Crosscreek, why do you say this filly has an “outstanding pedigree for racing”?
Famous grandsires do not make a racehorse. Is that the only reason you think this filly has an outstanding pedigree to run?
[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7814840]
Tons of horse have won 2 o/o 3 of the races…24 to be exact.
Twenty-three horses have won both the Derby & the Preakness only to fall short in the Belmont. Since the point is to win all three, ‘near misses’ don’t count.
So I stand by my statement.
Of course it’s tough…of course it’s hard…but even so it can be done. It’s been done 11 times since 1919…and if you look at the records, this is the longest span since the beginning that a horse hasn’t won it.
When Secretariat won in '73, it had been 20 yrs since a horse hit all 3 races. But then after that 2 more horses in one decade managed it. And even more amazing, if you look at the TC record PRIOR to Secretariat, there were horses winning it every few years.
For instance in the span of 18 yrs, SEVEN horses won the TC. All those horses were bred, trained and ran in the '30’s & 40’s…see below.
[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD=“align: left”]1919
[/TD]
[TD]Sir Barton[/TD]
[TD]John Loftus[/TD]
[TD]H. G. Bedwell[/TD]
[TD]J. K. L. Ross[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD=“align: left”]1930[/TD]
[TD]Gallant Fox[/TD]
[TD]Earl Sande[/TD]
[TD]James Fitzsimmons[/TD]
[TD]Belair Stud[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD=“align: left”]1935[/TD]
[TD]Omaha[/TD]
[TD]William Saunders[/TD]
[TD]James Fitzsimmons[/TD]
[TD]Belair Stud[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD=“align: left”]1937[/TD]
[TD]War Admiral[/TD]
[TD]Charley Kurtsinger[/TD]
[TD]George Conway[/TD]
[TD]Samuel D. Riddle[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD=“align: left”]1941[/TD]
[TD]Whirlaway[/TD]
[TD]Eddie Arcaro[/TD]
[TD]Ben A. Jones[/TD]
[TD]Calumet Farm[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD=“align: left”]1943[/TD]
[TD]Count Fleet[/TD]
[TD]John Longden[/TD]
[TD]Don Cameron[/TD]
[TD]Mrs. J. D. Hertz[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD=“align: left”]1946[/TD]
[TD]Assault[/TD]
[TD]Warren Mehrtens[/TD]
[TD]Max Hirsch[/TD]
[TD]King Ranch[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD=“align: left”]1948[/TD]
[TD]Citation[/TD]
[TD]Eddie Arcaro[/TD]
[TD]Ben A. Jones[/TD]
[TD]Calumet Farm[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD=“align: left”]1973[/TD]
[TD]Secretariat[/TD]
[TD]Ron Turcotte[/TD]
[TD]Lucien Laurin[/TD]
[TD]Meadow Stable[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD=“align: left”]1977[/TD]
[TD]Seattle Slew[/TD]
[TD]Jean Cruguet[/TD]
[TD]William Turner, Jr.[/TD]
[TD]Karen L. Taylor[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD=“align: left”]1978[/TD]
[TD]Affirmed[/TD]
[TD]Steve Cauthen[/TD]
[TD]Lazaro S. Barrera[/TD]
[TD]Harbor View Farm[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
So what other explanation would you give for this long absence of winners? If no horse wins in 2015 it will be 38 yrs…almost twice as long as any other gap.
It’s either breeding or training…take your pick. Personally, I think it’s both.
BTW, sorry to the OP for derailing your thread.[/QUOTE]
Just a quick note that the foal crops in the 1940s were around 6000 compared to our foal crops now of over 20,000. Simply the fact there are so many more horses will make it much tougher to win.
OP, When I lived in Lexington, I haunted the shed rows, looking for nice horses to turn into hunters. Because it was Lexington, many of the young horses had impressive pedigrees, and it showed. The horses I found could not beat a fat man running downhill, but they were classy individuals.
AP Indy is gorgeous; so was Unbridleds Song. So your foal has a decent chance of being a real looker, too. The best place to increase a good looking yearling’s value is on the line at Devon or Upperville.
But even for that, a young horse needs to be professionally prepped and handled. – Winners in the lead and feed division are mostly shown by a big name handler. The top shows are no place for an owner to handle her own.
Bottom line: No matter what you do, it is going to cost money to make money.
[QUOTE=Lord Helpus;7816061]
OP, When I lived in Lexington, I haunted the shed rows, looking for nice horses to turn into hunters. Because it was Lexington, many of the young horses had impressive pedigrees, and it showed. The horses I found could not beat a fat man running downhill, but they were classy individuals.
AP Indy is gorgeous; so was Unbridleds Song. So your foal has a decent chance of being a real looker, too. The best place to increase a good looking yearling’s value is on the line at Devon or Upperville.
But even for that, a young horse needs to be professionally prepped and handled. – Winners in the lead and feed division are mostly shown by a big name handler. The top shows are no place for an owner to handle her own.
Bottom line: No matter what you do, it is going to cost money to make money.[/QUOTE]
Those sires are too far back in this horse’s pedigree to make a difference on how this horse turns out. It’s kind of like saying because my boy has Man o War, Mr. P, and Somethingroyal is his pedigree, he should of been a super star. But those horses are too far back to really do anything for him, except made my dad like him since he was fascinated with Man oWar and Secretariat 
Purpose bred TBs will sell for a great price if their lines are PROVEN IN THE SHOW RING.
Everyone is a who’s who for racing in the pedigree. No one cares.
You’ll find Fred babies going for more because he’s proven, and his kids are proven.
That’s all there is to it.
But also, a TB is usually a more sensitive ride than a warmblood. Sure some deviate but the majority don’t.
The adult ammy is more likey to take their 15K and spend it on a horse they know will grow up to be a bit larger bodied and more forgiving.
Produce TBs with the warmblood brain and look and they will sell like warmblood IF PROVEN to grow up like warmbloods.
A horse isn’t nice just because you said so. A horse is nice when it proves so and when it’s family members prove so IN THE BUYERS DISCIPLINE OF CHOICE.
[QUOTE=Lord Helpus;7816061]
OP, When I lived in Lexington, I haunted the shed rows, looking for nice horses to turn into hunters. Because it was Lexington, many of the young horses had impressive pedigrees, and it showed. The horses I found could not beat a fat man running downhill, but they were classy individuals.
AP Indy is gorgeous; so was Unbridleds Song. So your foal has a decent chance of being a real looker, too. The best place to increase a good looking yearling’s value is on the line at Devon or Upperville.
But even for that, a young horse needs to be professionally prepped and handled. – Winners in the lead and feed division are mostly shown by a big name handler. The top shows are no place for an owner to handle her own.
Bottom line: No matter what you do, it is going to cost money to make money.[/QUOTE]
Thank you. “Challenged” is gorgeous and so are his first foals. We live in NE Oklahoma…Devon and Upperville are out of the question!! We’re not newbies to breeding, raising, selling horses.We’ve been breeding for over 30 years…I was just asking for a “realistic”, current price range and I’ve gotten some good advice.
[QUOTE=spotted draft x filly;7816193]
Those sires are too far back in this horse’s pedigree to make a difference on how this horse turns out. It’s kind of like saying because my boy has Man o War, Mr. P, and Somethingroyal is his pedigree, he should of been a super star. But those horses are too far back to really do anything for him, except made my dad like him since he was fascinated with Man oWar and Secretariat ;)[/QUOTE]
Apparently you did not see Challenged’s pedigree. He is by Unbridled’s Song out of an AP Indy mare.
[QUOTE=crosscreeksh;7816417]
Apparently you did not see Challenged’s pedigree. He is by Unbridled’s Song out of an AP Indy mare.[/QUOTE]
Yes I did see it and having famous grandparents/great-grandparents doesn’t mean much. It’s all about what the parents and siblings (if any) have done.
[QUOTE=crosscreeksh;7816417]
Apparently you did not see Challenged’s pedigree. He is by Unbridled’s Song out of an AP Indy mare.[/QUOTE]
Yes, he is. However you are asking about your stallion’s GET which does make Unbridled’s Song and A.P. Indy the “grand parents”. I can’t find a picture of Challenged or any stallion on your website who is living, and neither is there a picture of either DAM. The dams are very important…:yes:
So, knowing what the “grandsires” look like is unhelpful. You must realize this? You have been breeding horses for many years? 
There is so much more information needed for anyone to even guess what price you should ask for your weanling.
Not many people buy weanlings especially going into winter, it’s just another mouth to feed. What you can do to make your horse stand out better is a lot of work. Don’t just work on picking their feet up, bring them forward like a farrier. Work on getting them to stand, touch and brush them everywhere, start loading/unloading them on a trailer, expose them to a lot of “scary” stuff, fill a syringe with water or applesauce to get them use to taking oral meds like wormers. The more you do now will make your horse look better to buyers then one that just had basic handling. Plus it will make it much easier to transition to the next steps.
[QUOTE=crosscreeksh;7816417]
Apparently you did not see Challenged’s pedigree. He is by Unbridled’s Song out of an AP Indy mare.[/QUOTE]
So?
Money Madam, Challenged’s dam, has barely produced black type. She has two out of 13 foals that have gotten second a single time in a limited stakes race. She herself was only able to eek out $15k in winnings. Only 7 of her foals have actually made it to the track, suggesting soundness–in limb or mind–issues. This mare certainly hasn’t produced anything that would be considered a stallion prospect for the race market.
Challenged himself is unraced and has produced nothing.
From what you’ve told us about the mare, she is unraced and has produced nothing. She’s also apparently from the “colored” TB lines, which have not raced or have raced poorly. In addition, you’ve said the mare is full to Jagged Illusion, but Miss Lucky Priss, his dam, only has one JC registered foal.
So, you have a filly–who sounds very nice, btw–out of a mare with no race record or producers behind her, by a stallion with an incredibly lack luster page. Who his sire and grandsire are is pretty IMMATERIAL. In fact, I’d say it really hurts this horse. He’s by a stallion who’s got a reputation for producing unsound horses, he’s unraced due to unsoundness and he’s out of a dam who, on paper, looks like she may have some soundness issues in her own foals.
IOW, nothing about this page indicates “outstanding pedigree for racing” at all. In the least. Challenged would not be bred by race horse people for race horses, ESPECIALLY for the sales market.
Various posters here keep telling you this, but you keep citing the grandsire and great-grandsire of this filly as some miracle of race breeding. Unbridled’s Song had over 1500 foals, and there are nearly 500 AP Indy mares out there breeding. What you have here is not unusual.
I imagine your filly would do quite nicely in a show home, though. Market her that way 
[QUOTE=crosscreeksh;7816417]
Apparently you did not see Challenged’s pedigree. He is by Unbridled’s Song out of an AP Indy mare.[/QUOTE]
Not wanting to beat a dead horse here, but this is very typical of someone who doesnt understand pedigrees. So the foal has Unbridled Song as a grandsire and AP Indy as a great grand sire. As have probably 100,000 other horses.
If the only thing recommending a stallion is his sire and grandsire, he likely needs a visit from a vet.
[QUOTE=Simkie;7812589]
Huh. The mystery deepens. Jagged Illusion’s dam, Miss Lucky Priss, only has one JC registered foal.
My filly did sell as a weanling at Keeneland November. Here is her page–fairly weak, which explains the low price. Her dam did win over $60k in 25 starts, but was only competitive at the claiming level. She produced winners that ran at the same level.
Her sire is a G2 winner of over $750k who went on to produce Dullahan, who was 3rd in the Kentucky Derby. But even at the time this filly was sold, EtS had produced a G1 winner and his get had earned over $5M. To date, he’s up to over $14M in earnings in 7 crops of racing age. And this yearling of his STILL only brought $3k at Keeneland.
I’m sharing these details to give you a watermark on how a weanling with a weak page to race sells on the open market. I bought this filly as an unbroke 2 yo for sport. She’s quite tall, large framed, quite attractive and very, very easy to deal with. Pretty mover. But not worth much of anything as a race horse ;)[/QUOTE]
I have a sneaking feeling that this filly will not be able to be registered as a TB. Jagged Illusion had 2 full siblings, one colt and one filly, and both had their applications cancelled. So if the OP owns this mare that had her application cancelled, the filly wont be registerable.
Im wondering if the 2 foals that had their applications cancelled werent involved in some sort of AI situation.
[QUOTE=halo;7816782]
I have a sneaking feeling that this filly will not be able to be registered as a TB. Jagged Illusion had 2 full siblings, one colt and one filly, and both had their applications cancelled. So if the OP owns this mare that had her application cancelled, the filly wont be registerable.
Im wondering if the 2 foals that had their applications cancelled werent involved in some sort of AI situation.[/QUOTE]
Ah. Interesting. Guess all this talk about the filly’s desirability to sell as a racehorse is moot then :lol:
Crosscreek actually looks to have four unregistered Puchi’s Rambo x Miss Lucky Priss foals:
Really interesting thread for TB information!
But I wish some posters wouldn’t be so negative towards the OP. I can’t help but feel she is getting slammed a little bit too much for her choice of horse breeding.
Why oh why are all topics that mention “coloured” horses doomed to negativity? :sigh:
[QUOTE=Janeway;7817725]
Really interesting thread for TB information!
But I wish some posters wouldn’t be so negative towards the OP. I can’t help but feel she is getting slammed a little bit too much for her choice of horse breeding.
Why oh why are all topics that mention “coloured” horses doomed to negativity? :sigh:[/QUOTE]
Yep. This seems a bit more than is called for. It was page one that she said she didn’t want to sell as a race horse and yet on page three they are demanding she explain her breeding goals and how it doesn’t have a great race pedigree. Ironically, many of these “discussions” are with other colored tb stallion owners.
I think the discussion evolved from her saying “Outstanding pedigree for sport or racing.” That would indicate, to me, that she is looking to market to either sport or racing market.
[QUOTE=halo;7817983]
I think the discussion evolved from her saying “Outstanding pedigree for sport or racing.” That would indicate, to me, that she is looking to market to either sport or racing market.[/QUOTE]
Sure but she said that she was looking for a sport horse sale on the first page. And she is not asking on the racing forum. I get that she was possibly being proud of her foal in her above description. That never happens on this forum…
I think the reality was already mentioned in the second post. No need to call someone’s breeding program down or repeatedly tell them their horse is not bred well for the track if she is looking for a sport horse sale.
Should you bred tb’s for sport if they are not from super accomplished lines? Probably no more then breeding Wb’s without super accomplished lines. But the Wb isn’t bred for another sport and then discarded when it doesn’t make the grade, so in the end the OP might have bred as good of a horse as many Wbs (that will bring in more) but she probably will not get as much unless she can show the worth of the foal to the buyers.
[QUOTE=stoicfish;7818024]
I think the reality was already mentioned in the second post. No need to call someone’s breeding program down or repeatedly tell them their horse is not bred well for the track if she is looking for a sport horse sale. [/QUOTE]
The OP continued to insist that the horse is very well bred to race because of Unbridled’s Song as the grandsire and AP Indy as the great grandsire.
The fact this filly might not even be out of JC registered mare makes the claim that she has an “outstanding pedigree to race” a little mind blowing.
[QUOTE=Simkie;7818028]
The OP continued to insist that the horse is very well bred to race because of Unbridled’s Song as the grandsire and AP Indy as the great grandsire.
The fact this filly might not even be out of JC registered mare makes the claim that she has an “outstanding pedigree to race” a little mind blowing.[/QUOTE]
Fair enough if the foal is not registered.
