When and why did this frame go out of style?

[BigMama1]

@pluvinel

The difference is that ballerinas and other human athletes all have a free will to decide as to whether they will sacrifice their bodies for their sport.

The horses don’t have a say in their fates.

They don’t have a say. So should they ever be used by humans? For work? For sport? For pleasure? Made to live “unnatural” lives in ways like having their feet trimmed, being fed grain, or being put in a stall? How far do you want to take this line of reasoning?

I don’t support abuse in any way, shape, or form. But nor do I support the myth that every moment of training involves harmony and rainbows. I don’t support the myth that any amount of contact on the reins, anything that is not strictly “classical,” anything that puts the slightest amount of pressure on the horse is abuse.

[Annie_Burton]

@ladyj79

As I said much earlier in this thread, there’s a contingent on coth who does not understand sport/athletics, and really seems to hate horse sport. It is a strange phenomenon.

You repeat yourself with your sense that people who promote the wellness of the horse are people who “don’t understand” equine sport and athletics, and the repetition doesn’t contribute anything to the thread itself. It polarizes.

Wellness of the horse is an integral part of the sport.

@BigMama1

So should they ever be used by humans? For work? For sport? How far do you want to take this line of reasoning?

I don’t support abuse in any way, shape, or form. But nor do I support the myth that every moment of training involves harmony and rainbows.

Should they ever be used by humans? Yes, absolutely. We are their breeders, partners, and stewards. They are our responsibility.

Harmony is the goal, every rider would agree. The warmup examples above are grave aberrations from the goal, which are currently widespread and need to end, because we can end them by discussing these practices and by becoming better riders.

[Annie_Burton]

@Annie Burton

You repeat yourself with your sense that people who promote the wellness of the horse are people that “don’t understand” equine sport and athletics, and the repetition doesn’t contribute anything to the thread itself. It polarizes.

Wellness of the horse is an integral part of the sport.

@BigMama1

They don’t have a say. So should they ever be used by humans? For work? For sport? For pleasure? Made to live “unnatural” lives in ways like having their feet trimmed, being fed grain, or being put in a stall? How far do you want to take this line of reasoning?

I don’t support abuse in any way, shape, or form. But nor do I support the myth that every moment of training involves harmony and rainbows. I don’t support the myth that any amount of contact on the reins, anything that is not strictly “classical,” anything that puts the slightest amount of pressure on the horse is abuse.

Should they ever be used by humans? Yes, absolutely. We are their stewards.

Harmony is the goal, every rider would agree. The warmup examples above are aberrations from that goal that are widespread and need to end, because we can end them by becoming better riders.

[Annie_Burton]

@BigMama1

So should they ever be used by humans? For work? For sport? How far do you want to take this line of reasoning?

I don’t support abuse in any way, shape, or form. But nor do I support the myth that every moment of training involves harmony and rainbows.

Should they ever be used by humans? Yes, absolutely. We are their breeders, partners, and stewards. They are our responsibility.

Harmony is the goal, every rider would agree. The warmup examples above are grave aberrations from the goal, which are currently widespread and need to end, because we can end them by discussing these practices and by becoming better riders.

[DQ_Foxhunter]

@ladyj79

As I said much earlier in this thread, there’s a contingent on coth who does not understand sport/athletics, and really seems to hate horse sport. It is a strange phenomenon.

I really don’t understand what you are saying, the original photo was of Kyra, who was a correct and successful rider.
I didn’t see anybody slamming showing, just bad riding, which can lead to premature breakdown of horses.
Are you saying to love horse sports we must embrace bad riding?

[ladyj79]

@DQ Foxhunter

I really don’t understand what you are saying, the original photo was of Kyra, who was a correct and successful rider.
I didn’t see anybody slamming showing, just bad riding, which can lead to premature breakdown of horses.
Are you saying to love horse sports we must embrace bad riding?

Yes that is absolutely what I’m saying:rolleyes:

[netg]

@RainWeasley

I’m curious…I get the frustration with the term “frame” since it tends to encourage thinking too much about the head and neck being fixed, but what’s an “acceptable” term to use when talking about the general outline of a horse as its moving at a specific moment in time? “Headset”? “Outline”? Having to say “position of the head and neck relative to each other and the resr of the body” is a mouthful.

I tend to talk about a horse’s carriage and balance, as those affect head position and are affected by the use of false frames.

[SuzieQNutter]

@ladyj79

Yes that is absolutely what I’m saying:rolleyes:

I presume that was sarcasm!

[BigMama1]

@Annie Burton

Should they ever be used by humans? Yes, absolutely. We are their breeders, partners, and stewards. They are our responsibility.

Harmony is the goal, every rider would agree. The warmup examples above are grave aberrations from the goal, which are currently widespread and need to end, because we can end them by discussing these practices and by becoming better riders.

Harmony is the goal, but it’s not always the reality. To get to the goal there are sometimes mistakes and ugly moments along the way. Yet there are many out there who highlight any single moment of confusion, disagreement, or disobedience and publicly label the rider as abusive. In fact there is widely followed Facebook page dedicated to doing just that.

25 years ago a certain style of training and riding was widely used and widely accepted because it was effective, and not widely considered harmful. Now those methods are widely known to be harmful, are not accepted and are not widely used. When we know better, we do better.

Who knows, 25 years from now riders may look in horror at what we think of today as classical, correct, sympathetic training.

[Annie_Burton]

@BigMama1

Harmony is the goal, but it’s not always the reality. To get to the goal there are sometimes mistakes and ugly moments along the way. Yet there are many out there who highlight any single moment of confusion, disagreement, or disobedience and publicly label the rider as abusive. In fact there is widely followed Facebook page dedicated to doing just that.

Goal, yes. People don‘t merely highlight „single moments“ but rather an ongoing, widespread malpractice of training and warming up, in still photos and videos, that has not yet been effectively banned by the FEI and therefore remains front and center in the discussion. And while there are online pages and groups that highlight and criticize this harmful practice, the actual eye-witness demands for overall change on behalf of the horse on the world stage will simply not go away. Watchful observers, riders, competitors, trainers, fans will not stop bringing it up until it ends. The welfare of the horse is central to the Sport of Dressage.

I am not on FB. Discussion deserves a place wherever there is community. If you are done with the topic, simply move on. I am not. Scroll up, read again, look at the photos from eleven months ago. This stuff matters now.

[AZ_TD]

Here is a recent interesting article about the evolution of dressage: https://www.eurodressage.com/2020/05/30/bernard-maurel-evolution-our-sport-and-its-philosophy

[RainWeasley]

@netg

I tend to talk about a horse’s carriage and balance, as those affect head position and are affected by the use of false frames.

Oh yeah, that’s a good way to refer to it.

[eightpondfarm]

@Jackie_Cochran

Decades ago when I subscribed to the Arabian horse breed magazines there were lots and lots of pictures of park (high action horses) who were disunited at the trot. Gladys Brown Edwards did several articles in the Arabian Horse World about this phenomenon, in the 1960s and early 1970s. A lot of the pictures of Park horses showed trots that were completely disunited and the hind legs desperately tried to move at the same speed as the high action front legs.

The modern high action dressage trots remind me A LOT of what I saw in pictures of the Arabian Park horses. I also got to see a Park Horse class at the Arabian Nationals (1971). There were two main contenders for the top place. They had different trots. The one (a *Bask daughter) who actually moved her front and hind legs at approximately the same speed, had a “fly flapper” action in the front legs but her hind legs had an equally high motion (joint flexion) fore and rear. The horse that got the top spot (a *Bask son) was ALL action in the front and boy, did he have very low action in the rear. Back then I never remember seeing a picture of an Arabian in the English saddle seat classes being behind the vertical, of course back then it was still considered a MAJOR SIN in English riding, both saddle seat and hunt seat.

Park …imo, is something a horse is born to, not trained into. I’ve seen the disjointed trained into gaits and it just never works. Dumb judges who put-up those odd-moving horses.

i had a Park harness Morgan mare, by a Nat’l champion park saddle stallion/out of a park saddle grand champion mare. Her hind leg action was naturally equally as high …exactly as high, as her front. She was prior to training in this photo, so au natural, and is along a fence so you can see how equal it is. She has passed, but i still have her daughter, now 21. I drove her all over our country roads and just LOVED her rear view. Her trot was NOT pleasant to ride however lol.