When slaughter is banned;

[jetsmom]

[QUOTE=Sannois;1866305]
How many are not rendered unconscious?? What are the facts?? where are the precentages??[/QUOTE]

The "goal " for a clean, first shot kill for cattle according to the inspection reports on T. Grandin’s website is 90%. That is for cattle with shorter, less mobile necks, in facilities designed for them.

[luvs2ride79]

Abuse is a totally separate issue from slaughter. If you want tougher abuse laws and more enforcement, contact your State Legislators. Get them to pass tougher punishments and get after the local authorities to enforce the laws. You cannot complain if you do not try to do something about it.

The horses that would have gone to slaughter at auctions will be sold at auction, sold privately, donated to a rescue, donated to a theraputic riding center, donated to a vet school, donated to a zoo or big cat sancturary, or humanely euthanized.

Slaughter is going away. The people that frequent auctions (other than killer buyers) will still go to auctions. Prices for auction horses will go down, but the slaughter buyers buy a SMALL percentage of horses. Last year, 80,000 something horses were slaughtered. There are 9.2 MILLION horses in the USA, 3 million of those registered Quarter Horses. Barely 1% of the horse population was slaughtered.

To put things in perspective, the mortality rate for horses is 10%. That means that over 900,000 horses a year die from illness, injury, accident, or natural causes. Those 900,000 horses are burried, rendered, or incinerated. Only 10% of horses slaughtered are old, sick, injured, or otherwise unusbale. So, that means that only 8,000-10,000 more horses a year will need to be put down. The other 70,000 to 80,000 will be in fine shape to stay in the market.

Alive - Died - Would have been Slaughtered
9,200,000 - 900,000 - 90,000 (we’ll round it up to make it look better)

That last number looks pretty insignificant when you consider the other two. At least, it does for someone who has taken classes in statistics and economics. The horse economy will be able to absorb those horses. They didn’t spring up from no where, they were already here.

As for the people employed by the slaughter industry. The truck drivers will drive for someone else. I see LOTS of trucks going down the road with “now hiring drivers” signs on them. The actual plant employees quit on a regular basis anyway (it is a VERY high turnover industry), so they’ll get jobs wherever they normally would. The plant owners are from Belgium (and rich), so I imagine they will go home or start up some other business. The USDA inspectors will still work for the USDA. They will just go on to inspect other slaughter facilities.

The REASON for slaughter is that people in Europe and Asia like to eat horses. That is it! There is NOTHING we can do about that. They are entitled to do what their culture finds acceptable. Slaughter does not control horse population and it is not needed to control horse prices. When horses were at their highest price, slaughter buyers still bought, and paid a premium price (up to $1 a pound on the hoof at one point). The ONLY way to stop horse slaughter is to make it illegal. Nothing you do about breeding or population control will effect the number of horses slaughtered.

The ONLY private sale horses that will be effected (price wise) are those of mediocre or low quality and those that are “common” (breeds or types that already have a saturated market). So, people breeding quality horses that are not in a saturated market and are currently selling for good prices should NOT be effected much. If you think you fall in this categor, but you do end up having problems selling, then you were wrong and/or the market in general in your area is going down (as it has been for the last 5 or 6 years). Breeders that produce quality foals that have a good market, and they (the people) know how to properly market their foals, will survive. When things settled down, prices will go up, prices will be more stable, we will see better horses being bred (since that is where the money will be), and profits will be better than they have in the last 5 years.

I based these opinions and forecasts on my own knowledge of the slaughter industry (which is from independent research of ALL sources, I was pro-slaughter once upon a time), knowledge and experience on both the amature and professional side of the horse industry, and knowledge gained from taking courses at college in economics, statistics, philosophy, history, theory, and research methods. My opinions are not just pulled out of my rear end, or regurgitated from some worthless PETA web site (who I HATE by the way, PETA needs to be blown up…).

Barbara

[JumpingPaints]

[QUOTE=luvs2ride79;1867027]
Abuse is a totally separate issue from slaughter. If you want tougher abuse laws and more enforcement, contact your State Legislators. Get them to pass tougher punishments and get after the local authorities to enforce the laws. You cannot complain if you do not try to do something about it.

The horses that would have gone to slaughter at auctions will be sold at auction, sold privately, donated to a rescue, donated to a theraputic riding center, donated to a vet school, donated to a zoo or big cat sancturary, or humanely euthanized.

Slaughter is going away. The people that frequent auctions (other than killer buyers) will still go to auctions. Prices for auction horses will go down, but the slaughter buyers buy a SMALL percentage of horses. Last year, 80,000 something horses were slaughtered. There are 9.2 MILLION horses in the USA, 3 million of those registered Quarter Horses. Barely 1% of the horse population was slaughtered.

To put things in perspective, the mortality rate for horses is 10%. That means that over 900,000 horses a year die from illness, injury, accident, or natural causes. Those 900,000 horses are burried, rendered, or incinerated. Only 10% of horses slaughtered are old, sick, injured, or otherwise unusbale. So, that means that only 8,000-10,000 more horses a year will need to be put down. The other 70,000 to 80,000 will be in fine shape to stay in the market.

Alive - Died - Would have been Slaughtered
9,200,000 - 900,000 - 90,000 (we’ll round it up to make it look better)

That last number looks pretty insignificant when you consider the other two. At least, it does for someone who has taken classes in statistics and economics. The horse economy will be able to absorb those horses. They didn’t spring up from no where, they were already here.

As for the people employed by the slaughter industry. The truck drivers will drive for someone else. I see LOTS of trucks going down the road with “now hiring drivers” signs on them. The actual plant employees quit on a regular basis anyway (it is a VERY high turnover industry), so they’ll get jobs wherever they normally would. The plant owners are from Belgium (and rich), so I imagine they will go home or start up some other business. The USDA inspectors will still work for the USDA. They will just go on to inspect other slaughter facilities.

The REASON for slaughter is that people in Europe and Asia like to eat horses. That is it! There is NOTHING we can do about that. They are entitled to do what their culture finds acceptable. Slaughter does not control horse population and it is not needed to control horse prices. When horses were at their highest price, slaughter buyers still bought, and paid a premium price (up to $1 a pound on the hoof at one point). The ONLY way to stop horse slaughter is to make it illegal. Nothing you do about breeding or population control will effect the number of horses slaughtered.

The ONLY private sale horses that will be effected (price wise) are those of mediocre or low quality and those that are “common” (breeds or types that already have a saturated market). So, people breeding quality horses that are not in a saturated market and are currently selling for good prices should NOT be effected much. If you think you fall in this categor, but you do end up having problems selling, then you were wrong and/or the market in general in your area is going down (as it has been for the last 5 or 6 years). Breeders that produce quality foals that have a good market, and they (the people) know how to properly market their foals, will survive. When things settled down, prices will go up, prices will be more stable, we will see better horses being bred (since that is where the money will be), and profits will be better than they have in the last 5 years.

I based these opinions and forecasts on my own knowledge of the slaughter industry (which is from independent research of ALL sources, I was pro-slaughter once upon a time), knowledge and experience on both the amature and professional side of the horse industry, and knowledge gained from taking courses at college in economics, statistics, philosophy, history, theory, and research methods. My opinions are not just pulled out of my rear end, or regurgitated from some worthless PETA web site (who I HATE by the way, PETA needs to be blown up…).

Barbara[/QUOTE]

Nicely said.

[spookhorse]

@luvs2ride79;1867027

Abuse is a totally separate issue from slaughter. If you want tougher abuse laws and more enforcement, contact your State Legislators. Get them to pass tougher punishments and get after the local authorities to enforce the laws. You cannot complain if you do not try to do something about it.

The horses that would have gone to slaughter at auctions will be sold at auction, sold privately, donated to a rescue, donated to a theraputic riding center, donated to a vet school, donated to a zoo or big cat sancturary, or humanely euthanized.

Slaughter is going away. The people that frequent auctions (other than killer buyers) will still go to auctions. Prices for auction horses will go down, but the slaughter buyers buy a SMALL percentage of horses. Last year, 80,000 something horses were slaughtered. There are 9.2 MILLION horses in the USA, 3 million of those registered Quarter Horses. Barely 1% of the horse population was slaughtered.

To put things in perspective, the mortality rate for horses is 10%. That means that over 900,000 horses a year die from illness, injury, accident, or natural causes. Those 900,000 horses are burried, rendered, or incinerated. Only 10% of horses slaughtered are old, sick, injured, or otherwise unusbale. So, that means that only 8,000-10,000 more horses a year will need to be put down. The other 70,000 to 80,000 will be in fine shape to stay in the market.

Alive - Died - Would have been Slaughtered
9,200,000 - 900,000 - 90,000 (we’ll round it up to make it look better)

That last number looks pretty insignificant when you consider the other two. At least, it does for someone who has taken classes in statistics and economics. The horse economy will be able to absorb those horses. They didn’t spring up from no where, they were already here.

As for the people employed by the slaughter industry. The truck drivers will drive for someone else. I see LOTS of trucks going down the road with “now hiring drivers” signs on them. The actual plant employees quit on a regular basis anyway (it is a VERY high turnover industry), so they’ll get jobs wherever they normally would. The plant owners are from Belgium (and rich), so I imagine they will go home or start up some other business. The USDA inspectors will still work for the USDA. They will just go on to inspect other slaughter facilities.

The REASON for slaughter is that people in Europe and Asia like to eat horses. That is it! There is NOTHING we can do about that. They are entitled to do what their culture finds acceptable. Slaughter does not control horse population and it is not needed to control horse prices. When horses were at their highest price, slaughter buyers still bought, and paid a premium price (up to $1 a pound on the hoof at one point). The ONLY way to stop horse slaughter is to make it illegal. Nothing you do about breeding or population control will effect the number of horses slaughtered.

The ONLY private sale horses that will be effected (price wise) are those of mediocre or low quality and those that are “common” (breeds or types that already have a saturated market). So, people breeding quality horses that are not in a saturated market and are currently selling for good prices should NOT be effected much. If you think you fall in this categor, but you do end up having problems selling, then you were wrong and/or the market in general in your area is going down (as it has been for the last 5 or 6 years). Breeders that produce quality foals that have a good market, and they (the people) know how to properly market their foals, will survive. When things settled down, prices will go up, prices will be more stable, we will see better horses being bred (since that is where the money will be), and profits will be better than they have in the last 5 years.

I based these opinions and forecasts on my own knowledge of the slaughter industry (which is from independent research of ALL sources, I was pro-slaughter once upon a time), knowledge and experience on both the amature and professional side of the horse industry, and knowledge gained from taking courses at college in economics, statistics, philosophy, history, theory, and research methods. My opinions are not just pulled out of my rear end, or regurgitated from some worthless PETA web site (who I HATE by the way, PETA needs to be blown up…).

Barbara

What she said! :yes:

[summerhorse]

Ditto! Excellent post Barbara!

[Ridge_Runner]

Yes, very well said Barbara. Now that is a logical, non emotional and credible analysis of the effects of banning slaughter…not the ridiculous nonsense of 90,000 horses suddenly abused, neglected and turned loose to fend for themselves that the pro slaughter folks and apologists keep repeating over and over despite the fact it goes against the laws of economics, historical fact, and basic common sense.

[county]

Basic common sense. well to be honest I don’t see much of that from the anti side so I’m guessing the definition is differant things to differant people. So the people who work in the slaughter houses just change jobs all the time? Lies, I work with some that have been in the same plants for over 30 years. Some change often but then theres lots of jobs that have that do we really want to outlaw something because of it?

[SLW]

The Britts have banned foxhunting thanks to anti’s. It probably would not be to hard to trace PETA and it’s cousins link to the no-slaughter push in this country which is different than most of the COTH regulars who sincerely care about the horse.

I do not think that for one minute MOST of the Representatives who co-sponsered for this bill are sincere, really in it because they care about the horse. Here is why, the co-sponsors w/ Sweeny from NY. http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/D?d109:1:./temp/~bd2HkL:@@@P|/bss/d109query.html|

From that list look at who is up for relection this Nov, scroll down to find your state: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_House_elections%2C_2006_complete_list#Alabama

This recent vote makes for “feel good” campaign trail talk but it did not solve the needs for unwanted horses other than they may not be sold to be eaten.

[LarkspurCO]

[QUOTE=county;1867188]
So the people who work in the slaughter houses just change jobs all the time? Lies, I work with some that have been in the same plants for over 30 years.[/QUOTE]

So what? Industries come and go, jobs come and go. They always have and always will. There is no such thing as a permanent or guaranteed job. Get over it. Recall the Industrial Revolution, the combine, the cotton gin, automation, computerization, robotics, automotive manufacturing, off-shoring. Who works in restaurants, puts up drywall, lays asphalt now? Illegal aliens. Who used to do it? Americans.

[jetsmom]

[QUOTE=SLW;1867216]

I do not think that for one minute MOST of the Representatives who co-sponsered for this bill are sincere, really in it because they care about the horse. Here is why, the co-sponsors w/ Sweeny from NY. http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/D?d109:1:./temp/~bd2HkL:@@@P|/bss/d109query.html|

From that list look at who is up for relection this Nov, scroll down to find your state: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_House_elections%2C_2006_complete_list#Alabama

This recent vote makes for “feel good” campaign trail talk but it did not solve the needs for unwanted horses other than they may not be sold to be eaten.[/QUOTE]

Actually, if they are up for re-election, and voted in a way designed to garner the most votes, then, they voted in a manner consistant with the desires of the majority of their constituents. Sounds like they are doing what they are supposed to do.

[luvmytbs]

[INDENT]

@SLW;1867216

The Britts have banned foxhunting thanks to anti’s. It probably would not be to hard to trace PETA and it’s cousins link to the no-slaughter push in this country which is different than most of the COTH regulars who sincerely care about the horse.

[/INDENT][quote=SLW;1867216]

[INDENT]I do not think that for one minute MOST of the Representatives who co-sponsered for this bill are sincere, really in it because they care about the horse. Here is why, the co-sponsors w/ Sweeny from NY. http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/D?d109:1:./temp/~bd2HkL:@@@P|/bss/d109query.html| [/INDENT]

[INDENT]From that list look at who is up for relection this Nov, scroll down to find your state: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_House_elections%2C_2006_complete_list#Alabama[/INDENT]

[INDENT]This recent vote makes for “feel good” campaign trail talk but it did not solve the needs for unwanted horses other than they may not be sold to be eaten.[/INDENT]
[/quote]

[INDENT]Most everybody on that list is up for re-election. What’s your point? Are you trying to tell us that the majority of voters are horse people? I would say the large majority of voters could care less about horses.
I can tell you that 90% of my co-workers don’t even know that horse slaughter exists, and that is in the Bluegrass State.
[/INDENT]

[county]

So if thats the way to look at it why not coime out and say so rather then there jobs that change hands all the time? If you don’t care about peoples jobs that doesn’t mean they don’t. And illegal aliens do americans jobs. Who hires them?

[JumpingPaints]

@SLW;1867216

The Britts have banned foxhunting thanks to anti’s.

Anti-slaughter people caused the live hunt ban??? Or do you just mean anyone who is anti-something pushing for change (anti-slavery, anti-child abuse) etc?

[QUOTE=SLW;1867216]It probably would not be to hard to trace PETA and it’s cousins link to the no-slaughter push in this country which is different than most of the COTH regulars who sincerely care about the horse.
[/quote]
Yes, I’m sure PETA - and almost every other organization whose focus is the humane treatment of animals - has helped drive the ban. And I think there was a poll in Off Course recently where around 60% of COTH “regulars” who “sincerely care about the horse” were in support of the ban.

[SLW]

There is a difference between PETA/Animal rights groups agenda and people who support animal welfare. Clear enough? Anti’s/Animal rights groups/PETA worked to get foxhunting banned in GB. First step down the slope and a loss of sport. Do I think Anti’s are a measureable force of the no slaughter ban in the US? Yes. Do I think PETA represents the COTH regulars? No, only a small percentage.

JumpingPaints-In the foxhunting debates last year you would have seen “Anti’s” used and understood that meant animal rights groups and not the Anti-Slaughter movement in America. PETA’s focus does not stop at the humane treatment of animals and you know that. Among other things, they want a lifestyle change- go veggin.

Something to consider. From PETA’s own site: PETA operates under the simple principle that animals are not ours to eat, wear, experiment on, or use for entertainment." Horse shows, 3 day eventing, dressage, trail riding…that is all fair game to halt in PETA’s eyes. Politics makes for strange bedfellows.

In hindsight I agree w/ Jetsmom, the votes cast probably do reflect the opinions of the people in the Representatives voting district. People far removed from livestock and the daily demands they require would be upset at the thought of slaughter as an outcome. Did that vote help horses? Did it provide a new outlet for those horses?

[county]

Thats the biggest reason I’m against the bill just passed. It does nothing to help the problem or the problems that will come up. Doesn’t even address them in anyway.

IMO its much like when blacks were freed from slavery. They got freedom and then what? It may have been great they were free but no thought was ever given to how they would handle it. No thought was given to the future here either with banning slaughter.

My guess is the Senate won’t pass anything unless some problems are addressed first. They know it will go to court otherwise and one thing politicians do not like is a new law they just passed getting thrown out of court.

[ProzacPuppy]

The quote by Gandhi is brilliant.

To County- Re the idea that the eating of flesh from animals that died in fear and pain - It IS a medical fact that those emotions cause many biochemical changes in the body (of all mammals) including the release of various neurohormones etc. It is a fact that the body stops processing of biochemicals, hormones, drugs etc upon death. Questions remain as to how these things are dealt with in the ingestor’s body but we learn more about neurochemical actions all the time and research is finding that hormones and neurochemicals have a huge impact on our physical and mental health.

Look at statistics on cancer rates in nations that have a high per capita consumption of flesh. Makes you wonder, doesn’t it?

Some cultures, in which killing and eating of flesh is considered anathema, have believed for a thousand years (long before medical proof was available) that ingesting these “emotions” will upset the meridians and damage your chi.

Question to County - What auctions in the US have you been to where horses are selling for $300,000 (short of one of the Fasig Tipton sales)? And do you breed horses that sell through F-T? The only horses I know besides TB bloodstock that goes for that sort of price is ALWAYS private sales.

[ProzacPuppy]

I’m thinking most of the horses granted freedom due to the anti-slaughter bill will move to Houston and demand that FEMA give them housing.

[county]

I don’t disagree at all about the eating thing, same thing applies with all livestock.

What sales? The NCHA sales in TX. every Dec. The guy who played Captain Kirk on star trek I beleive holds the record for high selling brood mare there was I beleive $360,000 two years ago he bought another for $310,000 at the same sale.

[LarkspurCO]

[QUOTE=county;1867304]
So if thats the way to look at it why not coime out and say so rather then there jobs that change hands all the time? If you don’t care about peoples jobs that doesn’t mean they don’t. And illegal aliens do americans jobs. Who hires them?[/QUOTE]

I never said I did or didn’t care about their jobs, and I know nothing about the turnover rate. I just don’t think it is any sort of justification to keep slaughterhouses open.

I don’t consider my job security to be anyone’s responsibility other than my own. The skills I had two years ago are not marketable today. If I did not continuously re-educate myself to keep pace with technology, I would lhave to find some other line of work.

[county]

Well the way I read it the poster more or less said " who cares about the jobs some of them quit after a short time anyway " I can tell you first hand lots of people in slaughter housdes care about their jobs very much. No differant then anyone one else that has any other job.