Up front, with zero prodding- what does this mean?
Horse is a non-traditional breed cross for dressage but has very respectable movement and scores.
Ugh! The dreaded “negotiable price”. I went through this when shopping and found it to mean the seller would knock off 15-20% of the asking price if they loved me and the home I was offering.
A few had already lowered their asking price and weren’t eager to offer something lower.
The best defense is a good offense. Have a grip on what the market is for said horse and be prepared to offer in that range.
I had sellers reduce their price before I even got on the animal much less said I was interested. I also had a seller say she wouldn’t sell her horse to me at ANY price.
Sellers can can be fickle. Generally I found them willing to come down 20% without much effort.
I haven’t really been able to find “comps”, though I have looked. It’s a common (and popular) cross for one discipline but not for dressage. I wish I had a better grasp on it. If one didn’t know the breeding and just based the price on movement in a video, I’d say the asking price was a teeny tiny touch high for the scores received. So because they are “negotiable”, if I like the horse, do I offer 12% less than asking? 15%? More? Less?
And my fav from all these horse ads is the one like: “For Sale: $40,000. $35,000 to a loving home!”
Umm, so I should just march up there and say, “I don’t plan on being loving so I should probably pay the $40k”? People are so weird.
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To me this means “$40k to the professional who is going to flip this horse, $35k to someone who actually wants it for themselves” but ymmv.
Forget the breeding and price the horse.If it’s a touch high and they’re negotiable, I’d offer what you think is fair. I don’t really ascribe to the “offer low and meet in the middle” theory, I prefer to tell someone what I’m willing to pay.
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I agree with soloudinhere, tell them what you will pay period and what you think is a fair price for the horse. They have indicated they will negotiate so do so.
I’d feel more confident about this if I were more educated. I don’t think it’s fair to the seller if I just pull a number out of thin air and I do not want to be a jerk. I did try a similar cross (a year younger and confirmed at 3rd instead of 2nd ) from someone who’s notorious for pricing high and it was listed at $10k less than what this horse is being offered. Quality of movement is pretty close between the two horses. Maybe that’s how I should phrase it (should I fall in love with this one). I don’t want her thinking I’m pulling numbers out of a hat, but I also don’t want to be taken for a ride, either.
I tried asking my instructor but she has a horse for sale as well, thus a conflict of interest.
If price is negotiable, then start negotiating. Turn it around on the seller. Tell the seller to make you an offer. If she hems and haws, ask for a ballpark or a range. Once she throws out a figure, counter the offer unless you think it’s a good price.
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You are being your own worst enemy by not approaching this negotiation with conviction and confidence.
This is where life parallels riding horses…if you were to approach a jump with this amount of self-doubt and worry you will probably get a refusal…of both the jump and the offer.
You have your negotiating point above in purple. Offer something even lower than the $10k than the horse you mentioned and go from there.
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I would look at it more from your own perspective vs looking externally. What are YOU willing to pay for this horse given it’s breeding, training, scores, experience, own feelings, etc? If you are very interested in this horse, asking anything much lower than 10% is a bit rude. If you only like the horse at $X, than ask $X and be prepared to walk away.
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I guess that depends. In theory confirmed at 3rd is worth more. However maybe that one is located in a less accessible area (like someone’s backyard versus in training) or is quirky, or has something that will show up on the vet.
I’d actually be less inclined to negotiate if someone said “I can get this other horse for X less” because horses are so individual. Two full siblings could be worth vastly different amounts. I’d personally prefer you to just make an offer, because after all I want to sell a horse and I can decide if he is worth to me what he is worth to you. If someone said “I saw another horse confirmed at 3rd for $10k less so I’m offering you $15k less” I would probably just tell you to go buy the other one if he’s so much better.
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I usually just ask what they will take for the horse once I am done trying it if they say price is negotiable. If I still feel that is too high, I make an offer.
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Thank you. All very valuable perspectives. I have liked my interactions with this seller so far and she seems to be a straight shooter so I will ask her.
Pluvinel- now you know why I don’t jump! :lol:
To clarify- one of the things that’s making me not confident is that I think the horse can move but since I haven’t been able to get my instructor to say anything about him (she has a horse for sale as well) I don’t have an expert’s perspective on his ability. I am an AA just trying to buy my first fairly serious horse to modestly move up the levels- I’m never going to be the super winner out there. I don’t have the temperament or the talent myself. I don’t mind at all his non-traditional breeding and I know the video seems good but I’d feel better if someone who is much more educated takes a look and says “worth it” or not. I do know he’s not the fanciest thing out there but he might very well be perfectly good enough for me and bring some other qualities to the table (temperament, previous show experience, etc.).
Why won’t your instructor help you evaluate this horse? Are you a regular client? Maybe you need to talk to her and clarify the relationship (maybe she expects a commission or have a discussion about compensation). I will say a lot of instructors get tons of videos from students asking for input, I do not expect the instructor to give their time for free. It seems if she will be working with both of you, her input would be important.
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First off, don’t start serious negotiating until you are 100 % sure you want the horse. Satisfy yourself as to the horses movement. If your trainer is hostile about your shopping, get another good pair of eyes and perhaps another trainer.
Once you are ready for a PPE, then do the negotiation. I would think in this case the PPE needs to be pretty clean for you to want the horse. So negotiate before on condition PPE is good.
Honestly looking at asking prices for other horses is not reliable. You will never know what that horse sold for.
I agree, ask in a friendly way how much the seller will come down, and also know before hand what you will pay.
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How does the horse feel when you ride him? Does he give you a nice elastic feel or does he hit the ground like a ton of bricks? Heavy in front? Responsive/ nonresponsive to your aids? Are you comfortable/ confident with his temperment? Horses can be trained but I think that “feel” is part of their being and you can get a lot further with a horse of you mesh with him. Especially us A/A’s. That is as important as somebody else’s assessment. That doesn’t mean that someone else’s input is not valuable too.
Maybe the instructor can give you an idea of the horse’s value and hopefully she can not be too biased with another horse to sell you. If you pay her for her time no matter which horse you buy perhaps she will be less likely to be biased.
If you feel uncertain shopping on your own and your trainer will not help you because she has a horse for sale–which you presumably do not want–then you need to get a new trainer. That should be your starting point.
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I completely understand (and agree with) your wish to have the horse evaluated by another set of eyes.
As an amateur myself, I would NEVER buy a horse without such input, and I’ve been in horses my whole life.
If your regular instructor can’t or won’t help you, perhaps you could ask an experienced friend. Or, find another professional, explain clearly your goals and budget, offer to pay for their time/expertise, and take them with you to see the horse. It’s not an unusual request, many pros will do this.
S/he may not be able to assess the horse’s suitability for you as a rider if they don’t know you well, but they can surely evaluate the horse’s gaits, training and potential and see if they are in line with its’ price.
Luck to you!
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To the original query: Price being negotiable means just that - they are willing to negotiate (but the unwritten rules - liking you, the home you offer, how you interact with the horse - all still apply). And they might have an unstated number in their head that’s the lowest they’ll go but of course most of them won’t come out and tell you what that number is.
With the other details that you’ve provided, I have to say: I’d be a little peeved at the trainer. I was in this situation once. Two people (barn owner and my trainer) had horses they had for sale. The BO wasn’t able to get past the fact that I declined to buy their horse. My trainer accepted what I said and helped me assess horses, not letting her “conflict of interest” weigh in.
If you haven’t, I would have a discussion with trainer to feel them out. Have you outright declined the horse they’re offering with reasons why? (Mine was “While I really appreciate your willingness to cut me a deal on Horse, because of horse’s age and upkeep requirements, I don’t feel comfortable with the idea of making an offer.”) And then of course, having a frank conversation “I would like your assistance in assessing horses.” And make a reasonable offer of payment for their time. I haven’t seen that mentioned yet. My trainer didn’t ask for remuneration, but I ended up taking her out to a (nice) dinner that I paid for, and she knew that it would be “business dinner” where we look at all the info I had on horses. This I think is way less formal than is ideal for most people/trainers. Figure out a fair price and include that in your discussion.
And of course, if trainer is still unreliable/untrustworthy/unwilling to participate in the process: I’m in the new trainer camp as well. I wouldn’t want to work with someone who can’t be professional in this situation.
As far as figuring out the pricing/what to offer for this guy, I’m in the camp where I wouldn’t try to compare directly between this horse and the other one you looked at earlier. There can be a myriad of reasons why horses get priced differently - even though a year older and only second level, it could be that this off breed horse is 110% reliable (and capable of taking a joke even from the ammiest of riders, which is well worth its weight in gold!) At the end of the day, I would just make an offer that you feel comfortable offering - take into account the market (and I know you said there’s no real comps out there, but just tracking what you see in some of the horse sales groups, what people are asking/responding to, seeing what price different levels of horses are moving at) and what you can offer comfortably.
At the end of the day? You may offer too low and they decline. If you really like the horse, you can increase your offer. Or you may offer higher than the lowest they’re willing to offer and they jump on it and you could’ve gotten the horse for a few thousand less - but if this is a horse you like, like to ride, that suits you well, long-term does that 3% of the price that you could’ve gone lower on matter?
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I’d talk to my trainer. Yes you’d likely have to pay something for her time but having a professional set of eyes is always better. Frankly her having a horse for sale shouldn’t change anything. When I bought my horse my trainer had 4 horses for sale. I had already ridden 3 and had plans to ride one again and try the other. But my trainer still had me try another horse who had no connection to her before I rode her two. I fell in love and never tried the other two. To me a good trainer should be more worried about finding their student a good mount then selling one horse. To this day o can say the commission we payed my trainer was totally worth it because I have the horse a love.
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The last horse I purchased that was “negotiable,” I’d flown across country, ridden the horse fairly extensively, met the owners, and we all liked each other, so it was easy to say to them “OK, I like the horse, if he passes a PPE, I’d like to take him home with me if we can come up with a mutually comfortable price. You say you are negotiable, what do you actually want to get out of this horse?” Which save a whole lot of messing around on everybody’s part.
(They gave me a number that was a lot lower than the asking price and a lot lower than I was prepared to have to pay. They were happy, I was ecstatic…)
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