When and why did this frame go out of style?

[wannabedvm]

@chicken_derby

My utter contempt for Pinterest links has spurred me to venture out of lurker status and post a link to the actual image in question:

https://i.pinimg.com/236x/80/f6/1f/80f61fff1ac653d41759cab7c78ef0f2--school-looks-old-school.jpg

Pinterest is terrible. The horse is nice.

Thanks didn’t realize Pinterest links were problematic.

[wannabedvm]

@mvp

No. The last paragraph is not written clearly. It refers to “the” horse which I took to mean, “horses in general,” not the horse below in the picture particular. There is no explaining caption of the picture.

If I’m wrong, let me know! But the OP didn’t pick the worst picture possible of a modern dressage horse being BTV.

“The horse” was referring to the horse in the picture, not horses in general. I think it makes sense when taken with the title “THIS FRAME” (referring to the picture I posted).

edit: Nvm, MVP. Just saw you already realized this!

[wannabedvm]

@netg

Agreed that focusing on a frame is a problem, but i also see where for a non dressage rider it is an obvious difference

The short answer of the why has two parts:

1. Some riders had trouble controlling extra hot horses and used overbending to get control, then went out and won because they were spectacular horses despite that. Of course popular fashion follows winners.
2. FEI started to include an emphasis on “submission” and it reached down the levels. This has shown up in judging, with steadiness rewarded, and head flipping which can happen when a horse is ridden in front of the vertical getting dinged more harshly as a lack of submission than the more subtle at a glance tucking behind the vertical of a horse who is held tightly.

Add in that there are more spectacularly bred horses out there, and that judges are instructed to include the quality of gaits when scoring each movement on a test, but that most often flash rather than correctness is what is scored, and competition rewards holding a frame and pushing a horse forward while doing so, which results in more flash and less of the correctness described in this thread.

Thank you! Exactly the answer I was hoping for. So, how do we fix it?

[wannabedvm]

@BigMama1

There is an entire Facebook group (or maybe dozens of them) devoted to sharing pictures and asking just that question, with answers usually coming from people who think everything about “modern dressage” is abusive.

I don’t think an open throatlatch is at all “unfashionable” in dressage and relaxation is still rewarded over tension. What is unfashionable is just focusing on head position and not looking at whether the back and withers are lifted, whether the hocks are lowered and whether the hind leg is stepping under vs trailing out behind.

Am I missing just missing the top FEI horses that look like this? Because I haven’t seen any…

[Scribbler]

@wannabedvm

Am I missing just missing the top FEI horses that look like this? Because I haven’t seen any…

Are you looking at the whole horse and not just the head?

The faults of modern dressage have been preVtty thoroughly hashed over on COTH. There are several different camps of opinion but at this point we are all a bit exhausted by the topic.

I will add however that elements of scoring in modern dressage competition favor big gaits over collection in scoring compared to say 60 years ago, and the WB is now the ideal type not a Lipizanner or Iberian. So tactics that throw the horse on the forehand but also produce flashy front legs are rewarded. People are even riding harness horses in dressage because the big trot is so important. So you need to look at the fact that it’s a substantially different discipline than in the 195Os.

[wannabedvm]

@Scribbler

Are you looking at the whole horse and not just the head?

This seems to imply that you think the modern on/behind the vertical look is required to get an overall correct horse. Would an otherwise correct horse that today is on the vertical with suddenly become incorrect in the rest of its body as a result of having a slightly more forward head? I have trouble believing that, but I could be wrong.

@Scribbler

The faults of modern dressage have been preVtty thoroughly hashed over on COTH. There are several different camps of opinion but at this point we are all a bit exhausted by the topic.

Feel free to ignore my post

[Sunsets]

@wannabedvm

Am I missing just missing the top FEI horses that look like this? Because I haven’t seen any…

Well, if you just look at head and throatlatch position, no you usually don’t. But here’s Valegro in a nice piaffe and, honestly, I think he’s just built to balance like this. He’s certainly got the sit and the lift to his withers. And Charlotte is a pretty tactful rider, IMHO.

[Scribbler]

@wannabedvm

This seems to imply that you think the modern on/behind the vertical look is required to get an overall correct horse. Would an otherwise correct horse that today is on the vertical with suddenly become incorrect in the rest of its body as a result of having a slightly more forward head? I have trouble believing that, but I could be wrong.

Feel free to ignore my post

No. I said that in today’s competition flashy gaits are rewarded and these can be exaggerated by throwing the horse on the forehand so that the front legs have much more mobility and the hind legs trail. You can see this done in saddle seat as well as dressage. I said that current scoring rules reward big leg action and provide less incentive to get a horse collected for an excellent piaffe or pirouette. I said nothing about this being “correct.” I said it was rewarded by current judging rules.

Look at the horses and see if the front legs and back legs are moving equal distances or stride lengths (which is traditionally correct) or if the front legs are moving much more than the hind legs ( as in saddle seat).

I have seen horses move correctly and be on the vertical or even a bit BTV, but too much BTV does throw them on the forehand.

Anyhow stop looking at the head and look at how the horse is using its body.

[alibi_18]

The good ol’ time… :rolleyes:

Thank god rules were invented since that time.

As for Alherich and Klimke, check the 1984 Los Angeles Olympics - very overbent piaffe. Maybe it started with this pair since they won?!

[wannabedvm]

@Scribbler

No. I said that in today’s competition flashy gaits are rewarded and these can be exaggerated by throwing the horse on the forehand so that the front legs have much more mobility and the hind legs trail. You can see this done in saddle seat as well as dressage. I said that current scoring rules reward big leg action and provide less incentive to get a horse collected for an excellent piaffe or pirouette. I said nothing about this being “correct.” I said it was rewarded by current judging rules.

Look at the horses and see if the front legs and back legs are moving equal distances or stride lengths (which is traditionally correct) or if the front legs are moving much more than the hind legs ( as in saddle seat).

I have seen horses move correctly and be on the vertical or even a bit BTV, but too much BTV does throw them on the forehand.

Anyhow stop looking at the head and look at how the horse is using its body.

You asked me if I am “looking at the whole horse and not just the head?” Which implies that the being on/behind the vertical doesn’t matter as long as the rest of the horse is correct.

I do look at how the horse is using its body; you don’t need to tell me to do that. Case in point: read my original post.

[wannabedvm]

@alibi_18

The good ol’ time… :rolleyes:

Thank god rules were invented since that time.

As for Alherich and Klimke, check the 1984 Los Angeles Olympics - very overbent piaffe. Maybe it started with this pair since they won?!

What rules do you mean?

[ladyj79]

Yawn.

[Texel]

@alibi_18

The good ol’ time… :rolleyes:

Thank god rules were invented since that time.

As for Alherich and Klimke, check the 1984 Los Angeles Olympics - very overbent piaffe. Maybe it started with this pair since they won?!

You are always so angry. Who hurt you?

[wannabedvm]

@ladyj79

Yawn.

Feel free to move along; why waste your time responding?

[Scribbler]

@wannabedvm

You asked me if I am “looking at the whole horse and not just the head?” Which implies that the being on/behind the vertical doesn’t matter as long as the rest of the horse is correct.

I do look at how the horse is using its body; you don’t need to tell me to do that. Case in point: read my original post.

If the horse is using its body correctly the head can be in a range of positions. Not in any position but in a range of positions. If the horse is using its body incorrectly then it doesn’t matter where the head is. Fix the body first. In other words discussing the head is short hand for discussing other problems but really is not of that much use.

And I say that as someone riding in a program where we do not go BTV.

[GraceLikeRain]

I think it is also super important to recognize that horse has a cresty chonky neck with one heck of a thick throatlatch and not a lot of neck. There really isn’t enough neck and clearance for the horse to be on the vertical, much less behind it. Compare that to a typical modern horse with a much cleaner throat attachment and a lot more neck. If you put that exact rider on a modern WB and they would likely have moments of on the vertical/BTV. They are horses not machines. It isn’t like there has been this profound loss in training talent or everyone is pulling their horse behind the bit.

I struggle to understand the emotional attachment to the beloved “old dressage” capture in photographs and grainy photos. We are breeding bigger, leggier, and more powerful athletes. We also have high quality video capabilities and can watch rides in slow motion. There are programs with four year olds who demonstrate more sit, push, and cadence at 30 days under saddle than some of these grand prix horses of the past with staccato earthbound gaits.

Apples and oranges.

[AZ_TD]

Funny that a hunter/jumper is bringing up this issue, that has been debated endlessly on the COTH forums, so what is the purpose?

[ladyj79]

@AZ TD

Funny that a hunter/jumper is bringing up this issue, that has been debated endlessly on the COTH forums, so what is the purpose?

To point out again that dressage is for meanies!!! And really, all modern horse sport. Again, yawn. As someone pointed out above there’s a whole very dedicated facebook page for this…position.

[Scribbler]

@AZ TD

Funny that a hunter/jumper is bringing up this issue, that has been debated endlessly on the COTH forums, so what is the purpose?

Actually a few years back OP was identifying as a dressage rider, on a Gypsy Vanner stallion I think.

https://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/forum/discussion-forums/eventing/10045123-conditioning-on-packed-dirt-roads

[mvp]

@ladyj79

To point out again that dressage is for meanies!!! And really, all modern horse sport. Again, yawn. As someone pointed out above there’s a whole very dedicated facebook page for this…position.

Well… this and your first “yawn” comment do the work of showing everyone that DQs are meanies, now don’t they?

Why?

And another thing…