What would you expect from a horse in training

[BrokenArrow]

With someone for 90 days? A trainer advertising themselves as a dressage trainer.

Horse in question was green broken, but solid in all three paces. No training issues beyond being green under saddle and no vices. The horse was broken in as a late 3 year old, spelled for 6 months and has now been sent away for further training to the trainer.

This isn’t my horse. The question came from someone within a circle of friends who sent her horse away for training. I’m not a fan of the trainer who has the horse so I’d like to make sure I have an unbiased opinion.

[shall]

Depends on the age of the horse, right? If 3 years old, at the end of 60 days, you can do the next 30 days along with the trainer and start hacking your horse with lots of praise.

[SuzieQNutter]

@BrokenArrow

With someone for 90 days? A trainer advertising themselves as a dressage trainer.

Horse in question was green broken, but solid in all three paces. No training issues beyond being green under saddle and no vices.

This isn’t my horse. The question came from someone within a circle of friends who sent her horse away for training. I’m not a fan of the trainer who has the horse so I’d like to make sure I have an unbiased opinion.

Every horse is different. Usually the greener they are with a trainer the more they learn as it is easier to train than it is to retrain.

The least I would expect is the horse going straight on circles and straight lines. The horse should be accepting the contact correctly and have good up and down transitions. There should be transitiones within the pace. He should be able to be lunged in side reins and have started lateral work. He should be able to do 10m circles in walk and trot at least.

What does your friend expect? If the horse was solid in all 3 places, with no vices,why send it away, unless it is because of rider ill health.

Work interferes a lot but you learn to work around it. SIGH.

[alibi_18]

@BrokenArrow

With someone for 90 days? A trainer advertising themselves as a dressage trainer.

Horse in question was green broken, but solid in all three paces. No training issues beyond being green under saddle and no vices.

This isn’t my horse. The question came from someone within a circle of friends who sent her horse away for training. I’m not a fan of the trainer who has the horse so I’d like to make sure I have an unbiased opinion.

To me, this is really subjective.

It depends what the owner is looking for, where the horse truly is in its training and how it will react to the new training plan.

90 days… a good walk, trot and canter, some leg yield and baby shoulder in? Like Training going toward 1rst level…

The trainer could be a good fit or not (for the horse or the owner), no matter if its a good or bad trainer.

And then, what is the owner’s level of involvment?
What is the owner’s skills level?

ETA:
What is the owner’s expectation?
What is in the trainer’s contract?
Why don’t you like this trainer?

[outerbanks77]

If the horse was going W/T/C but green, with another 90 days, I’d expect it to be accepting contact and being steadier in the bridle, having better transitions and steering, but not much more. Basically just solidifying the training level stuff, and maybe introducing a little bit of leg yield and TOF. It takes time to build a foundation. Depending on how the horse was started, it might be reasonable and sensible for the trainer to go back and do additional ground work, but I think that should be explained to the owner.

[Manni01]

I would hope for nice elastic W/T/C with the horse accepting the outer rein and the leg aids, going smoothly through corners and doing nice 20 m circles. Also I would hope for smooth transitions between the gaits. If thats there after 90 days I would be thrilled…

[soloudinhere]

Is this horse 3, or halfway through 4?

I think the answers vary quite a bit if the horse is 3 versus 4. A 4 year old is that much more physically mature. I think some of these comments about 10m circles, lateral work, etc is a lot for a 3 yo.

[fordtraktor]

@Manni01

I would hope for nice elastic W/T/C with the horse accepting the outer rein and the leg aids, going smoothly through corners and doing nice 20 m circles. Also I would hope for smooth transitions between the gaits. If thats there after 90 days I would be thrilled…

this. Unless a super trainer I would expect most of 90 days as a 4 yo to be about the basics of the training pyramid and a horse happy in its work.

[allons-y]

And don’t forget just building a good work ethic - ie keeping the horse happy in his work but not bored and not pushed to soreness or cranky from too much too soon. “Make haste slowly”!

[enjoytheride]

I worked with a young horse before he was sent to the trainer, he lunged, tacked up, you could get on him and someone could lead him around. In 30 days at the trainer he was broke WTC in the arena, in an open field, and went trail riding on the property with a confident lead horse.

[hoopoe]

I would expect this horse to be in level balance and accepting the bit. I would expect that it had some idea of some forward and back within the trot. I would expect it to halt and stand quietly. I would not expect a 10m circle but I would a 15 m and perhaps some small spirals in and out 15 to 20 . Transitions should be prompt and balanced

I would expect that it had ground manners . That it loads and unloads and has gone for a haul. It should have been introduced to grooming tasks like, mane pulling, clippers, perhaps even braided. Standing quietly for tasks.

bonus if it has been on hacks or to a small quiet schooling show or to work at another facility. Bonus if it has been worked in small controlled groups.

[Manni01]

@fordtraktor

this. Unless a super trainer I would expect most of 90 days as a 4 yo to be about the basics of the training pyramid and a horse happy in its work.

My experience is, if you get this after 90 days with a trainer, it is a super trainer!

[SuzieQNutter]

@enjoytheride

I worked with a young horse before he was sent to the trainer, he lunged, tacked up, you could get on him and someone could lead him around. In 30 days at the trainer he was broke WTC in the arena, in an open field, and went trail riding on the property with a confident lead horse.

As I said every horse is different. I broke in a gelding at work. So the first ride he led the trail group down the driveway over the bridge and out the gate. He continued to lead until we came to a Twiglet eating bulldozer sitting on the side of the road, he passed it easily when another staff member took the lead.

[Manni01]

from my own perspective (I have 2 young horses in exactly that age) its very difficult to tell how far a young horse is after this time.

my two young horses are very different and so their progress is different too. Some things which are difficult for one horse are not difficult for the other one at all…

Also if I would get a young horse from somebody else ( both of mine were raised by myself so I know everything about them) there might be things to be worked out with them which I don’t know about.

I believe giving a young horse to a trainer is based on more trust then anybody can imagine…
The owner needs to trust the trainer, the trainer needs to trust the owner as well (many don’t because of bad experiences) the horse needs to trust the trainer…

So thinking about it… I would not require a specific progress from a young horse trainer. I would go there as much as possible to watch what happens during training and go from there…

[AZ_TD]

I would want to watch the horse with the trainer and see if it is a good match. I would not expect any great progress in 90 days, but serious damage can happen in 90 days.

[J-Lu]

@BrokenArrow

With someone for 90 days? A trainer advertising themselves as a dressage trainer.

Horse in question was green broken, but solid in all three paces. No training issues beyond being green under saddle and no vices. The horse was broken in as a late 3 year old, spelled for 6 months and has now been sent away for further training to the trainer.

This isn’t my horse. The question came from someone within a circle of friends who sent her horse away for training. I’m not a fan of the trainer who has the horse so I’d like to make sure I have an unbiased opinion.

In real life, it 100% depends on the horse. Sure, lots of horses can be solid w-t-c after 90 days, maybe starting leg yield if they are 100% accepting of training aids. But many horses aren’t.

I have known several horses that were “solid” according to the people that backed them (not really, it turns out), and they were simply not mentally ready for calm w-t-c and 'training/first" after 90 days. They needed much more time and experience to get comfy in their own skin and get used to the fact that they are in a program now.

Of course, it also depends on the trainer and if that trainer can “mesh” with this horse. Many trainers mesh with a certain kind of horse and just not others. Some trainers push too hard. Some trainers are aware that they found a particular button on a horse and it’ll take time for the horse to get used to (or ignore) that button.

In short, I don’t think there is a good answer to “what do you expect after 90 days” and I think any good trainer will tell you that some horses will fit that answer and some will not.

[BrokenArrow]

Thanks for the replies, everyone.

The horse is 4 1/2 now and from my understanding, came back from being broken in a very solid citizen. Beyond what I saw on a video from the trainer, I’ve never seen the horse go under saddle myself. The trainer is a different person than the one who broke him in.

The owner has a very tiny breeding program and this is the first of her foals to go under saddle. The owner doesn’t personally ride, beyond the odd trail ride, so is sending her horses she breeds out to be campaigned under saddle. From what I saw in the video, the horse wasn’t working very well. He looked behind the aids, was counter bending around the corners and generally going around very unbalanced and not working into the bridle at all. The owner wanted to know if she should be upset with how the horse was going because to her it wasn’t looking great. I agreed with her, but wanted to be tactful because of my difference in opinion about the person training him.

The trainer and I don’t get along because of a few personality clashes. I personally think she’s a typical rail bird with a big opinion but very little to back up her mouth. She’s voiced her opinion of me riding a higher trainer horse quite a few times in a not so nice fashion which caused me to tell her exactly what I think of her. Childish, yes, I know. Which is why I was reluctant to share my opinion of the how the horse was going without being seen as biased.

I’ve done most of my own horses from scratch, so I know that all of the horses will be doing differently at different stages. I had a solid idea in mind what I would expect if I had a horse go away for 90 days of professional training and I wanted to make sure it matched what other people would think.

[netg]

@AZ TD

I would want to watch the horse with the trainer and see if it is a good match. I would not expect any great progress in 90 days, but serious damage can happen in 90 days.

Agreed!

At 90 days under saddle, my horse had many more days worked with in hand and not ridden than under saddle. Of course she was 3 1/2, not 4 1/2, so we did less physical effort for her in our rides. She took about 6 months to be calm and ready to work basically when you got on, so a lot of those 6 months was time walking on a loose rein until she mentally settled in to that day. She probably went out on the trail alone or with other horses more than half the rides she had - I saw my trainer opening the gate on her when I pulled up at the end of ride #3. That time out of the arena was very important to me.

At 90 days, when working - we did not do smaller circles than 20m in general. We were not showing the impulsion you’d want at training level, because she was super butt high, and we kept her steady and slower so she could balance instead. She naturally had a high tempo, so we were trying to teach her to slow and relax. For a horse who is slower and more relaxed, plus more physically developed, I would expect to see higher levels of impulsion.

My trainer also starts horses in a cavesson rein - just a regular noseband with rings for reins. By 90 days we were using the bit rein, but still had the noseband rein available.

For reference, this was more like 75 days under saddle, but number of rides in the 20s. I think it was my third time on her. I can’t quite tell, but I think I’m using the bit rein mostly. She’s not quite accepting the bit yet, just learning how - and using the cavesson then moving to the bit seems to work well to help them get there easily.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stA4zLdfL7E

At 90 days, she certainly understood the basics of balance and different aids, but she wasn’t consistent, of course. The description of your friend’s horse sounds like it’s not a dressage trainer, just an “english” trainer, maybe? My trainer knows where he wants to go, so he teaches horses to bend and move off aids properly from the start. It just makes it easier as you go. Most other trainers don’t, and just a solid citizen would be what I’d hope for, and know that’s not going to happen with all horses in 90 days, either.

[BigMama1]

@AZ TD

I would want to watch the horse with the trainer and see if it is a good match. I would not expect any great progress in 90 days, but serious damage can happen in 90 days.

Agree 100%. The owner and the trainer should have discussed goals and reasonable expectations before he training started, and should re-evaluate and adjust hem as needed after the first 30 days once the trainer has a better idea of the horse’s nature, work ethic, strength, fitness and mental maturity.

Because every horse is so different it’s hard to say what they “should” be doing st that stage. What they shouldn’t be doing is advanced work that is physically and mentally above them.

[NJRider]

@BrokenArrow

Thanks for the replies, everyone.

The horse is 4 1/2 now and from my understanding, came back from being broken in a very solid citizen. Beyond what I saw on a video from the trainer, I’ve never seen the horse go under saddle myself. The trainer is a different person than the one who broke him in.

The owner has a very tiny breeding program and this is the first of her foals to go under saddle. The owner doesn’t personally ride, beyond the odd trail ride, so is sending her horses she breeds out to be campaigned under saddle. From what I saw in the video, the horse wasn’t working very well. He looked behind the aids, was counter bending around the corners and generally going around very unbalanced and not working into the bridle at all. The owner wanted to know if she should be upset with how the horse was going because to her it wasn’t looking great. I agreed with her, but wanted to be tactful because of my difference in opinion about the person training him.

The trainer and I don’t get along because of a few personality clashes. I personally think she’s a typical rail bird with a big opinion but very little to back up her mouth. She’s voiced her opinion of me riding a higher trainer horse quite a few times in a not so nice fashion which caused me to tell her exactly what I think of her. Childish, yes, I know. Which is why I was reluctant to share my opinion of the how the horse was going without being seen as biased.

I’ve done most of my own horses from scratch, so I know that all of the horses will be doing differently at different stages. I had a solid idea in mind what I would expect if I had a horse go away for 90 days of professional training and I wanted to make sure it matched what other people would think.

It is hard to do an apple to apple comparison. My Dutch guy was started u/s correctly at age 3 1/2 in 60 days (Prior to that had excellent ground work). Came home and a month after went to a dressage trainer for 2 months and in 10 days was on the bit, steering well and basically on the aids but lacked balance, w/t/c. Went home a bit then went back a few months later and after 2 1/2 months scored in the 70’s at Training level and 80% in Materiale for 4 yr olds in first and only recognized show. So he had excellent foundation before being sent to the trainer and had an excellent mind, etc. Those things make a difference but I made sure all training was the best.