When and why did this frame go out of style?

[mvp]

@BigMama1

I think we have learned a lot in 25 years about horse biomechanics and what is helpful / harmful. I don’t like what is shown in the video, and we now know such riding for extended periods is damaging to the horse’s spine. However, we did not know that then and this horse appears soft and willing, not being forced into anything, and rewarded with frequent pats and breaks. Times change and when we know better we do better.

That being said, a small amount of overstretching / over flexing is not harmful. This is how athletes in every sport train. My daughter is a competitive dancer and maybe you would cringe to see them doing “over splits” with their feet on raised blocks to increase their flexibility. But nobody is holding them or forcing them into that position. Same with over flexing a horse for a few steps at a time- entirely different than pulling their nose into the chest and holding it there.

The OP came here with a preconceived notion - that what she perceived as a correct “frame” is no linger in style. She’s gotten some very good answers about why that is not necessarily true.

I will make few bets:

1. Western horses (especially in warm-up rings and while being schooled, similar to what you see in the Werth video) have been asked to go around in that posture for more than 25 years.

2. They, too, are ridden with pats and breaks and-- certainly-- with some loose reins.

3. If this ride were being given by a guy in Western tack in American schooling ring-- 25 years ago or today-- you dressagists would come down hard on the rider.

I disagree that no one knew 25 years ago that this was hard on horses.

Also, FWIW, Bill Woods’ commentary about the horse being ok in his work-- getting pats and breaks “not being against” Werth caused me a tad of alarm. A very good Western show horse is similarly tolerant and workmanlike in just continuing to show up and show up and show up throughout the ride.

IMO, those horses have been bred for their kind, cooperative nature. I think WB’s have, too. Also I think it’s fair to say that the WB of today, on average, has been bred with more TB and lightness and spark in him; the docility thing might not be so easy and he’ll be more expressive. Werth’s horse looks like a campaigner who has a very good work ethic. AQHA show horses have the same.

But! Having watched that kind, trying nature of the AQHA be used against him as he’s ridden this way, I guess I’m primed to see similarities to the Werth video and to be critical.

[mvp]

@BigMama1

That being said, a small amount of overstretching / over flexing is not harmful. This is how athletes in every sport train. My daughter is a competitive dancer and maybe you would cringe to see them doing “over splits” with their feet on raised blocks to increase their flexibility. But nobody is holding them or forcing them into that position. Same with over flexing a horse for a few steps at a time- entirely different than pulling their nose into the chest and holding it there.

The OP came here with a preconceived notion - that what she perceived as a correct “frame” is no linger in style. She’s gotten some very good answers about why that is not necessarily true.

And another thing! Take x-rays of a 40-year-old ballerina and see if she’d pass your PPE. I’m not an expert, so I’ll defer to your knowledge how dancing, but I’m not sure that the repetition of hyperextension of joints in the name of flexibility isn’t harmful.

[SonnysMom]

@pluvinel

So then you would consider this style of riding to be “sympathetic” to the horse?
https://youtu.be/emstGni7Rmg

This is 25 years ago. My guess is most of us did something or said things 25 years ago that might make us cringe now. She isn’t wearing a helmet. Wasn’t she one of the first BNRs to start wearing a helmet regularly in competition? Well before most upper level riders did or felt pressure to wear anything other than a top hat. Attitudes change. I think that if you need to go back 25 years to prove a point that is stretching things.

On the other hand she did give him a nice pat. Nothing about her riding was done in anger. It was very consistent and methodical.

I am a low level rider. On days that my horse comes out distracted my trainer has me put him in a tighter frame a little quicker. On days were he comes out mentally ready to work we warm up a bit differently and start in a softer frame. I ride the horse I have that day. He gets the benefit of the softer ride when he is not likely to take advantage. Other times if I ride him in the softer frame he will rubber neck, be distracted and be more likely to be spooky and possibly plant my LL ass in the dirt. Sometimes I need to ride him in a more collected frame to keep his focus on me and not provide him the opportunity to be an idiot and pretend to spook at things he has seen every single ride for the last 3 years in his home ring.
Therefore I can see instances in a tense warm-up environment that a rider may not ride is the most ideal frame. There are times that you cannot be 100% tactful. Maybe that is the frame she needed for a fit horse on that day to keep him focused on her and not being a freight train.

My horse had gotten into a habit of breaking from a canter to the trot. I would carefully get him balanced and back on the bit before picking the canter back up. There came a point that my trainer just wanted me to boot him back up to the canter. For that moment she didn’t care if the transition was ugly. I was being nice but indirectly was rewarding him for being disobedient and breaking gait. Sometimes it needs to be ugly for a brief period to get the point across and get the job done. Sometimes being subtle and perfect doesn’t work. By ugly I don’t mean abusive.

I don’t think that you can ride and be 100% sympathetic to the horse 100% of the time. If that were the case none of us would ever ride or compete. How is having a metal bit in the mouth sympathetic? how about a whip/crop? how about spurs?
Lets move that to the ground- what about a chain shank, lip chain or twitch? So is a lip chain only okay for treating an injury without having to drug every time? What about loading on a trailer to get them home? What about pulling a mane? Or loading in a gate to race? Or hand walking during rehab? One horse at the barn needed a lip chain for daily turn-out so he wouldn’t rear and strike. Where is that line? Do I like using a lip chain? Nope but sometimes it needs to be done to get the job done. Do I consider a chain shank over the nose to lead a horse sympathetic to the horse- not really but sometimes it needs to be done so I don’t get drug from the barn to turn-out and risk a loose horse running down to the road.

When I am referring to frame in my statements I don’t mean just having his head/neck in a particular spot. I am just using that as shorthand to mean he is being ridden in much more contact and working rather than a light contact I might use on a trail ride. I prefer to warm up with very light contact meaning he is taking direction, not rubber necking and being a giraffe and in front of the leg but not on the vertical and fully lifting his back and engaged yet.

[the_sandiest_shoes]

In fairness to Isabell Werth, here is a video of her riding recently, versus in 1995 (there are so, so many more recent videos of her riding, it begs the question why such an old video was used, except to specifically support the idea she rides “like a construction worker”?)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsME6vf_JTA

There are times when a dressage riding woman who isn’t as slim as Laura Graves is called certain names. Not saying that’s what’s happening here, but the construction worker comment isn’t in the best taste I don’t think (especially when using a more recent Klimke video and comparing her to a “feather” - hmmmm).

[ladyj79]

@the sandiest shoes

There are times when a dressage riding woman who isn’t as slim as Laura Graves is called certain names. Not saying that’s what’s happening here, but the construction worker comment isn’t in the best taste I don’t think (especially when using a more recent Klimke video and comparing her to a “feather” - hmmmm).

That’s ok, I’ll say it, this was 100% a slag about Werth’s body type.

[pluvinel]

@ladyj79

That’s ok, I’ll say it, this was 100% a slag about Werth’s body type.

This is pretty oblique language that I don’t understand…slag???

Help me understand here…So is it that you are saying that Werth is fat?

At least she’s not named Karen…who knew…

[Annie_Burton]

Hi again,
If I had found my pics and videos on my previous phone from the competitions I attended less than eleven months ago in Europe, I would have been able to make a more accurate and timely point to illustrate what I was saying. The links I then posted alongside my quick summary were too old (1995, 2009, 2018 respectively) to do a good job of supporting what I was saying, and I regret that. So let me go back over this a bit and smooth the ripples that this has caused.

Bodytype comments: My own comment did not concern Werth’s body type, which is FINE and strong and athletic. I was talking about her riding style. Some of you might want to insist that I do refer to her body, but I can assure you that I am talking about her style. And yes: it is labored and heavy-handed, and I will make an effort to find recent footage from the warmups to illustrate this impression.

1995 footage: this struck me as interesting when I browsed for warmup footage of Werth, since it preceded Anky and Gal and Kittel’s extreme form LDR and rollkur. In this footage Werth is pulling the double bridle from side to side to side to side while slowing him to a crawling submission. I detest this form of riding, have seen it too much on both sides of the atlantic, and I cannot wait for it to end. I know no valid, educated, or decent excuses for it, and have read hundreds, by riders and by wannabes alike.

2018 Aachen warmup footage: makes me want to throw up. Same crap happening, still and again. You don’t need to speak German to watch this special report, just watch. Shameful.

Now, I anticipate a good deal of “you are not riding THIS horse in this very context and are therefore not allowed to comment on these warmups” stuff. I respectfully disagree with that. The warmups are telling, have always been and will always be. And an earlier comment from someone regarding the notion of sport: I adore equestrian sports, I live and breathe them every day. They are my life and passion, and for that reason I am commenting. We are, as a whole, evolving towards kinder and better riding, and discourse will always be part of that evolution.

[mvp]

@ladyj79

That’s ok, I’ll say it, this was 100% a slag about Werth’s body type.

I don’t think her body type was the problem. She uses it in ways that could be better. Not going further into it as I think that’s a fool’s errand in this crowd. But I think your reading of the criticism or Werth is too simple and not the only thing the Anne Burton might have (justifiably) meant to critique.

[Caol_Ila]

I just want to know why the Chieftains are playing in the background of the clip of Isabel Werth and Gigolo. ‘Little Brown Box’ and ‘The Wandering Minstrel’ and some hornpipe (Liverpool??)

Anyway, carry on, lads and lasses.

[kande04]

My opinion here gets way unorthodox, so take it with a grain of salt. I think the emphasis on “submission” comes out of the snaffle-based training program.

I think it’s more about the venues in which these horses are required to perform. It likely started with Rembrandt, and was simply a method to make it possible for him to get through the tests without spooking at the flowers, or something, and losing points. And then he started wining and everyone started imitating his success.

Some of those who started imitating may have actually had similar horses who had trouble focusing, while others just imitated the technique because that’s what the winners were doing.

I remember reading letters to the editor in Dressage and CT pointing out that the horse wasn’t actually collecting, and predicting that what we see now would happen.

And as much as I hate it now, if I had been a serious competitor and my trainer wanted me to ride my horse “rounder” to make it possible to get him into the arena and produce a decent test, there was a point in my life that I would have done it. Or at least I would have done it for awhile, until I reached my limit and decided that no horse should be treated that way and no ribbon, accolades, or amount of money was worth it.

But until I got to that point I would have been defensive about it.

[Annie_Burton]

@Annie Burton

The competitions that I was referring to were CDI4*, CSI4*, CCI4* and CCi4*. We took photos and videos but can’t find them at the moment (buried on last year’s phone) but will look for them.

So, with some delay, sorry — here are photos my friends took at the warmup ring showing a range of riders from different countries, some 4* eventers and Grand Prix riders. I can’t find my own photos, but they sadly all looked the same: [ATTACH=JSON]{“alt”:“Click image for larger version Name: 10.00.10 PM copy.jpg Views: 1 Size: 35.6 KB ID: 10659404”,“data-align”:“none”,“data-attachmentid”:“10659404”,“data-size”:“full”}[/ATTACH]
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On the forehand and eyes forced to stare at the ground. The opposite of stretching forward and down. Forward means = nose forward, back swinging.

The black horse in these photos is the Holstein stud Carantas, by Tannenhofs Carabas, ten years old. Utterly gorgeous and willing. His warmup was ridden like this in its entirety, we watched all 45 minutes of it.

[pluvinel]

What do people think of this horse?

https://www.facebook.com/deckstation.schockemoehle/videos/2702219183346287/

[Jackie_Cochran]

At the trot his hind foot lands before the diagonal fore foot lands.

Decades ago when I subscribed to the Arabian horse breed magazines there were lots and lots of pictures of park (high action horses) who were disunited at the trot. Gladys Brown Edwards did several articles in the Arabian Horse World about this phenomenon, in the 1960s and early 1970s. A lot of the pictures of Park horses showed trots that were completely disunited and the hind legs desperately tried to move at the same speed as the high action front legs.

The modern high action dressage trots remind me A LOT of what I saw in pictures of the Arabian Park horses. I also got to see a Park Horse class at the Arabian Nationals (1971). There were two main contenders for the top place. They had different trots. The one (a *Bask daughter) who actually moved her front and hind legs at approximately the same speed, had a “fly flapper” action in the front legs but her hind legs had an equally high motion (joint flexion) fore and rear. The horse that got the top spot (a *Bask son) was ALL action in the front and boy, did he have very low action in the rear. Back then I never remember seeing a picture of an Arabian in the English saddle seat classes being behind the vertical, of course back then it was still considered a MAJOR SIN in English riding, both saddle seat and hunt seat.

Yes, today’s dressage horses have much better trots than the Arabian Park horses (it’s not that hard if the horse is bred for high action fore and rear) but I see a lot of the problems that those articles by Gladys Brown Edwards pointed out.

As far as poll flexion the horse is decent–until the rider starts pulling hard on the reins, then the neck breaks at the third vertebrae instead of at the poll. If his nostrils were not so expanded due to the physical effort it would be easier to see. Big flaring nostrils can give the illusion that the face is not tending to go behind the vertical.

Yeah, I know, I am not a dressage rider.

[netg]

@pluvinel

What do people think of this horse?

https://www.facebook.com/deckstation.schockemoehle/videos/2702219183346287/

A spectacular horse who I’m amazed can move that much through his body with his neck like that. I tend to think extremely overfaced by the environment rather than the rider wanting the neck that overbent, so I’m more angry about the pressure to make these horses look like fully developed GP horses well before they should look that way, than I am specifically about this riding.

On the IW topic, I strongly dislike watching her ride. In Omaha she was the one rider I had trouble watching at all. My body hurt from tension because of how tensely she rode. However, she also taught. And I loved what she did with her instruction. It was an interesting contrast to me.

[RainWeasley]

I’m curious…I get the frustration with the term “frame” since it tends to encourage thinking too much about the head and neck being fixed, but what’s an “acceptable” term to use when talking about the general outline of a horse as its moving at a specific moment in time? “Headset”? “Outline”? Having to say “position of the head and neck relative to each other and the resr of the body” is a mouthful.

[BigMama1]

@mvp

And another thing! Take x-rays of a 40-year-old ballerina and see if she’d pass your PPE. I’m not an expert, so I’ll defer to your knowledge how dancing, but I’m not sure that the repetition of hyperextension of joints in the name of flexibility isn’t harmful.

Take an X-ray of any athlete who completes at a high level and you will find the same thing. Sport is tough and it is hard on the body - human and equine. Thankfully most of us never train to compete at a high level and neither do our horses. But find me an Olympic athlete in any sport who would pass a PPE

[pluvinel]

@BigMama1

Take an X-ray of any athlete who completes at a high level and you will find the same thing. Sport is tough and it is hard on the body - human and equine. Thankfully most of us never train to compete at a high level and neither do our horses. But find me an Olympic athlete in any sport who would pass a PPE

The difference is that ballerinas and other human athletes all have a free will to decide as to whether they will sacrifice their bodies for their sport.

The horses don’t have a say in their fates.

[mvp]

@pluvinel

The difference is that ballerinas and other human athletes all have a free will to decide as to whether they will sacrifice their bodies for their sport.

The horses don’t have a say in their fates.

Yes, but that’s a bit beside the point that was being discussed.

[ladyj79]

@BigMama1

Take an X-ray of any athlete who completes at a high level and you will find the same thing. Sport is tough and it is hard on the body - human and equine. Thankfully most of us never train to compete at a high level and neither do our horses. But find me an Olympic athlete in any sport who would pass a PPE

As I said much earlier in this thread, there’s a contingent on coth who does not understand sport/athletics, and really seems to hate horse sport. It is a strange phenomenon.

[SuzieQNutter]

One of the reasons we do dressage is to prolong a horses riding life. If we do something that shortens the riding life it is not good dressage.