needs to be able to (or have someone who can).

[endlessclimb]

I’m going to say it -

This horse is not a “real” rearer. He was put in a bad situation by a well meaning owner and made a mistake.

Again, let’s talk about the little things. This idea of “I do what I want!” could have been incrementally building for months now and came to a head.

OP if you’re going out and saying “my horse is a rearer, train him” you’re really selling him short. Tell the whole story. “He hasn’t really done anything wrong for 6 months but this morning was chilly and he was fresh as hell. I should have lunged him longer but I didn’t, he got wild and I came off,and now I’m scared. I don’t know if I want to deal with the tribulations of a young horse.”

THATS ALL OK.

[OverandOnward]

Trainers have a physical job. If they are hurt and can’t ride, or can’t ride effectively, they lose income. If they become permanently disabled, they can even lose their career.

Some horse behaviors are riskier than others, have a higher chance of a human injury. And, trainers generally are more competent with some behaviors than others – and of course there is a higher risk of injury with behaviors they handle less well. (True of every rider.)

IMO based on knowing a few pro trainers personally, every pro trainer needs to define the range of horse behaviors that they are working with, and stay off horses that are beyond their risk tolerance level. Even if they do have some skills for such problems. Don’t get hurt doing something that isn’t dressage, or isn’t jumping, etc.

As a business proposition – the coldly objective point of view – risk management is about lowering the chance of a serious incident. Not eliminating it - just reducing the unnecessary chances. Just as is true of our personal riding, as well.

The “things happen” attitude is the worst thing that any pro trainer (or any rider) can have. Such an attitude greatly increases the chance of a serious accident. ‘Things happen’ when the door is open for those things to happen.

It’s not a black-and-white question. It is not a matter of either ride all of the horses, or none of the horses. It is not about riding all of the situations, or none of the situations. The smart move for all of us is to decide what we are not going to ride. Stick to our better competencies. And what doesn’t scare us. With the rest, get help, maybe instruction, maybe make an avoidance change.

It is common for owners with a horse with a riskier behavior problem to be recommended to another trainer that specializes in such a behavior problem. That is the smart move by a pro trainer, both business and personally.

When you watch the videos of trainers who do specialize in behavior problems, they proceed with due care. Not working with the problem unless they first have in place all of the safety control measures. They rarely get hurt in these situations, because they make sure of safety, for human and horse. They are specialists with resources, experience and skills that most of us don’t have.

Any risk endeavor requires observing good boundaries. Because if not, it’s likely the endeavor will come to an unfortunate premature end. When something happens that is hard to come back from.

In fact, risk management appears to be part of the OP’s concerns with what is going on in her horse life recently. Perhaps OP could take a lesson from her pro trainer’s decision not to ride this horse – a decision that I personally agree with. Say ‘no’ to the things the OP knows are less in her wheelhouse. Even just that she doesn’t enjoy.

Don’t come up with rationalizations and self-judgments to push herself into potentially adverse situations. For her greater enjoyment of her horse time.

It seems OP’s trainer has recommended a behavioral trainer - I agree with the trainer on that. Hopefully OP’s trainer steps up to help move the horse to a better suited situation, as well. OP hasn’t been specific about that.

[SillyHorse]

I rode for a while with an “S” judge who does not get on any clients’ horses. She can’t afford to get hurt, plain and simple. I don’t judge OP’s trainer for not wanting to get on the horse, but I judge her for encouraging the OP to buy a horse she won’t get on.