When and why did this frame go out of style?

Disclaimer: I mostly am from the H/J world, though I’ve ridden and trained lower-level dressage on and off. I’m not being critical of dressage, just hoping for an interesting and informative discussion.

I think this positioning of the horse’s head and neck is so much more beautiful (and more comfortable/natural looking) than the on-the-vertical (which usually is actually behind the vertical) headsets we see at the highest levels of dressage today. The horse’s throatlatch is nice and open, its back is nicely activated, and it isn’t resisting the bit. Why isn’t this what modern dressage strives for?

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/296393219201770014/

0526663B-AC64-4A05-8054-96A9C6DE12F9.jpeg

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Unfortunately, when I click on your link the horse’s head is cut off so the positioning is not visible. However, the current BTV trend is just a way to have the horse appear to be in a correct weight bearing posture that is much easier than actually having the horse in a correct weight bearing posture.

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OP, let me lay it out for you. It comes in a succession of logical pieces:

You have to look at the orientation of the horse’s ribcage, his carcass, basically. Is that tilted uphill? How uphill? Can you see his withers being higher than his croup? Can you see his croup being lowered? Is rib cage flat? Is it even downhill?

The neck–let’s say from the base where it comes out of his shoulders to just about his throatlatch— have to be in a position that relate to the orientation of his rib cage. That’s it. The orientation of the rib cage is the only reason the position of the neck matters.

The throat latch-- that last final hinge at the top of the neck-- also doesn’t matter, except as it tends to stay open or closed in a way that is determined by the rest of the neck… and that is determined by whether or not the horse is lifting the front of his ribcage and using the base of his neck to help do that.

For these reasons, it doesn’t matter that we can’t see the head of the horse in the picture. You can infer much of what you need by seeing the back 3/4s of that horse’s body. You can see him squatting and holding the front of his body up. His neck comes out of his shoulder close to the vertical because, it’s biomechanically easier for him to draw that heavy skull hanging out there off the end of his neck in toward his center of gravity, which has rocked up and back from where it usually is.

To consider the problem of how and why a horse is Behind the Vertical or not, compare the positions of his ribcage, to the base of his neck, to his throat latch (open or closed)/his forehead, when he is standing still, if he were the winning hunter at the trot or canter in the hack, and if he were an upper-level dressage horse in collection. When he is standing still, every horse will have his throat latch reasonably open, or as many degrees open as is natural for him, given the shape and orientation of his neck to his shoulder. That varies with the purpose for which the horse has been bred, or course.

While a horse is standing still and when his neck is closer to the “natural degree of horizontalness” his neck was bred for, he is not using quite so much muscular energy to hold his head where it is. Rather, the nuchal ligament is more efficiently doing that mechanical work. The more we (correctly) ask a horse to recruit the muscles in his lower neck, thoracic sling and bas to lift the front of his rib cage, the more we are asking him to use muscle, rather than ligament to hold up his rather heavy skull positioned way out from his center of gravity. It takes time to build that postural strength.

In the correctly-trained horse who is this up-hill, his throat latch will be closed for these biomechanical reasons. The rider will not have pulled the horse’s head in toward his chest. If you see horses ridden in curb bits with loose reins, or horses rearing, notice that they close their throat latches.

A very good hunter in a hack will also raise his ribcage and travel in an “uphill” posture. But he will not be squatting, as is the horse in the picture. Rather, he’s using his hind end to push out, not just up. In this posture and doing that job, his neck comes out of his shoulder a bit up and you can see the muscling of his lower trapezius (ahead of the withers) and crest doing some work. But his throat latch is open because his center of gravity, while higher than it is when he is standing still, has not moved backward significantly. Biomechanically, it follows, he has no reason to close his throat latch and draw his head in.

The money shots:

What people are (rightly) complaining about with the BTV stuff in dressage is a horse whose head has been artificially pulled in for the relatively low- and forward position of his center of gravity. Another way of saying this is that the lower-level horse, ridden with a less extremely uphill and compressed posture is being ridden with his neck held that way.

A third way to put this is that they are using the trying to create an orientation of the ribcage by, in part, controlling the position of the head. And here’s a dirty little secret based on a biomechanical truth: Because the horse uses his heavy skull out at the end of his neck as a counterweight to his hind end, the laws of physics mean that you can influence his posture by controlling where he puts his head. That’s a huge reason for just about every riding discipline out there caring about head, neck and throat latch positions. IMO, the very best, horse-friendly and “purist” horsemen ride to create uphill posture first. The feel and control the body from the shoulders back and let the horse put his head anywhere he finds convenient for the level of collection or extension he’s doing.

The other money shot is that looking at a horse, you should not mistake “superficial” for the “deep.” What counts is the horse’s posture. Learn to see that. The position of the head and neck is follows from that in the horse who has “honest” biomechanics. What you are seeing when you notice something about the head and neck or BTV that doesn’t look right is incongruous biomechanics.

IMO, you are also watching a rider dig a very big training hole for themselves. Or you are seeing a horse who has been ridden that way for so long that he has learned to tuck his chin and leave his back low. That’s a hard problem to fix. That said, a momentary BTV moment in a horse isn’t a problem. Rather, it’s an expression of muscle fatigue in the postural muscles. It should go away as the horse gets stronger in his body and can hold himself in the uphill position (or even more uphill) for longer periods of time. But if I’m riding a horse who gets BTV and stays there, I know I have to give him a break. There is no good muscle to be built with a horse who is continuously cruising around BTV.

Hope this helps.

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BTW, all y’all. I don’t need to see the whole head up to the forehead. I can see from the rest of the horse’s posture, his throatlatch and cheek that his forehead is not tilting down.

OP, you inadvertantly picked a picture of a very advanced, very collected horse whose throat latch is closed to a correct degree to tell us how bad and unnatural Behind The Vertical is!

I am a hunter rider, too. And so I’ll put this to you: Find a still of a horse rocking back to jump a fence. He’s definitely in an uphill posture there, just as “squatting” as a grand prix horse in a canter pirouette. Look at his throat latch and tell me it’s not plenty closed. And his rider will have a loop in the reins. What you are seeing is biomechanics in play.

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My utter contempt for Pinterest links has spurred me to venture out of lurker status and post a link to the actual image in question:

https://i.pinimg.com/236x/80/f6/1f/80f61fff1ac653d41759cab7c78ef0f2--school-looks-old-school.jpg

Pinterest is terrible. The horse is nice.

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Vindicated! The throat latch is open and the horse’s nose is ahead of the vertical an appropriate tad.

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I’m super confused. Did she edit her post? I thought she said she LIKED that picture and wondered why current horses no longer are ridden that way. Not that she found fault with the Kyra Kyrklund picture.

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No. The last paragraph is not written clearly. It refers to “the” horse which I took to mean, “horses in general,” not the horse below in the picture particular. There is no explaining caption of the picture.

If I’m wrong, let me know! But the OP didn’t pick the worst picture possible of a modern dressage horse being BTV.

Actually, I think the question was, “when and why did this frame go out of style?” I can understand the confusion, because then the conversation turned to modern competitive dressage…

I am a hunter rider, too. And so I’ll put this to you: Find a still of a horse rocking back to jump a fence. He’s definitely in an uphill posture there, just as “squatting” as a grand prix horse in a canter pirouette. Look at his throat latch and tell me it’s not plenty closed. And his rider will have a loop in the reins. What you are seeing is biomechanics in play.

I think jumping (and many other “uphill” postures) are a little different from the kind of controlled collection we want in dressage, because the horse lifts his front end to get over a jump as much from using his front legs to “bounce” his front end up, as from sitting and using his topline muscles to lift his front end.

A horse who can piaffe should be able to show a few moments of levade fairly easily, which I think is a good test of whether the horse has a more level balance and is bouncing from one leg to another (with the hind legs bouncing as high as the fronts) or has an uphill balance and has actually shifted his weight to his hindquarters.

Once that is established (that the horse really has shifted enough weight to his hinds to produce a bit of levade) then we can see where his head and neck need to be to do that.

But as long as we’re looking at horses who haven’t actually shifted their weight back enough to lift their forehands in a controlled manner, then I think we are going to see a lot of dropped polls and btv postures.

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MVP has a very clear explanation.

OP, I hope it’s clear from that explanation that calling a dressage horse posture a “frame” is part of the problem that focuses entirely on head carriage.

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I thought “frame” could also be used to describe the whole horse?

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Agreed that focusing on a frame is a problem, but i also see where for a non dressage rider it is an obvious difference

The short answer of the why has two parts:

  1. Some riders had trouble controlling extra hot horses and used overbending to get control, then went out and won because they were spectacular horses despite that. Of course popular fashion follows winners.
  2. FEI started to include an emphasis on “submission” and it reached down the levels. This has shown up in judging, with steadiness rewarded, and head flipping which can happen when a horse is ridden in front of the vertical getting dinged more harshly as a lack of submission than the more subtle at a glance tucking behind the vertical of a horse who is held tightly.

Add in that there are more spectacularly bred horses out there, and that judges are instructed to include the quality of gaits when scoring each movement on a test, but that most often flash rather than correctness is what is scored, and competition rewards holding a frame and pushing a horse forward while doing so, which results in more flash and less of the correctness described in this thread.

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The word “frame” gives competent dressage riders the heebie geebies because it is most often used by people who focus on the overall look of the horse instead of on its balance and functionality.

Of course there are lots of bad dressage riders out there who don’t use the word “frame” but say “get him round” meaning exactly the same thing, emphasis on head carriage. I get to watch out of the corner of my eye :slight_smile: a whole group of crap lower level dressage trainers and riders whose number one goal even on a green horse is to get the neck “round” meaning BTV and broken at the 3rd vertebrae.

Anyhow I’m suggesting ditch the word frame and start to look at the overall balance of the horse and especially what the hind end is doing.

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There is an entire Facebook group (or maybe dozens of them) devoted to sharing pictures and asking just that question, with answers usually coming from people who think everything about “modern dressage” is abusive.

I don’t think an open throatlatch is at all “unfashionable” in dressage and relaxation is still rewarded over tension. What is unfashionable is just focusing on head position and not looking at whether the back and withers are lifted, whether the hocks are lowered and whether the hind leg is stepping under vs trailing out behind.

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Correct. I like the horse in the picture I posted. That’s what I was referring to when I said “the horse.”

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Thanks. I thought that was a clear and helpful addition to this thread.

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Oops, sorry! I misread your last paragraph.

MVP, I understand biomechanically what you’re saying, which is what prompted my question. WHY have big-name riders moved away from the classically correct (and biomechanically correct) way of carriage? Is it driven by judges? By “short cuts”? It just doesn’t make sense to me

Now that you can see the picture, would you say this horse’s throatlatch is closed? I would call this quite an open throatlatch (relative to what we currently see in GP dressage…).

edited for typos.

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I just attached the image to my original post!

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No, it wasn’t inadvertent. I chose this horse because I think it is correct.