(Rant continued… because I suck at double quoting)
You know what? Any COTHer gets to bring up whatever topic in whatever forum she wishes whenever. Not everyone has been here, reading these “debates” since the beginning of COTH. If you and Xenophon think y’all have finished off the topic, don’t open the thread! But you don’t need to be mean or limit anyone else’s education/entertainment for your own purposes.
Let’s keep 'er going…
And the snottiness continues. Look, we all live in this glass house of anonymity. We adhere to a gentleman’s agreement about refraining from discovering anyone’s IRL identity because, in part we are trying to avoid the always shitty ad hominem attack. This comes close. Why does it matter what else a COTHer might have posted about?
I take posters at face value. I don’t look for the possibility that someone is a troll and then post as much. (I can’t figure out why both people would waste their own time this way.). If I don’t want to helpfully engage in a thread, I scroll on by. Anyone can choose this pacific and enjoyable strategy.
I only posted this three-parter because dressage does have a reputation for being exclusionary and mean. This treatment of the OP continues that, and I’ll always try to snuff that crap out where and when I find it. That’s being a decent citizen of dressage world. It’s helping a lot of horses who, in this case, might be ridden better if someone happened to see this discussion and got a good, new idea… or any old idea re-explained in helpful terms for them, when they were looking for it. Surely you all don’t want to stand in the way of information that could help a horse, right?
In answer to your question: netg and others go a long way to explain this: We have bred more extravagant movers. More on that below, and changed our the way elements of a horse’s way of going and training are numerically weighted. More on that, too.
But I’d add that the “short cut” idea needs some refinement. As kande04 points out, there’s a difference between the temporary “squat” a jumping horse does, heck, even the incredible raising of the front end a cutting horse does while hie shoulders are below his croup, and the sustained, uphill posture we want in our finished dressage horse. It’s the difference between someone telling you to sit up straight for a photograph and to sit up straight through an hour long ceremony.
The big difference is the physical training it takes in order to produce that kind of isometric, postural strength that is not just a “burst” of muscular contraction as seen in the jumping horse or the cutting horse. IMO, it takes a heckuva long time to condition in that strength, leaving the education of the horse doing other movements and keeping the horse wiling to focus and try even as he gets very tired holding himself this way. There is no shortcut to this fitting up kind of work, save breeding into the horse the kind of geometry that makes this posture easy for him.
Quarter horses, of course, have been bred to produce a level of postural strength that exceeds that of, say, the Thoroughbred. A “modern type” (long-legged) and extravagant-moving warmblood has his biomechanical work cut out for him. He’s tall, heavy (so he’s got a high center of gravity) and he’s relatively slow-maturing. That means the baby warmblood has more skeleton and weight to move around and balance than he has muscle. If you asked, say, a 3-year-old WB to do what you regularly could ask a three-year-old QH to do, I think you’d break his body. That’s just my opinion; based on watching what young horses do and noting how traditions developed to train this or that type of horse tend to go; I don’t have data on that.
As with all horse endeavors, time is money. So the tippy-top in dressage are doing everything they can to shorten up the time it takes to get to Grand Prix. They aren’t all, or all the time, trying to do the impossible and shorten up the time it takes to build the postural strength. They ride well. They buy well. And they know that BTV is not to be desired but isn’t a mark of a serious problem when it’s temporary. And then they slip from that ideal in their riding and conditioning. This assumes, of course, tippy-top feel and competence in the rider. I think there are some folks out there who can see the shape of a horse’s body-- the frame you reference-- but are less adept at feeling degrees of really correct, sustainable uphill posture.
And, IMO, judging standards have contributed to the problem. The emphasis on gaits means buying the best mover you can. Being a good, extravagant mover as a young horse isn’t easy! You also need a bit of forward thinking and sensitivity at GP. And being that horse as a greenie is also not easy. So these forward-thinking, precariously-balanced babies can take some really skill to ride correctly. “Correctly” here, to me, means “without undue restraint of the head and neck.”
You also have the burden of the training tradition that has the rider help modify the horse’s posture and balance in his carcass by taking a very constant, direct, even dictatorial control of the position of his head. You can do this with a snaffle and contact in a way that you cannot do this with, say, a traditional hackamore and a spade bit. My opinion here gets way unorthodox, so take it with a grain of salt. I think the emphasis on “submission” comes out of the snaffle-based training program (and horses bred to fit into it); Northern Europe and the FEI have their version of what the Vaqueros have as well. Everybody has been doing their thing since the 18th century! It is not the case that no horse ever learns to carry himself uphill, to squat or push in turn without having a kind of contact with the rider’s hand that a dressage judge would praise. But, this very well-established training tradition in place, you will find a style of riding that risks having a horse “do the wrong thing” with his head, neck and body because his rider is given so much control of his head. When that goes wrong, you get problems like BTV and riders who, once the horse’s head is in but his back is still low, have to go to extremes in order to recruit the base of the neck in the way that has an effect on raising the front of his ribcage.
Again, I’d be happy with anyone-- instructor, judge, judging standards that only looked for the horse who was taught and conditioned to carry himself around in an uphill posture. And our species would certainly better movers, more graceful, powerful and agile if we, too, carried ourselves around always with the posture of ballet dancers, no?
This might be one of my favorite posts ever!
Yup. I have seen many post replies, not just in this thread, but a few others of snotty behavior, rude manners, supposition, etc.
I am sick to death of people implying that I am neglectful or abusive to my horse. You have no idea how much money, sleeplessness, and stress that animal has cost me and I have only had him since the beginning of the month.
The last horse I had was broke beyond repair when I got him and I knew his days were numbered, but could not let him go to the kill pen. I spent thousands in vet bills on a leased horse only to find out in the end that she had kissing spines and would never be able to do what I wanted to do.
I love my animals and have and will continue to live a life sparingly to give them the best.
Part of the reason people post here is for people with experience to speak up. But by being demeaning and snotty in replies, that level of experience comes across in a manner that leaves most of us with a bad taste in our mouth.
Sometimes the"level of experience" that you are referencing is not really a level of experience but an ability to efficiently use a keyboard to spout endless indications of only a superficial understanding of dressage. And some are not quite so anonymous as they infer. Leopards don’t change their spots and endless spouters never reform.:no:
The OP asked why that “frame” ( horses are really not framed) has gone out of style. As someone has previously stated, the word “frame” sets many teeth, mine included, on edge.:eek:
It truly has not! Properly engaged horses will always be in vogue, and will always be well placed.
Last year I spent two days at the warmup ring of one of the highest level international equestrian meets in Europe, after not having had such a transatlantic visit in a long time. With the exception of the fewest, the FEWEST riders (happy to name them if there’s interest) I saw all of them ride their brilliant horses way too low. Shockingly so. The most gifted horses on the planet were buried face-forward between their legs, staring at the ground. It’s been ten years since the peak of the rollkur debate surrounding Anky and Gal, and they both must be grinningly pleased to see their “system” — as Anky calls it in one manic demonstration clinic — still sadly perpetuated.
The discussion deserves to, needs to, continue. Our horses and young riders and readers deserve more than the above “Yawn” in a public forum. Civility in debate will always be most welcome.
For what it’s worth, I too am primarily a h/j rider. But I do feel that correct dressage is the foundation to all disciplines. I don’t spend a lot of time over here, but when I have time or if I have an issue I like to skim through the threads. It’s disheartening to come over here for advice or for a different perspective and see snarky remarks.
Actually I would be very interested if you would name the riders you saw riding correctly.
Now, now. One man’s “frame” is another man’s “through” or “recycled energy” or “round.”
Does “round” mean the neck only, or included a hind end that’s the other side of the “round” picture, those legs stepping up under the barrel well? Does “round” mean the neck curled but says nothing how it comes out of the base? Does it mean the neck is raised from the base? Or raised in the sense of being vertical?
You can find lots of metaphorical talk (which could make any neophyte to a field nuts), and you can find those terms in English, German, French and Spanish, each of which seems to perfectly describe a concept or feeling of action… or really sucks that the job of language according to another person.
It’s better not to waste one’s energy looking down on the terms used by another discipline.
The competitions that I was referring to were CDI4*, CSI4*, CCI4* and CCi4*. We took photos and videos but can’t find them at the moment (buried on last year’s phone) but will look for them. The riders that stood out sky-high positively at the warm-ups, which was open to the public, and then, not surprisingly, in their tests, were Ingrid Klimke and Helen Langehanenberg. The rider that shocked the most, not just me but my lifelong dressage friends as well, was Isabell Werth.
Klimke won the Kür on Franziskus with timeless ease, and Werth won the Special with labored automation. Klimke rides like a gifted feather, Werth rides like a construction worker. The jumpers rode their horses unabashedly LDR, same with the eventers in their dressage warmups. I hadn’t seen top-level European 4* competitions in several years LIVE, and felt eye-opened. Photos to come, if I find them.
I don’t believe in LDR as a means of engaging the horse’s back. The practice of a low and very tight head and neck carriage, with the horse’s eyes forced down to the ground, as a way of inspiring any of kind of stretch of any kind of muscle group anywhere in the body is ill-fated and has to end. If the judges can’t end it, for whatever reason, after all the videos that have surfaced, then the rising amateurs have to, on behalf of our dear horses — speak up.
Food for continued thought:
CHIO Aachen 2018:
https://youtu.be/bbE3wqXxmmk
Ingrid Klimke:
https://youtu.be/98v8_X4qGuk
https://youtu.be/zNwLtrekpQ4
Isabel Werth:
https://youtu.be/emstGni7Rmg
Patrik Kittel:
https://youtu.be/Zo8W2fUjdM4
I’ve seen both women ride, in person, including warmups. They are both superb. I’m sorry you find Werth “like a construction worker.” That has certainly never been my impression of the most decorated Olympic equestrian of all time.
So then you would consider this style of riding to be “sympathetic” to the horse?
https://youtu.be/emstGni7Rmg
I think that a lot of people on coth really hate horse sport.
That’s ok, I just dont know why they frequent coth, which is a publication dedicated to horse sport.
And I think a lot of people see what they want to see, and dont understand or appreciate sport in general.
The FEI has removed their pay wall, so there are many 2019 dressage competitions to watch instead of looking at old clips (though some of the older competitions are fun to watch as well.)
I won’t pay for FEI TV (been there done that) so there are a few World Cup qualifiers that I haven’t seen. Hours worth!
Some can also be seen on the FEI You Tube channel. https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=fei+dressage+world+cup+2019
Here is a link to their main You Tube channel that has competition and training videos not only for Dressage.
https://www.youtube.com/user/feichannel
Ok, sure. But the thing is, someone can “dislike” a top rider or choose their favorite and this doesn’t mean that they hate or don’t appreciate horse sport. This happens in other sports all the time. People are passionate about the sport but maybe they have a favorite player or dislike a certain player even though their skills and scores make them a top competitor.
Werth is at the top of this sport, but she’s not my favorite rider. I’m not always so crazy about her. Personal opinion. This doesn’t mean that I don’t understand or appreciate the sport.
As for the attitudes on here and why people frequent COTH, I have no idea. It’s downright savage in here at times and full of seemingly (but perhaps not) miserable individuals with agendas that I don’t personally understand, but everyone has their opinion I suppose.
Because Sayre’s Law, summarized this way:
“In any dispute the intensity of feeling is inversely proportional to the value of the issues at stake.”
It was also meant to explain why internecine fights in universities are so especially intense. Now that any DQ reading this knows it, she has a choice about how to proceed:
Here’s my footnote, yo: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayre’s_law
Ah, of course. As someone with experience in Academia I understand this completely 😂
I think we have learned a lot in 25 years about horse biomechanics and what is helpful / harmful. I don’t like what is shown in the video, and we now know such riding for extended periods is damaging to the horse’s spine. However, we did not know that then and this horse appears soft and willing, not being forced into anything, and rewarded with frequent pats and breaks. Times change and when we know better we do better.
That being said, a small amount of overstretching / over flexing is not harmful. This is how athletes in every sport train. My daughter is a competitive dancer and maybe you would cringe to see them doing “over splits” with their feet on raised blocks to increase their flexibility. But nobody is holding them or forcing them into that position. Same with over flexing a horse for a few steps at a time- entirely different than pulling their nose into the chest and holding it there.
The OP came here with a preconceived notion - that what she perceived as a correct “frame” is no linger in style. She’s gotten some very good answers about why that is not necessarily true.
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