When a stranger enters your property at night... WWYD?

[Gloria]

There are so many good discussions and advice on this thread. Cssutton, thank you for your posts. Very informative, and obviously from someone who have thought very carefully of the topic. It does remind me of a story I’m still thinking of even today.

The story was told by an instructor at my concealed carry permit class. A man, a good man by all accounts, was driving by a warehouse at night, next to some housing unit at some rough neighborhood, on the way home. While he drove by he saw a man on top of a woman, a knife in his hand, stabbing the woman repeatedly, mercilessly. The driver stopped, hopped out of his car, screamed at the aggressor to stop, or he would shoot. The aggressor ignored him, continued stabbing at the woman, presumably with an intent to kill, so the driver discharged his firearm, and killed the man.

The good Samantha was arrested, and in the court, found out that the woman was the aggressor’s wife, and she had stabbed him just before the incident. So the husband seriously injured, grabbed the knife, attacked his wife, and since he was seriously injured, in a delusional state, he didn’t hear the warning from the shooter. Since the good Samantha fired his gun while his own life was not in danger, he was pronounced guilty, charged, and sent to jail.

The story was to warn gun owners that they are not law enforcement. OP, this might also have an impact on your neighbor, if circumstance calls for him to discharge his gun, and he kills your intruder for you.

Here is the moral dilemma. If you pass by a scene and witness someone stabbing another to death, can you live with conscience to just “let it go” even if that is legally the safest way for yourself? Calling 911 is moot point. By the time the police arrives, you can be 110% certain that the woman would be dead. If the story didn’t have such a twist, and the aggressor really is an aggressor instead of a victim, would the jury have more sympathy toward the shooter?

[chancellor2]

Apparently, the I LOVE MY PIT BULL sign at the end of my long driveway is enough to deter more than a few people. She is very friendly but strangers don’t know that. Doesn’t matter if you have a pit bull. Get a sign! Safer than a gun.

[cssutton]

Several interesting things.

A lot of difference between a girl, by herself, and a 6’4" or whatever football player.

And his own dumb mouth.

“I was not going to cower in my own home.”

A statement that most of us would take as aggressive.

Like “Nobody is going to push me around.”

I suspect that he made more than one comment along the same line.

Lots of bad judgment displayed in that case.

[Graymaresrule]

[QUOTE=TrotTrotPumpkn;7785051]
I like the better/motion light idea. I like the security system idea, but I’ve never been able to justify the cost personally. I think the gun think is a pretty big decision, and classes are a must.

I just wanted to comment on dogs. I have Dobermans. My 70lb adult rescue, laid back, couch-potato-chill Doberman with the deep bark and ridiculously, gigantic teeth is just as scary to a trespasser as my working-bred, can’t sit still for 10 minutes (really), needs a constant task or he gets destructive, drivey, one-person only, protection/working line dog…that I train constantly and is a huge time commitment, and I would go so far as to say a pretty big lifestyle choice. He drives my husband insane if I’m gone, and this is the guy’s third Doberman.

The point is any somewhat big dog that barks (which you can teach them to do) is going to do the job and is probably a lot less work than a young working dog. Unless you can afford a trained protection dog (still need to be able to control it) or are really into dog sport. YMMV.[/QUOTE]
Check with your homeowners’ insurance. They might offer a discount for a monitored fire and intrusion system and might also have a life alert type alarm for your mom.

[SGray]

my next door neighbor had 2 labs and an aussie when he was burglarized
I have larger and less friendly to strangers dogs and have not been hassled (over the years: GSx, Dobiex, RRidgebackx, GPyrx, GPyr - from shelters)

[trubandloki]

[QUOTE=cssutton;7785054]
UM…

“I admit I am having a hard time trying to picture what car trouble I would have that would cause me to wander about in the yard of someone else with a flashlight. Yes, hang near my car. Yes, maybe walk to their door to ask for a tool or phone, but wander around the yard, not so much.”

You were talking about why anyone would be wandering around your property at night.

I gave an example of just why someone would.

You are correct that in that case calling the cops would have had a better outcome.[/QUOTE]

I was responding to the post that I quoted. It was part of a whole conversation. Where someone said it was not scary, etc.

I am not anti gun at all, I was just not getting the tangent between my not gun conversation and what you posted about it.

[cssutton]

[QUOTE=Gloria;7785070]
There are so many good discussions and advice on this thread. Cssutton, thank you for your posts. Very informative, and obviously from someone who have thought very carefully of the topic. It does remind me of a story I’m still thinking of even today.

The story was told by an instructor at my concealed carry permit class. A man, a good man by all accounts, was driving by a warehouse at night, next to some housing unit at some rough neighborhood, on the way home. While he drove by he saw a man on top of a woman, a knife in his hand, stabbing the woman repeatedly, mercilessly. The driver stopped, hopped out of his car, screamed at the aggressor to stop, or he would shoot. The aggressor ignored him, continued stabbing at the woman, presumably with an intent to kill, so the driver discharged his firearm, and killed the man.

The good Samantha was arrested, and in the court, found out that the woman was the aggressor’s wife, and she had stabbed him just before the incident. So the husband seriously injured, grabbed the knife, attacked his wife, and since he was seriously injured, in a delusional state, he didn’t hear the warning from the shooter. Since the good Samantha fired his gun while his own life was not in danger, he was pronounced guilty, charged, and sent to jail.

The story was to warn gun owners that they are not law enforcement. OP, this might also have an impact on your neighbor, if circumstance calls for him to discharge his gun, and he kills your intruder for you.

Here is the moral dilemma. If you pass by a scene and witness someone stabbing another to death, can you live with conscience to just “let it go” even if that is legally the safest way for yourself? Calling 911 is moot point. By the time the police arrives, you can be 110% certain that the woman would be dead. If the story didn’t have such a twist, and the aggressor really is an aggressor instead of a victim, would the jury have more sympathy toward the shooter?[/QUOTE]

The first inclination is to say that you MUST help.

But think about it. Regular as clockwork, we read of plain clothes cops being shot, frequently fatally, by uniformed cops because in large departments they don’t all know each other.

If they can’t sort it out, we sure can’t.

Use your imagination and you can see how bad things can happen to those who think they can be a hero.

You are in a convenience store. You are not close to the register, but you see that there are tough words being exchanged between the cashier and this tough looking dude who is pointing a gun right in the cashier’s face.

So you slip up closer and shoot the bad guy.

Only it turns out that he is with the narc squad arresting the cashier for selling drugs under the table.

Some hero.

You can think of a hundred potential traps.

I have a very simple theory.

The convenience store will not allow employees to carry. They will not hire qualified security, like off duty cops who want extra money.

Sure, they have a security camera, but that does not prevent crime.

So I am supposed to jump in and save their money for them, protect their clerk for them while exposing myself to lawsuits, danger of death, loss of assets for my family and maybe even jail time for making a mistake?

Heck no. If the store wants protection, they should make their own arrangements.

In my make believe example, I would stay as far away from the register as the walls in the store allow, keep very very quiet…but also get mentally ready to protect myself should it turn into a bad day for me.

Now this story has nothing to do with horse barns in the middle of the night, but it does emphasize the point that you must think about what you would do in various situations and how important the correct decision is to your life and future.

[pAin_t_Misbehavin]

I think you did the right thing, OP, by staying indoors and calling the police. And if you have any doubts about having a gun in the house with your mom then absolutely you are right not to have one.

I’m not sure how much protection a gun is, really. There’s a fellow who lives near me - a founding member of a local hunt club, intimately familiar with long guns and a good shot who gets lots of practice. He’s also known always to carry a sidearm because he runs a roadhouse out here in the middle of nowhere.

Last week, after he closed up the bar and went upstairs to go to sleep, his water went off. As he was going down to investigate, his lights went out. Gun drawn, he went outside, and saw the intruder. They exchanged gunfire. Intruder’s confederate dropped my neighbor by shooting him in the back. Neighbor, a tough old bird, managed to call for help on his phone and is still in the hospital.

Anyway. Just sayin’. My neighbor is a country boy and a hunter and went outside armed and on full alert and is fortunate he wasn’t killed. I think staying inside and calling 911 was a fine way for you to handle the situation, OP.

Oh, ETA: I know you couldn’t find out any info about the process server. But if I thought for a second one of my process servers was out banging on doors in the middle of the night scaring people to death I’d never use him again. And I’d certainly appreciate knowing about it!

[cssutton]

[QUOTE=pAin’t_Misbehavin’;7785138]
I think you did the right thing, OP, by staying indoors and calling the police. And if you have any doubts about having a gun in the house with your mom then absolutely you are right not to have one.

I’m not sure how much protection a gun is, really. There’s a fellow who lives near me - a founding member of a local hunt club, intimately familiar with long guns and a good shot who gets lots of practice. He’s also known always to carry a sidearm because he runs a roadhouse out here in the middle of nowhere.

Last week, after he closed up the bar and went upstairs to go to sleep, his water went off. As he was going down to investigate, his lights went out. Gun drawn, he went outside, and saw the intruder. They exchanged gunfire. Intruder’s confederate dropped my neighbor by shooting him in the back. Neighbor, a tough old bird, managed to call for help on his phone and is still in the hospital.

Anyway. Just sayin’. My neighbor is a country boy and a hunter and went outside armed and on full alert and is fortunate he wasn’t killed. I think staying inside and calling 911 was a fine way for you to handle the situation, OP.

Oh, ETA: I know you couldn’t find out any info about the process server. But if I thought for a second one of my process servers was out banging on doors in the middle of the night scaring people to death I’d never use him again. And I’d certainly appreciate knowing about it![/QUOTE]

I will bet that when this case is solved, you will find that it was some sort of set-up.

For instance, you are a horse owner. If I wanted to kill you, what easier way than to do something to your horse barn that would cause you to come running out of the house thinking of nothing except how important it is to solve the problem, but not something such a big deal that the fire department and the cops come immediately.

I suspect that your neighbor has a well and maybe a pump house some distance from the house.

So shut down the electricity to the pump house, open an outside spigot and wait.

If someone is out to get you, you really have all of the cards stacked against you and if you make it, it is just luck. Even the mob could not protect themselves against ambush.

But that is not the same thing as the ordinary crime of opportunity, which is what many of us will experience.

[cssutton]

[QUOTE=pAin’t_Misbehavin’;7785138]
I think you did the right thing, OP, by staying indoors and calling the police. And if you have any doubts about having a gun in the house with your mom then absolutely you are right not to have one.

I’m not sure how much protection a gun is, really. There’s a fellow who lives near me - a founding member of a local hunt club, intimately familiar with long guns and a good shot who gets lots of practice. He’s also known always to carry a sidearm because he runs a roadhouse out here in the middle of nowhere.

Last week, after he closed up the bar and went upstairs to go to sleep, his water went off. As he was going down to investigate, his lights went out. Gun drawn, he went outside, and saw the intruder. They exchanged gunfire. Intruder’s confederate dropped my neighbor by shooting him in the back. Neighbor, a tough old bird, managed to call for help on his phone and is still in the hospital.

Anyway. Just sayin’. My neighbor is a country boy and a hunter and went outside armed and on full alert and is fortunate he wasn’t killed. I think staying inside and calling 911 was a fine way for you to handle the situation, OP.

Oh, ETA: I know you couldn’t find out any info about the process server. But if I thought for a second one of my process servers was out banging on doors in the middle of the night scaring people to death I’d never use him again. And I’d certainly appreciate knowing about it![/QUOTE]

I will bet that when this case is solved, you will find that it was some sort of set-up.

For instance, you are a horse owner. If I wanted to kill you, what easier way than to do something to your horse barn that would cause you to come running out of the house thinking of nothing except how important it is to solve the problem, but not something such a big deal that the fire department and the cops come immediately.

I suspect that your neighbor has a well and maybe a pump house some distance from the house.

So shut down the electricity to the pump house, open an outside spigot and wait.

If someone is out to get you, you really have all of the cards stacked against you and if you make it, it is just luck. Even the mob could not protect themselves against ambush.

But that is not the same thing as the ordinary crime of opportunity, which is what many of us will experience.

[morganpony86]

Lots of good and varied suggestions on here.

I would’ve done similar. Call the cops, and also call the neighbors who have guns (3 on all 3 sides of our property). I am certain they would head right over within seconds. And one is an older grandpa-like gentleman who I wouldn’t be surprised if he shot before asking questions. DH & I have discussed getting our own gun, mostly for protection of our animals against wildlife (multiple close calls with opossums, skunks, venomous snakes, and feral dog packs), but we haven’t committed yet due to reservations about guns in general.

@Pennywell Bay;7783785

PLus they know “Who’s that” said in a whisper = go nuts and they do.

Tell me how you trained this! We recently lost our two guard dogs (both at only 6 years old, one to an undiagnosed heart condition, another to aggressive cancer) and we’re realizing how much we relied on them. They had vicious barks and always knew when the weird noise was “real” vs just a barn cat outside the door and responded very well to me. When I was sketched, they knew and went ballistic.

Our new puppy (border collie/G.Shep mix; 8 months old) has recently started acting like a potential great guard dog. I’d love to teach him this trick of a subtle command to go nuts.

[Calamber]

If you had been home you could have just told him he had the wrong house. I don’t quite understand the fear? Because he was walking about a house, which, he probably did know was deserted hence being there in the dark with a flashlight, of course he would knock on the door just to be sure. As far as arming yourself, my father, who was a police officer in Baltimore, told me if I decided to arm myself and ever needed the gun I better be prepared to shoot to kill. I decided I did not want to kill, and have lived in isolated areas a lot with no problems yet and I am 58 years old. I did have one scare but that was because at the time there was a sniper running around the DC beltway area in a white van and the damned animal control officer came up my unlit driveway in a white van at pitch dark looking to tell me about the status of his unsuccessful efforts to trap a wolf hybrid. I did have the gun handy but not in my hand because I knew my buddy Bowser was out there standing behind him, (which he did not know).

[pAin_t_Misbehavin]

I’m sure you’re right, cssutton. The guys who attacked my neighbor thought they’d make off with his take for the night, and they knew how to lure him outside by shutting off his water. He wouldn’t want his well pump burning up, so would go out to check it.

[QUOTE=cssutton;7785168]

If someone is out to get you, you really have all of the cards stacked against you and if you make it, it is just luck. Even the mob could not protect themselves against ambush.

But that is not the same thing as the ordinary crime of opportunity, which is what many of us will experience.[/QUOTE]

The crime of opportunity in this case could’ve been, although thankfully wasn’t, one of those push-in robberies one hears about. For people wondering why the OP was afraid, I imagine that’s why. We’ve had a rash of them around here in the past few years. Some have been successfully repelled by a homeowner with a gun.

Me, I’ll have to rely on other means if it comes to it, God forbid. I also have someone in my house who can’t be around firearms, though for different reasons than the OP’s. I installed one of those monitored alarm systems you mentioned, and it has a panic button on it that I can press without lighting anything up. I also keep a pack of four big loud dogs loose in the house all the time. And a four-inch lockblade in my pocket, if all else fails.

[Graymaresrule]

OP said there were lights on in the barn. She went into the house and probably turned on more lights. Why would he think the property was deserted?

[wendy]

well, he’s a process server. I believe they often have to deliver things to people who don’t want to receive them so they probably behave in ways that aren’t quite normal. Check for the exits before knocking and so forth.

as to the guns, look at the statistics- people who own guns are much more likely to die from their own gun than they are to benefit in any way from owning it. Having a gun in the house is a very bad idea. Concealed carry is one of the worst ideas I have ever heard- fruit loops walking around looking for someone to shoot. Normal people have no desire to carry concealed weapons around. And before you go on about all the training those people get, a teacher with a concealed weapons permit recently managed to shoot herself in a school full of kids. Luckily she didn’t hit a kid, but obviously it’s only a matter of time before that happens.

[headsupheelsdown]

If your burly guy neighbors hadn’t happened to notice the guy in your yard, you could have also scared off the trespasser and drawn the attention of your neighbors by setting off the panic alarm on your car… or even better both your and your Mom’s cars…

I also think that the “my phone is broken” that the process server was sketchy… and ten o’clock is really late. Dark enough to use a flashlight and not even completely sure that he had the correct address? What professional process server would go out on a job without the ability to call for help?

[Graymaresrule]

[QUOTE=wendy;7785482]
well, he’s a process server. I believe they often have to deliver things to people who don’t want to receive them so they probably behave in ways that aren’t quite normal. Check for the exits before knocking and so forth.

as to the guns, look at the statistics- people who own guns are much more likely to die from their own gun than they are to benefit in any way from owning it. Having a gun in the house is a very bad idea. Concealed carry is one of the worst ideas I have ever heard- fruit loops walking around looking for someone to shoot. Normal people have no desire to carry concealed weapons around. And before you go on about all the training those people get, a teacher with a concealed weapons permit recently managed to shoot herself in a school full of kids. Luckily she didn’t hit a kid, but obviously it’s only a matter of time before that happens.[/QUOTE]
In VA there are several ways to get a CC permit. One of them is to complete an on line course, take an online test (as many times as you need to) print the online certificate and take that to your county offices. No need to ever show that you can shoot a gun

[Alex_and_Bodie_s_Mom]

[QUOTE=wendy;7784354]
Why was this scary? the guy wasn’t sneaking around or anything. He was knocking on doors and yelling and trying to find someone to talk to. Doesn’t sound like he was anything other than very lost or in need of some help. The only scary part was it happened after sunset? unfortunately that’s when people are most likely to get lost.

Why would your first response be to shoot him?

I’ve been in the guy’s shoes- car died in the middle of nowhere, no phone reception. Hiked to the nearest farm and tried to find someone. It was pitch-black and pouring rain. Luckily they didn’t shoot me or spray me with wasp spray.[/QUOTE]

Wow. I really don’t get this AT ALL.

He came on her property. He was shining a flashlight all over the yard, and then came to the house and pounded on the door. He never identified himself as a process server. He never identified himself in any way, shape, or form. (And frankly, I don’t buy that story either.) A person who needs help walks to the front door, rings the bell, then backs off and waits to see what happens.

When you’re a single woman alone in the country, even with neighbors relatively close by, you don’t trust ANYONE after dark. Case in point: the other night my dog was barking up a storm; I went outside and saw someone shining a flashlight around the garage. Freaked much? Yup. I shouted at him – turned out it was the idiot brother looking for his more idiot dog. But it could just as easily have been someone looking to steal stuff.

I recently went through training at my college to deal with shooting situations on campus. The first thing they tell you is this: if you can escape, do so. If you can lock down safely (and lockdowns just don’t work), do so. If you can’t, you fight back, because most people are looking for an easy target. Throw whatever you’ve got at them, keep them off balance, and attack if necessary. Believe me, that almost happened to my brother, and he knows I aced the training by disarming the guy in ten seconds flat, alone.

Sorry, but your post just sounds naive to me. In Kansas, you have a right to protect yourself and your property if you feel threatened. I take that very seriously. No one has a right to be on my property after dark. My first responsibility is not for that person. It is for myself and my animals.

OP – I think you should get an alarm system and a lock for your gate after dark. I also think you should press charges against the guy, and if he really is who he says he is, go after his employer as well.

Off my soapbox now, sorry.

[Graymaresrule]

[QUOTE=Alex and Bodie’s Mom;7785536]
Wow. I really don’t get this AT ALL.

He came on her property. He was shining a flashlight all over the yard, and then came to the house and pounded on the door. He never identified himself as a process server. He never identified himself in any way, shape, or form. (And frankly, I don’t buy that story either.) A person who needs help walks to the front door, rings the bell, then backs off and waits to see what happens.

When you’re a single woman alone in the country, even with neighbors relatively close by, you don’t trust ANYONE after dark. Case in point: the other night my dog was barking up a storm; I went outside and saw someone shining a flashlight around the garage. Freaked much? Yup. I shouted at him – turned out it was the idiot brother looking for his more idiot dog. But it could just as easily have been someone looking to steal stuff.

I recently went through training at my college to deal with shooting situations on campus. The first thing they tell you is this: if you can escape, do so. If you can lock down safely (and lockdowns just don’t work), do so. If you can’t, you fight back, because most people are looking for an easy target. Throw whatever you’ve got at them, keep them off balance, and attack if necessary. Believe me, that almost happened to my brother, and he knows I aced the training by disarming the guy in ten seconds flat, alone.

Sorry, but your post just sounds naive to me. In Kansas, you have a right to protect yourself and your property if you feel threatened. I take that very seriously. No one has a right to be on my property after dark. My first responsibility is not for that person. It is for myself and my animals.

OP – I think you should get an alarm system and a lock for your gate after dark. I also think you should press charges against the guy, and if he really is who he says he is, go after his employer as well.

Off my soapbox now, sorry.[/QUOTE]
Within limits http://www.kansas.com/news/article1089402.html

[onthebit]

[QUOTE=myrna;7784044]
dogs yes,big neighbor yes.911 yes.gun no way,but i am a canadian.won’t have a gun in the house.[/QUOTE]

Mr. Onthebit is Canadian and when we married and he moved here (to the U.S.) he had about 30 rifles. Maybe he and his friends are just oddball Canadians but they ALL have guns in their homes.