Your kidding right EL? Your saying that no anti slaughter people here have said theres only one way to look at it and thats a 100% ban no matter what. Be honest you know very well there are.
And I’ve never offered any suggestions? Either you missed then every time or you pick and choose what you read.
[QUOTE=ProzacPuppy;1879131]
After a little searching I am unable to find any “across the board” legislation banning the sale of dogs for food in some states. It appears that laws prohibiting the sale of dogs for consumption are state by state.
Hypothetically speaking- If you found that your neighbor was raising dogs for sale as food would it be considered “just making a living”? Technically it appears that the scenario is a possibility in some states. Is there a line where “just making a living” crosses into being culturally and ethically reprehensible?
After reading the “Percheron” rescue thread I don’t see how anyone can still justify the transportation and treatment (or lack thereof) of these animals to make a couple dollars. Dead and dying horses cannot and should not be shrugged off as “just trying to make a living”.
When I lived in NJ one of our neighbors was a soldier in a crime family. I suppose this can also be excused as merely making a living. (He is actually now at Rahway for an extended stay I believe).[/QUOTE]
That’s because until some cultures established large populations it simply wasn’t a problem. Americans don’t eat dogs and cats and you generally don’t make laws against something that isn’t a problem. With some immigrant cultures in some areas it has BECOME a problem and thus now some areas are having to put legislation in place against it.
As far as providing for animals (post above) I think the laws vary widely from state to state but most have some sort of language that requires the owner to seek medical care if the animal is sick or injured and requires ADEQUATE food and shelter. Thus if your horse is starving to death on your 3 blades of grass dirt lot or your pasture of ragweed then you are not providing ADEQUATE food. If your horse has teeth problems you have to provide adequate food for that too. It would be CHEAPER to fix the teeth but if you want to pour tons of senior feed into him instead it’s probably legal as long as the horse is still eating (teeth get bad enough they may stop eating or eating enough). that’s why they have body score scales so they can determine if what you are providing is adequate or not. For some horses grass is NOT adequate. In fact some horses can’t even eat grass.
[QUOTE=county;1879155]
Your kidding right EL? Your saying that no anti slaughter people here have said theres only one way to look at it and thats a 100% ban no matter what. Be honest you know very well there are.
And I’ve never offered any suggestions? Either you missed then every time or you pick and choose what you read.[/QUOTE]
No county, I didn’t say that at all. 
If you re-read my post I said in paragraph 2 that many on this BB that are labeled “anti” have offered up suggestions for helping in whatever way they can when/if the Senate bill passes and horseslaughter becomes illegal.
Those labeled “pro” haven’t provided any alternatives except to say that slaughter is the same as euthanasia, we’ll have excess dead & alive horses, horses will be rotting in fields, and the best of them all…Rep. Salazar (D) CO worrying that banning horseslaughter would lead to the banning of elk hunting (HR 503 hearing):eek: . He is a rancher that uses horses and, instead of putting a bullet to the head, wants to be able to send them to slaughter. Some of the most disturbing pictures of feedlot horses come from no other than CO. Hmmm.
If this becomes law I’m sure it won’t take long for AAEP and other “pro” groups to start campaigning for something else…hopefully it will be encouraging the reporting of abuse/neglect, establishing breed rescues, etc. among other things.
You’ll have to refresh my memory on your “suggestions” because I can only find the livestock, auction & personal property stuff. 
My point was if your honest theres many people here that would only go to the polls because there 100% against slaughter no matter what. If its bad for one side to be and your open minded then I’d think its also bad for the other side.
As I’ve mentioned many times I think if your actually concerned about things concerning slaughter it would only make sense for these anti slaughter groups to work hand in hand with pro slaughter groups and the p[lants to change and improve conditions. What happens when the ban is voted down? Then there you sit, youv’e pissed off the people that can make the changes without having to use the politicians. By attacking people you destroy any chance of getting support from them. Why not work with them most don’t like certain things any more then you do but when there trying to fight off attacks there hardly going to work to make changes.
Unless your in that group of people that vote for gun control, abortion etc. no matter what.
The only one I remember you suggest was that improvements be made in the kill floors for horses but I have not yet heard one good idea from anyone on how to do that.
Honestly…if you made any others, I missed them too…
You obviously missed trhe one right before your last post also.
OK you’re right…I missed your suggestion in that post that both groups work together…but you are so sure that the ban will be voted down? What if it passes? What will the pro slaughter folks do then? You said that you will quit rescuing…even though you probably could still do so as a not for profit if you wanted to with little risk to your breeding and farm business.
I actually plan to open a rescue at my farm at some point. It may not be right away until I can get the farm business going well as we’ve only been here a year…but I will do what I can on a smaller scale until then.
Thats the question I’ve been asking the other side thats so sure the bill passes. What do you do if it doesn’t? Keep pissing everyone off that can help you make changes? To me thats putting your own agenda ahead of horses.
And your right I could keep doing rescue if I wanted to lose meney.
But I don’t want to. I put myself, my farm, my family, and the livestock I have here ahead of others. And money is what makes this place keep going. Without it were all out of a place to live and operate our business.
LMAO!!
[QUOTE=equinelaundry;1879149]
No ma’am, your attitude is sad. And what’s even sadder is that you have posted time and time again on these slaughter threads but you have never ever offered ANY suggestions besides voting against the bills so personal rights won’t be trampled on. :rolleyes: Reminds me of people who only go to polls for race or guns.
Many “anti’s” have offered up solutions and suggestions for both their communities and states, along with supporting the federal ban. What are your suggestions? J Swan has offered up many excellent points although they don’t all pertain to horses. County has a soft spot for livestock but he has also yet to offer any suggestions.
I might have missed your answer as these threads go on & on but I’ll ask again as I do on all the threads you post on in regards to this subject…what are your suggestions?[/QUOTE]
You forget EL I am not against Horse slaughter, Would not do it for my own horses, And Dont want to see the bad ways they are shipped, but There is obviously a need for it. How much clearer do I need to make it!!
We anti folks get called emotional and hypocritical but…someone who says horse slaughter is OK as long as it’s not my horse…to me, that is hypocritical. I have to respect County for being one of the few pro slaughter people on this board willing to sell a horse at an auction knowing it will be put through that process.
[INDENT]
How do you figure there is a “need” for it?
The horse slaughter addressed by HR 503 exists for only one reason: monetary gains.
If foreign countries would stop importing our horsemeat tomorrow, those three plants would be out of business, period.
[/INDENT]
[QUOTE=Sannois;1879802]
You forget EL I am not against Horse slaughter, Would not do it for my own horses, And Dont want to see the bad ways they are shipped, but There is obviously a need for it. How much clearer do I need to make it!!
[/QUOTE]
I assumed you were not against slaughter but rather for it, you’ve made that clear.
Still waiting for suggestions/solutions rather than “a need for it”. That’s just a convenient excuse at this point with horses.
In case you’ve been living with your eyes shut, 99% of EVERYTHING everybody does is for “monetary gains”. These “monetary gains” come from filling a “need” (which for the purpose of the marketplace is practically synonymous with a “want”).
Does your electrical company keep the juice coming to your house because you have such a charming personality?
Does your grocery store keep you fat and sassy for free?
Does your bank hand out free cash on the street corner?
Do oil companies gouge around in the dirt trying to hit a gusher 'cuz it’s just so damn much fun?
Does your auto dealer give you a new car every year 'cuz it gives him a warm and fuzzy?
Do you do whatever you do that you expect to provide your living (assuming it’s actually something productive and not living off the government or relatives) for free?
And then there’s all those trainers, instructors, vets, equine massage therapists/chiropractors, horse show judges, horse transporters, horse trailer manufacterers, feed dealers, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, who so dastardly expect “monetary gain” from their activity. :rolleyes:
[QUOTE=county;1879417]
My point was if your honest theres many people here that would only go to the polls because there 100% against slaughter no matter what. If its bad for one side to be and your open minded then I’d think its also bad for the other side.
As I’ve mentioned many times I think if your actually concerned about things concerning slaughter it would only make sense for these anti slaughter groups to work hand in hand with pro slaughter groups and the p[lants to change and improve conditions. What happens when the ban is voted down? Then there you sit, youv’e pissed off the people that can make the changes without having to use the politicians. By attacking people you destroy any chance of getting support from them. Why not work with them most don’t like certain things any more then you do but when there trying to fight off attacks there hardly going to work to make changes.
Unless your in that group of people that vote for gun control, abortion etc. no matter what.[/QUOTE]
Hey Mr. Closet Softie…Same could be said for the “pro” folks. :yes: How are they going to compromise if/when a ban is the law? How are they going to work with the “anti” folks?
I’m sure that if the slaughter plants had listened to the concerns of the folks who have been fighting this for years then some kind of compromise could have been reached. But no:no: , transport laws are regularly broken, horses that need to be euthanized aren’t, auction yards have become the dumping ground for getting out of the responsibility of horse ownership and responsible breeding, and clearly those at the state & federal level do nothing to enforce laws already on the books. History tells the story of revolts when men do nothing.
Personally, the only “pro” person I think I’ve pissed off is Sannois.
Those deeply involved in rescue work, on more than just an emotional level, know that you can catch more bees with honey.:winkgrin:
ROTFLMAO Ah yes the old anti slogan " OMG there in business to make money " well duh what in the world is business for? Do you think all trhe U.S. companies all across the world are in business in other countries because there handing out lolipops? Good lord get real of course there in business to make money aren’t we all? Or does someone hand you money every month just for the hell of it?
What will pro slaughter people do if slaughter is banned? Nothing they can do really if its banned. My business doesn’t change at all exzcept I stop rehash and rescue abused and neglected horses. A number of others have told me the same thing if no meat buyers are at sales they quit buying horses. Myself I never buy at sales except breeding stock. My feeling has always been why buy at a salke theres peole there to buy them any way. I buy from private parties or take in some people give up.
Buying at a sale to me has always been nuts anyway. Everytime I go to the low end sales I sit and laugh at the rescue people. They bid against each other to get the cripples, injured, etc. I know the meat buyers very well and they rarely bid on those horses there after young healthy ones. The rescue people run each other up to get the rejects, pat themselves on the back for great deeds, and let the ones go to slaughter they could have actually prevented in the first place. To me would make a whole lot more sense to buy the horses the meat buyers are after that are young and healthy. Take them home, train them, then resell and use the money to save more from slaughter.
Instead they take all the ones with health issues, poor a ton of money in them for feed, vet care, farrier work, etc Then end up with a horse that very few people want and arenb’t going to pay nearly what was spent on them.
You can’t save them all, why not save as many as you can as cheaply as you can?
Oh thats right your not supposed to be in business for money. Of course its alright if you can get someone else to foot your bills.
O simply dont believe…
[QUOTE=Daydream Believer;1879833]
We anti folks get called emotional and hypocritical but…someone who says horse slaughter is OK as long as it’s not my horse…to me, that is hypocritical. I have to respect County for being one of the few pro slaughter people on this board willing to sell a horse at an auction knowing it will be put through that process.[/QUOTE]
In telling others what they can and cannot do with their personal property!
I think there sre worse things horses go thru. Would I like to see it done, I have seen cattle slaughtered… Not pretty but relativly quick… I love horses they have been a huge part of my life, I take responsibility for mine. I am not about to go around telling others how they can dispose of their animals. I believe in responsible humane care for all animals, I also recognize that horses are dear to our hearts and that emotion comes into play. I dont think its healthy to make decisions based on emotions. I dont think banning slaughter is right, like I said before, what else will be next?? Keeping horses for pleasure?? No one really looks at the long term effects of this ban, ITs always the same, IT will all work out, there will be homes for all of them. Sorry If you think I am callous, I do know what happens at auctions, HAve bought several schoolies out of kill pens over the years. One mare in particular gave me a lovely filly. Have I sold horses at auction, a few, And yes I knew who the kill buyers were. Did any go to the killers?? Maybe! I dont still know that there is all that many bad kills in horse slaughter, No one has shown us hard facts. Afew videos out of how many horses slaughtered. IF people want to eat horses, thats their choice.
I have stated this many times on many of the threads. As have others. Just because I dont choose to send mine to slaughter why does that make me a hypocrite?
[QUOTE=county;1879891]
Buying at a sale to me has always been nuts anyway. Everytime I go to the low end sales I sit and laugh at the rescue people. They bid against each other to get the cripples, injured, etc. I know the meat buyers very well and they rarely bid on those horses there after young healthy ones. The rescue people run each other up to get the rejects, pat themselves on the back for great deeds, and let the ones go to slaughter they could have actually prevented in the first place. To me would make a whole lot more sense to buy the horses the meat buyers are after that are young and healthy. Take them home, train them, then resell and use the money to save more from slaughter.
Instead they take all the ones with health issues, poor a ton of money in them for feed, vet care, farrier work, etc Then end up with a horse that very few people want and arenb’t going to pay nearly what was spent on them.
You can’t save them all, why not save as many as you can as cheaply as you can?
Oh thats right your not supposed to be in business for money. Of course its alright if you can get someone else to foot your bills.[/QUOTE]
Ahhhh- could I actually agree with you on something. Lord help me
I absolutely think it’s nuts that rescues go in and find the most pathetic animal in the lot- if they brought it home to euthanize I would not have a problem but no they insist on pumping $$ into it.
I’ve personally taken in some fresh off track horse- gave them some R&R, started some basic saddle training and rehomed. I do not consider that rescue- I consider that broadening the appeal of the horse to a larger market. I would equally LOVE if more ‘rescues’ would actually do this- with other horse too (and not just racers there are plenty of retiring performance animals out there). The rescues who fill up their (viable placement oppurtunity slots) with ‘lifers’- who are extremely elderly and chronic lame are not doing a service to the general community. Don’t think I’m all old horses are euthanazia fodder but far too many are and they need to draw limit lines.
I’d actually like to see rescues operate more profitably. Just because your 501c3 doesn means you can’t have a bank roll.
As I’ve said over and over- I’ve been to the auctions- low end and high end. Meat buyers look for the good flesh horses. If there is any indication that the horse could be compromised on the trip they will NOT bid it. Likewise some meat buyers do resell some stock to attempt to fetch higher prices so they look for a good deal on good horses.
But don’t dump skinny- older than dirt- bay mare at auction- it’s not a ‘viable euthanasia’ option because she might not even be bought by a meat man!Then what do you do??? Back to the 2 other options of shooting her yourself and calling the vet and not you’ve wasted gas money!
Takes more than that to get
me angry EL. Nope Not mad at all. I choose to be responsible for my animals end. If others choose to use slaughter, most are not old and infirmed I know that, then thats there right. I dont pierce or tattoo my body, think its ugly, do I think others should be told not to do it?? no. Lots of things in life folks dont agree with, Cant change the world. Abuse is far worse in the form of starvation and bad care. Those are issues I think are important. Educating people on proper care of horses. Just my own personl opinion. Sorry You find it so hard to understand.
I think theres need for slaughter be it equine, bovine, poultry, whatever kind of livestock. Without it those who want to eat meat of that species don’t have it to eat.
[INDENT]
The way sannois was presesenting her point of need, was not from the business side (for human consumption purposes), but rather the “need” of horse owners for slaughter to exist to dispose of their horses.
Just because there is a “want = need” in some countries to indulge in viewing sexual activities between human and animal (a certain nightclub in Amsterdam comes to mind) doesn’t mean we are going to jump at that monetary gain business option and produce videos of such activities in the US.
[/INDENT]
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